Hi, if anybody out there has a Freedom Arms revolver, could you please measure the throat and barrel dimensions and post them here along with the aproximate year of manufacture??

There has been a few instances of people reporting barrel dimensions larger than normal, so I'm wondering if this is just a couple of isolated instances or is it a trend?

I don't want to start an anti-Freedom rant here. I'd just like to gather some info and it may help to settle some of the Freedom Arms issues that are floating around.

Here is one report on the Clements forum with a 454 and 45colt haveing .453" groove dimensions with .452" throats.
http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?disc=107438;artic...ents%20Custom%20Guns

Then there was the 357 thread at Cast Boolits with a .359" barrel.

Thank you for your time and help.
Glenn.

Funny that no on has posted. My friend is bringing two of his over so I can measure them. Let you know when I do, he is working and has little time.

My M83 454 barrel and all five throats are 0.452. I slugged them all several times when I was trying to find a leading problem, which turned out to be lube related.

John

Lar, the bore was .3599, almost .360. Kind of large, ya think? .358 throats. Out of round with tight spots too.

Lar, another friend just dropped off his older Freedom .454 for me to measure.
If I expand a slug in the bore it measures .4532" to .4533". If I push one all the way through it is .453" which shows only a slight constriction at the barrel threads.
Throats measure .4524". The cylinder length is 1.785".
This gun shoots decent but has never been a tack driver and is one of those I outshoot with my revolvers. It has a Leopold 2X on it.

On the Cast boolit site one shooter reported.
"glad I got an older one.It measures .4515 on throat and barrel."

Looks like the .4524 throat to .453" barrel is pretty close to even, but would probably do better if it was the other way around.

Is there a site where Sillhouette shooters hang out? We might get some more info on newer guns.

I've measured several mod 83 throats and bores over the years and found them to be fairly close in size.

Conventional wisdom for a revlover shooter would have the throats 1 to 2 thousanths over the size of the bore but you must keep in mind that the FA was desinged to shoot jacketed light bullets at high velocity. They achive this with their 1 in 24 twist. They made up for the loss of accuracy with tight tolerances. They have the tightest cylinder latch on the market and the bore through from the front on chambers and throats insures good alingment.

Plain and simple it is a deferant technolagy than other revolvers. forget about shooting heavy hard cast bullets that swadge themselves anew in the bore they just dont work that way.

With this in mind the inconsistancies mentioned here have less impact on accuracy so long as you are using a good jacketed bullit. If you try shooting a heavy hard cast in one of these revolvers with a loose bore and tight throat dont expect any kind of accuracy at all.

I have to agree most of them are useless for cast boolits. This makes them a poor buy for most of us that cast our own or hunt with cast.
However I don't agree with the new technology idea because too many of them have perfect throats and bores and too many with oversize bores. Who decided that putting a size die behind a barrel is new technology to reduce pressure?
My belief is that whoever makes their barrels doesn't toe the line and Freedom has no way to check them for accuracy and just installs all of them.
If you go to Freedoms site, you will see that each caliber has a specified groove size. .357 for the .357, .410 for the .41, .452 for the Colt and Casull, .430 for the .44, .475 for the Linebaugh and .500 for the Wyo express.
These dimensions are what the gun is ordered for and to get an oversize bore is nothing more then a betrayal against those that save for years to buy a reputation for accuracy.
No excuse can be made with the words "new technology" because there is no such thing! It is nothing more then poor quality control and accepting out of spec barrels that should all have been returned.
It is a proven fact that either undersized throats or oversized bores do not shoot good and if anyone thinks jacketed bullets reach full potential under these circumstances they are fooling themselves.
All would be better served to get on Freedom's back and force them to make the product as advertized. Everyone that has out of spec bore sizes should return the gun at Freedoms expense!

Freedom's twist rates are slower in most of their guns so light bullets can be shot at high velocity or a long, heavy bullet will not fit the gun. New technology???? How many of you would buy a .30 caliber rifle with a 1 in 14 twist? Or a muzzle loader with a 1 in 60 twist for shooting long boolits?
Someone explain how a slower twist makes up for the loss in accuracy from an oversize bore!
Sounds like David Copperfield at work here.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Freedom's twist rates are slower in most of their guns so light bullets can be shot at high velocity or a long, heavy bullet will not fit the gun.

