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I have provided infomation from a reputable source that understands thermodynamics and you discard it as meaningless.....Amazing _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Just answer the question I ask you. Here it is again. If a bullet, is let say .500, according to you the force trauma comes from the actual bullet, it that was the case, the tissue damage would not be but a little over the diameter of the bullet, so let me ask you this question. What causes the 3 to 4 inch wound channel? If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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You guys just don't get it, it's VOODOO, not blunt force, muzzle energy, energy transfer or whatever else, just plain VOODOO! Sorry, just trying to add some levity to this post.........  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Yea that's it...lol at least it sounds good to me. From know on bullets kill by voodoo... We will call it voodoo ballistics.... If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Bullet design has to mean a lot, otherwise we would just care about caliber and energy. Obviously FMJ, a wide flatpoint hardcast, JHP and all copper JHP's give different results, even if they are of the same caliber and have the same energy at impact. It is interesting to me that several loads in different calibers that obtain around 400-500 ft-lbs are held in high regard (357 125gr, 40 155gr, 45ACP 230gr) all with JHP. But it’s just an observation or maybe a rule of thumb of what may be good to try. I personally find the problem way too complex to solve with a simple calculation, craft in the almost frictionless vacuum of space are a much easier problem. Turbulent flow and the various different materials a bullet would pass through sounds like modeling a car wreck in a waterfall, nothing I want to touch. Tests like was done at the start of this thread and of course whatever real world shooting that can be found will get me far closer to reality IMHO. The design of the tests will always be open to criticism but I think they are about the best we can get for now. As always the biggest variable we can control is how true the aim is. The Miami shootout that started a lot of this worry (at least in law enforcement) was more about bad aim than bad guns and loads IMO. | |||
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What a complex ( and controversial ) topic ! Well, the problem is that most of the people talk and think about Stopping Power or Wounding Power without really understanding the way it works, under differents situation. A good hunting load is not necessary a good defense load, or a good war load. Simply because the needs are not the same. Some will prefer penetration in flesh or against protection, others prefer wide wounding channel, others a compromise. Kinetic Energy is an interesting indicator for several things (like primary penetration), be is not accurate for quantify wounding power, IMO. Momentum is more precise, but it don't reflect the effect of high velocities. So, I have my personal formula for quantify Wounding Potential = MV x W / 1000 where MV = if velocity < 1100 fps , and (velocity-1100) x 2 + 1100 if velocity > 1100 fps W = Weight in grains But, this is only potential. Only tests can show how it is used. Divide the WP by the penetration, and multiplicate by the needed penetration for the target, is a good indicator of the wounding effect. For defense against men, I think 12" of penetration is needed. So, a .45ACP HP ( WP = 195, Pen=12" ) has an efficiency of 195. A .45ACP FMJ ( WP = 195, Pen=27 ) has an efficiency of 87. A .223 M193 ( WP = 275, Pen=17 ) has an efficiency of 194. A 9mm HP ( WP = 150 , Pen= 12 ) has an efficiency of 150. Of course, this formula is far from being perfect ! But all other formulas being inaccurate, too, I follow mine  ( just my 2 cents about wounding power. ) | |||
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...there is only one problem with all this...this ain't rocket science... You can have all the energy transfer theories you want but there is one factor that can not be measured..the reaction of the individual or animal being shot. Unless the central nervous system is hit all bets are off as to what an animal or human will do when hit. Some lay down and die with a non-lethal hit to an extremity and others will continue to run or fight when shot to pieces... One can measure the effect on a jug of water, pile of wet newspaper or calibrated ballistic gelatin but it has little to no correlation when a living breathing object takes the hit... Bob | |||
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I like that test. The XPB penetrated more from speed. Bullet construction and speed have as much to do with penetration as weight does it seems. I also think the the speed at which the bullet expands can make a difference also. The rem bullet and the xpb are near identical expansion so I would leave bullet design out of the equation for the difference in penetration. Except for not knowing the rate at which the petals open and put on the brakes. If the Rem bullet was going the same speed as the XPB I bet it would penetrate more assuming the bullet maintained a small mushroom without coming to pieces or expanding wider. But that is just me. -------------------- THANOS WAS RIGHT! | |||
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dao: Interesting formula...lots of "makes sense logic" in it. Is there any scientific basis for 1,100 fps, or just your experience? dvnv | |||