Then please explain how I can push a 370gr WLNFP
1400 fps into 3/4" groups @ 50 yds from my FA M83 .454 Casull. Seems to me the twist rate is just fine. Do you have anything good to add here or just more of your typical anti-Freedom Arms BS?

What I would lie to know is where do these anti Freedom Arms idiots come from.
There is always some jerk that tries their best to run down probably the premier revolver in the business other than some custom job that may be a tiny bit better.

I was just trying to gather some information to see if there has been a change.
This reminds me of when their was problems with the S&W M29 and shooting heavy bullets. The cylinder would get unlocked during recoil. Many shooters complained to S&W and they ignored them saying that there was no problem with the guns and the shooters were just imagineing things.
It wasn't until someone with high speed movie equipment recorded it to prove it that S&W finally listened. Then they looked into it themselves and made a change in the gun to correct it.
When the 500 S&W was still in the development stages, I spent a little time on the S&W Forum. The Engineer that was doing the X-frame project had no idea of what I was talking about when I mentioned it. You would think that an Engineer in charge of something large like that should know the comanies history so they would not make the same mistake again. There was lots of talk about velocities and heavy recoil, but when I asked how accurate the gun was the engineer had nothing to say on the subject and asked what I was talking about. I clarified that will all of the shooting going on, what kind of groups were they getting. To which there was no reply. Maybe they hadn't thought about makeing an accurate gun. Perhaps they just thought it would just be a gimmick to make noise and throw big chunks of lead.
which brings up another point. It seems that most of the gun writers talk up the recoil of heavy handguns and probably scare many shooters out of a purchase. Why would you want to buy something when the recoil is like getting hit with a 2x4 and it may break your thumbs off??
When in reality, if a person works at it, they can handle heavy recoil and shoot accurately.

So back to the original subject, this thread was not meant to be an anti-freedom rant. If there is a problem at the Freedom plant, maybe they aren't aware of it because they are too worried about getting the exterior pollished just right??

Let me tell you the problem not necesarially with you but some of the loons you will see on these forums.
First off they are Benchresr Barneys that hsve develpled an excellent bench technique that lets them shoot well. they like to do like a lot of rifle shooters that can't get up off the flat of their behinds and shoot from field positions etc because most aren't good shooter any way else.
They tinker fiddle and fool around with a gun trying to get the absolute max accuracy out of them on the bench when 99 percent of them couldn't tell the difference between a load that groups 3 inches at fifty or one that groups one and a half inches in the field shooting field positions.
They find one little problem in a gun that may make it a half inch poorer shooter than another etc. and then they make a mountain out of a mole hill over it get everyone with a lack of knowledge on the subject to believe them and then it is off and running.
It's posted on every forum everyone runs amuck and then the bashing starts.
If you can tell the difference between a one and a half inch gun and a two and ahalf inch gun at fifty I want to see proof of it when it come to field shooting positions Offhand,sitting, kneeling resting with you arms over something with your arms resting against the side of something Irons or scope.
i just don't believe you or 99 percnt of us shooters are.
Really if you want a benchrest gun have a bolt action single shot pistol built up in say 222 or someother small caliber put a powerful scope on it and be glad.

Don't take this post as directed to you personally but to some of the pot stirrers that are out there.

500 S&W? How many do you think that there are good enough with one to tell S&W they are accurate or not. Most can't shoot a 44 Mag well so what do you think about the 500.
Very Very few 500 S&W shooter are capable of handling one.
tTey buy it strictly for the wow factor.

Pot stirring? How about factual experience with a multitude of examples from a gunmaker that uses ranch help to assemble the kit guns they portray as the worlds finest handguns?

I've nicknamed them as the Harley Davidson of handguns, overpriced-overrated and antiquated technology.

Harley = Freedom Arms, it's all just myth, marketing and bull feathers!

Yeah your the one that use to post on the old sixgunner forums that liked to bash FA revolvers and you are probably one of the worst offenders of of all times. You are just some disgruntled loud mouth that feel you have to be noticed like you tried to be before. Pushing souped up loads then telling everyone how lousy the gun are after putting mega loads through them. Right 50 AE?