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The reaction of the individual or animal being shot can not be anticipated and or measure before hand is a fact.... The teating of ammo give one a resonable idea of bullet performance and nothing else... "The first law of Thermodynamics requires conservation of total enrgy in any collision, but this information is not useful in analysis of the collision because there is no direct way to determine what fraction of the kinetic energy is transformed into other forms of energy (usually most of this is heat or thermal energy)" "Foot pounds is the Unit typicaly used in ballistics and many other dynamics problems. The British Thermal Unit (BTU) is often used for "heat energy"; one BTU equals approximately 778.1 foot pounds. Joule is the unit of energy in metric (or standard international) units' one joule is equal to one newton meter or one watt secound, and equals approximately 0.73756 foot pounds." The above quotes are by Duncan MacPhearson and are technicaly and scientificaly correct.... _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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If energy means nothing, why does anyone need anything bigger than the 44 Mag, 45 Colt or 480 Ruger. The only thing other rounds such as the 445 Mag 454 Casull 460 mag or 475 L give is a faster bullet with more energy. So if energy is meaningless, why is there a need for more speed. Other than some added penetration, and even that is subject to bullet construction, why the need for more speed? Could it be down range ballistics, needing more velocity and energy to efficiently kill? If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Heavier bullets (more mass)for greater momentum, larger frontal area (greater applied direct force), greater volume of hydrolic pressure) to crush more tissue for a larger diameter wound channel as well as deeper  penetration......_____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Why not just use rifle. Why ask why.... drink Bud dry. -------------------- THANOS WAS RIGHT! | |||
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Because it's too easy!  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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RMiller, your signature line says it all _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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You need to go to the Barnes bullet web site and order there Bullet Myths Busted DVD it is free. I think you may be surprised at how energy transfer aids in wounds and also shows how it does transfer as hydraulic shock as well. Like I said from the very first post I ever made on the subject, it is not just holes that kill. It is shot placement, bullet construction and energy that kill. This information come from people the manufacture bullets and know what it takes to kill an animal. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Because it would not be handgun hunting, now would it????? Any smuck can use a rifle, it takes more practice and dedication to use a handgun, just like bow hunting. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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HaHa!! Exactly!! It's just too damn easy! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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I have that DVD..... "The first law of Thermodynamics requires conservation of total enrgy in any collision, but this information is not useful in analysis of the collision because there is no direct way to determine what fraction of the kinetic energy is transformed into other forms of energy (usually most of this is heat or thermal energy)" "Foot pounds is the Unit typicaly used in ballistics and many other dynamics problems. The British Thermal Unit (BTU) is often used for "heat energy"; one BTU equals approximately 778.1 foot pounds. Joule is the unit of energy in metric (or standard international) units' one joule is equal to one newton meter or one watt secound, and equals approximately 0.73756 foot pounds." Basic Laws of science, if you can dissprove them, then a Pultzer Price in Science will be a Cinch for you... Good Luck... _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Hey, I watched that video last night.......actually, myth Number 5 was "Bullet energy is the best guide to killing power". The owner of Barnes stated that while energy is important, it is often overrated. The example he used was two 280-lb rams colliding and developing 5,400 ft-lbs but they are not badly hurt in the collision. He also went on to say that bullet design is more important, and I quote: "bullet placement and performance are far more important than foot-pounds of energy".........myth busted! Hey, just reporting on the DVD....... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Whitworth, OK you watched the video, and he did says energy is not the ONLY factor. Which I have said all along. Yes you cannot just use energy as the determining factor. But what did you guys not understand about when they talked about energy transfer, hydrostatic shock??? Did you here about how bullet construction, shot placement and hydrostatic shock is what causes major wound damage? I guess you missed that part. Do you recall what Chuck Yager said? The shock wave is what does the damage, "hydrostatic shock". When you shoot a ground hogs with a bullet, please tell me what causes it to blow up when hit with a bullet constructed to blow up on impact. I know the answer, it is you guys that don't want to say it. It is not the bullet blowing up , but the energy "hydrostatic shock" that does it. JWP it is not heat or thermal energy. JWP475, what you fail to see and the examples you give have no relationship to what bullets do. You keep quoting BTU and heat or thermal energy. Not the same as hydrostatic shock, big difference. If you spend more time trying not to be a rocket scientist and opened you mind to bullets and ballistic's you might learn something. Quit reading books by Duncan MacPhearson. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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You mean the comparison with the airplane breaking the sound barrier......  Hang on a second, there is a good reason that ground hog killing isn't relevant in this conversation, and something obvious and always ignored. Speed does play a roll, but there is another factor that is being overlooked. Even a 500 grain bullet in a 1,000-lb animal is tiny relative to the mass it is hitting. This is not the case with a ground hog where the body mass of the animal is minimal, and the bullet (relatively speaking) is rather large in comparison. To put things on equal footing, you would have to hit the 1,000-lb animal with a 105mm shell (not an explosive shell), which would probably blow the large animal to pieces as well, particularly if pushed to 4,000 feet per second like a varmint bullet. The miniscule 500 grain bullet will never do that, so I don't know how that is really relevant. Also, varmint bullets are frangible and designed to come apart upon impact....... This is why I don't like the ground hog example. The bullet size to animal mass ratio plays a roll in the reaction of the animal when hit with a bullet.......I may be reaching a bit, but you never hear anyone taking this into consideration. Yes, many factors come into play and I understand the fixation on speed and the explosive results of the bullet striking something solid, but our handguns don't and can't push bullets at high velocities....... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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King Rodent is amused!   Sic Semper Tyrannis | |||