The bottom line is, Freedom Arms makes a world-class revolver that, to me, is well worth the price. I love mine, I'll buy lots more, I'll continue to hunt big game and drill out ragged holes at the range with them, and I don't have to berate another manufacturer to continue the affair. People who do should probably spend more time at the range and less on the internet. My opinion is not based on speculation or bias, just real-world experience. At the end of the day I can say the .500 S&W is way more powerful and the .460 S&W is way faster and maybe somebody out there makes a better revolver without hanging my head, but tomorrow, I'll still buy a Freedom Arms.

I don't want to bash Freedom, I just want them to supply guns as their specs say, no more, no less. They make wonderful guns and some are as accurate as a rifle but they have also made some that won't do better then 6" to 9" at 50 yd's.
I don't own one but friends bring many here and I see all kinds of differences from one to another that just should not be there.

bfrshooter: What loads did you use? who was doing the shooting? Did you try other loads to see if they would shoot better? Was this someone just telling youy their gun wouldn't shoot
Nine inches at fifty yards is unbelieveable. A smoothbore should do better than that.
I've never seen anything shoot that bad unless it was keyholeing. there is always a possibility that a bad one got out. How many of these "bad ones" have you actually seen?
What kind of ruler were you using to measure the group? If this was with cast bullets what kind? what weight? what alloy? Did the person that cast them cast them well? did you eliminate all other possibilities before you declared it was the gun?
Was it easier to say it was the gun rather than to check for other possibilities?

I wasn't takeing it as personally directed at me, but going back and reading my post, it sure looks that way.
20ish years ago when I was ready to buy my first centerfire revolver, I was looking at the Freedom Arms and really wanted one. I even had the money saved, but I was scared away by all the hype on the horrible recoil and broken wrists. I ended up buying a 10.5" S&W M29 with the 4 position adjustable front sight. It was a great gun, but within a month of getting it I was ready for heavier loads and had already maxed out the 44mag. Being young and stupid, I don't know why I didn't think about loading the 454 down and working up. I moved on to heavy 45 Colts and larger about 10 years ago and the 44(new one as the first was stolen by a guy in Ankorage) was only collecting dust. A friend picked up a Puma in 44mag, so I pulled the 44 Bisley out and met him at the range. I was really suprised at the light and pleasant recoil(a 250 SWC at 1350). I'm not saying I'm a He Man and look at the hair on my knuckles, it's just that different people have different recoil tolerances.
I'm a firm beliver that a person should shoot what is comfortable for them and what they can control.
Here's my 4" 500 S&W

With factory 400gn JSP Magtech ammo rated at 1600fps, I would describe the recoil as slightly unpleasant with just a mild sting in the hand.
I would encourage anyone who wants one, to get it and learn to control it and shoot it accurately. With handloads, you can go mild to wild. A 440gn cast at 1000 fps is rather pleasant and I would imagine that it would work well on many game animals.

Now in BFR Shooters defence, I know that he handgun hunts and gets several deer a year with a variety of pistols.
A few years back I was mostly in the 3-4" group range at 50yds(revolvers), but not always consistent. BFRshooter sent me a pile of notes on accurate revolver loading and shooting techniques that he had compiled over many years of competetive shooting. It would make a nice small book. With his help, long distance emails and PMs, I am now a fairly consistent 1.5" shooter at 50yds. I've had many targets with 3shots in less than .5"(center to center), but didn't know what was going wrong with the other shots. He's now sent along more info of what to pay attention to, so I'm hopeful that I'll be able to get at or below 1" groups.
I shoot from a bench when working up loads, then like to shoot from various other positions for practice. I really like the Elmer Keith style of sitting backed up against a pole or tree with my forearms resting on my bent knees. It's very comfortable and easy to shoot accurately from.
Well, It's late and I think I forgot where I was going with all this. (D*mn CRS anyway)