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This is why I believe that handguns and rifles don't necesarily wound in the same way. We will never get the speed the rifle will. Nor will a dangerous game rifle in a large caliber, as no one could shoot a rifle throwing a 600 grain projectile that travels at 3,500 fps, and if they could it would be debiltatingly heavy and resemble a crew served weapon instead of a hunting rifle. So, a large caliber bullet is needed to create a large wound channel and penetration is everything when it comes to reaching the vitals -- and hydrostatic shock plays no role."Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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1- I will agree with the layman term for hydraulic pressure as being "hydrostatic shock". Although "hydrostatic shock" is not a technicaly correct term it certainly does exist, but has little to do with the wounding in tissue caused by handgun projectiles, since the minimum velocity required to cause enough stretch to tear the tissue is 2000 and above FPS. The scientifically correct term is "hydraulic pressure" though. 2- A shock wave in the atmosphere is one thing but, to apply it to a soft solid (tissue) and to believe that it is the same is incorrect.. 3- Hydraulic pressure or as you say "hydrostatic shock" and energy are not one and the same. Go to the University and ask a Physics Proffessor what happens to kinetic energy in real collisions and he will tell you that it is transfered into thermal energy. This is a scientific fact and is not debatable.. Unless you can prove the laws of Physics to be false... 4- the examples are exactly what bullets do. Unless you can prove that it is some form of Voodo that is at work here, if not I am going to stay aligned with Sir Issac Newton and his Laws Of Motion 5- MY mind is very open and I am learning daily something, the only problem that you have with what I am learning is that I have chosen to learn from established science and not the BS put out by bullet salesmen.... _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Bullshit. You can keep preaching that shit all you want, but it is totally not true. | |||
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OK believe what you want, you probably still believe in Santa Claus and the Easter bunny as well. What you keep avoiding is, WHAT CASUES THE LARGE HOLE IN TISSUE? If you shoot a .50 cal bullet, how come you get a 3 to 4 inch wound cavity. When you shoot an animal in the heart, what blows it up, if hydrostatic shock, was not there, it would not happen. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Why are you getting hot under the collar? Without turning this into a pissing contest -- again, just tell me why my .338 win mag with more than double the muzzle energy of my .454 Casull doesn't kill any better or faster that the .454? And I'm not talking about 300 yard shots where any long barreled weapon with have an edge from an accuracy standpoint. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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1- I answered this question in my last post.. Momentum transfer and Hydraulic Pressure 2- again I am in agreement with the effects of Hydraulic pressure, which is what you are calling "hydrostatic shock" Agian FPE transfers into thermal energy, therefore FPE is irelevant If one is totaly in denail of Newtons basic Laws of motion (called laws because they are scientific fact) as well as other establish principles of Physics then it will be impossiable to debate this subject intelligently _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I understand Newton's laws of theory very well. So again you and I do not agree on energy transfer. So I guess we are back to were we started 4 months ago. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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If you understund Newtons Laws of motion, then would realize that Newtons Law of motion deals with Momentum and NOT ENERGY TRANSFER. THIS IS A UNDENIABLE FACT Which brings us to the next UNDENIABLE FACT "The first law of Thermodynamics requires conservation of total energy in any collision, but this information is not useful in analysis of the collision because there is no direct way to determine what fraction of the kinetic energy is transformed into other forms of energy (usually most of this is heat or thermal energy)" Prove that these facts of science are incorrect and the PULTZER PRIZE IN SCIENCE WILL BE YOURS and I will believe your banter at that point.. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Problem [1], Force, Mass, and Acceleration An object has a mass of 10.61 kg and an acceleration of 17.48 m/s/s. What is the force on the object? 185.46 N Notice that it is Net Force, NOT THE AMOUNT OF KINETIC ENERY needed, Kinetic energy is transfered into mostly Thermal Energy, which is the first law of Thermodynamics "The first law of Thermodynamics requires conservation of total energy in any collision, but this information is not useful in analysis of the collision because there is no direct way to determine what fraction of the kinetic energy is transformed into other forms of energy (usually most of this is heat or thermal energy)" _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I think you need to read these several times.... Let us begin our explanation of how Newton changed our understanding of the Universe by enumerating his Three Laws of Motion. Newton's First Law of Motion: I. Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it. This we recognize as essentially Galileo's concept of inertia, and this is often termed simply the "Law of Inertia". Newton's Second Law of Motion: II. The relationship between an object's mass m, its acceleration a, and the applied force F is F = ma. Acceleration and force are vectors (as indicated by their symbols being displayed in slant bold font); in this law the direction of the force vector is the same as the direction of the acceleration vector. This is the most powerful of Newton's three Laws, because it allows quantitative calculations of dynamics: how do velocities change when forces are applied. Notice the fundamental difference between Newton's 2nd Law and the dynamics of Aristotle: according to Newton, a force causes only a change in velocity (an acceleration); it does not maintain the velocity as Aristotle held. This is sometimes summarized by saying that under Newton, F = ma, but under Aristotle F = mv, where v is the velocity. Thus, according to Aristotle there is only a velocity if there is a force, but according to Newton an object with a certain velocity maintains that velocity unless a force acts on it to cause an acceleration (that is, a change in the velocity). As we have noted earlier in conjunction with the discussion of Galileo, Aristotle's view seems to be more in accord with common sense, but that is because of a failure to appreciate the role played by frictional forces. Once account is taken of all forces acting in a given situation it is the dynamics of Galileo and Newton, not of Aristotle, that are found to be in accord with the observations. Newton's Third Law of Motion: III. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This law is exemplified by what happens if we step off a boat onto the bank of a lake: as we move in the direction of the shore, the boat tends to move in the opposite direction (leaving us facedown in the water, if we aren't careful!). If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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\ I never said it kills any better, those are your words not mine. Killing and wound channels are two different subjects here. Hell I can kill anything with a 22 LR if I place the shot in the right place. I am talking about wound channel made by energy, it sure is not a bullet diameter that makes all the damage around the bullet hole and into an animal. If that were the case, hard pointed bullets would be, all we need for hunting. Hell we don't need bullets that have flat heads, you just need to put a nice hole in the animal and it is dead. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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I am not trying to achieve that, but you keep reading and posting everyone's else's findings and maybe one day you may get the prize. lol  If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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My animal autopsies have also shown that the big, slow-moving hardcast does as much internal damage as my .338 and in some cases more -- again, despite the big difference in muzzle energy. But those are my findings....... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Let us keep this in terms all may benefit by and not seem condescending!  jwp475, thank you for giving a terminal performance report I love to see the resultant effects on target and projectile, it just does not get old! What was the range, backstop type and approximate conditions? Perhaps next time you would be so kind as to test the different calibers separately. I have found that it can confuse one, having results from more than one variable in a single frame. A sound solution seems to be that the different projectile types of a single caliber are employed one at a time and of course, fully document the effects (channel, penetration, projectile performance). With several different styles of projectiles employed by several different cartridges an informed measuring of the pros and cons of each style and type is then possible. In my next to worthless opinion! I am going to go back to the beginning on this one. First we should all agree that the projectile is just a vehicle for the real payload, Force and that all of that force must be dissipated before that vehicle will rest. I am going to take some things for granted so gentlemen if I misinterpret your position the chances of you correcting me seem high. 1.
That is very exclusive. Which leads me to ask does the heat pop out of the bullet and say bang?
Where did you get yours to be able to PROPERLY interpret him?
Well forget it all then because the only difference with tank armor is that the target’s Kinematic Viscosity is primarily cohesive. (I can not boil that one down for the rest of you but it means that it resists braking apart.) 2
You are so close to the truth! The only modification I would make is: How much energy gets transferred when. jwp475- To commute the potential stored in the projectile into heat an intermediate MUST be recognized FRICTION. Without friction factoring into our interaction of great debate, it would be relatively lower in heat and vastly so. Furthermore the viscosity and distribution of materials relative to projectile trajectory within the target, profile, hardness, speed, mass and rotation of the projectile will determine the general effect of the interaction. So force (Momentum) is required to overcome the resistance (Inertia) of the target material to begin moving and is and exponential function. Which illustrates why the 45/70 “kills better†than a 243 (with the same muzzle energy), due to the higher velocity of the 243 resistance in the same target material is exponentially higher. Sic Semper Tyrannis | |||
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Dont forget that the cartridge is useless unless it has MAGNUM in the title. -------------------- THANOS WAS RIGHT! | |||
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