No Lar, they bash me. I am not ever going to say anything more about Freedoms. I just expected more from them.
I understand that most guys shoot 25 yd's and are happy and there are those that get supreme accuracy for silhouette out of theirs. The extreme variance is what made me gripe.
One asks what load was tried, well I figure over 100 were tried, can't count the shots though. These were all various jacketed bullets and weights with different powders and primers. We shot one cast boolit and gave that up right away. The new barrel was not shot with cast at all.
Many here don't know that we regularly shoot to 500 meters with revolvers and hit our targets. For long range we shoot Creedmore and for testing we use bags and never start at less then 50 yd's. I have piles of 50 yd targets with 5 shots in less then 9/16" to 5/8" (Many times with 3 to 4 shots in one ragged hole.) and have shot so many at 1" I don't save the targets any more. We have also broken 1" at 100 yd's lately.
As for offhand, I have no problems holding 3" at 100 yd's on a good day and have hit pop cans off hand on occasion. I can do it with full house .475's and 45-70's. I am getting a little shaky with age though.
I have bashed TC for years and never once had the response I get when I mention Freedom!!!
I have bashed Ruger several times because if you send a gun for anything and you have a perfect trigger, they remove what took hours to do and replace the thing with a hard trigger again and will not return the parts removed. I bash their .45 Colts. However if there is something really wrong, they bend over backwards to fix the problem and mostly do it free even if the owner caused it. Never had a problem with S&W!
I always thought we were here to discuss problems with anything from molds to guns to loads. Not so if the word Freedom is used! I will no longer upset those few and won't use the "F" word any more.

BFRSHOOTER: Let me tell you why your credibility seems to be cock-eyed to me.
"As for offhand, I have no problems holding 3" at 100 yd's on a good day and have hit pop cans off hand on occasion. I can do it with full house .475's and 45-70's. I am getting a little shaky with age though."
Do you see anythig wrong with that statement? I do so lets pick it apart now.
If you have no problem holding 3 Inches offhand at 100 yards then you will hit a pop can almost all the time. NOT OCCASIONALLY almost all the time period. I have before me a can of diet Coke the can is 2.59" wide by 4.85 tall. On that size target you would never miss it elevation wise but may miss it rarely windage wise. That would be shooting in the degree of phenomial proportions and would be better than probably 99.9 percent of ALL shooters today or ever before could acheive. I'm not saying you couldn't have "sloppy pooled" a few shots into 3 inches at 100 yards offhand but to do it consistantly would border on shooting of another world.
Now on the pop can thing I am not even going to mention that if you can hold 3 inches with a 45 caliber handgun out side to outside of the 2 widest holes you would not miss a pop can period since the space between the 2 bullets would be 2.548 which is less that the width of the pop can. Oh no I did mention it too. Sorry.
So for all you other deadeye dicks that think there are people so dumb thay cant measure pop cans, clay pigons etc. and decipher simple math post how good you are.
I may be "of the television" but I am no Jethro Bodine either.

quote:

Originally posted by Juggernaut76:

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Freedom's twist rates are slower in most of their guns so light bullets can be shot at high velocity or a long, heavy bullet will not fit the gun.

Then please explain how I can push a 370gr WLNFP
1400 fps into 3/4" groups @ 50 yds from my FA M83 .454 Casull. Seems to me the twist rate is just fine. Do you have anything good to add here or just more of your typical anti-Freedom Arms BS?

I shoot heavy hard cast out of my
Freedom revolvers and have perfect results. I attending the Linebaugh seminar this past weekend in Jackson, Miss.With my Freedom Arms 475 and a 420 grain LFN hardcast at 1382 FPS the slug pentrated 49" and remained point on the entire distance. That would tend to indicate that the twist rate is adequate.plus the revolver is quite accurate with this load.........

Me_plat, come shoot! Seems as if you only want to pick people apart without knowing a thing about them or their capabilities or the way their guns can shoot.
You are welcome anytime to show your stuff.

"Come Shoot": yeah,bfrshooter,we will be watching once again for you to show up at the ihmsa internationals to back up your blather..Idabull

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
No Lar, they bash me. I am not ever going to say anything more about Freedoms. I just expected more from them.
I always thought we were here to discuss problems with anything from molds to guns to loads. Not so if the word Freedom is used! I will no longer upset those few and won't use the "F" word any more.

The problem is that you make blanket statements.When you state that Freedom guns will not shoot heavy hard cast bullets accurately, well that is not true,as manny of us shoot the heavy hard cast slugs very accurately from Freedom guns.If you stated that you found a particular Freedom that did not shoot heavy hard cast well,no one would argue.I can and do shoot out to 500 yards and farther and I can hit pop cans at 100 yards,but you make like you are one of if not the only one that does this. I have owned a 475 since 1988 and few have owned one as long. My point is that I have a fair amount of experience with this caliber and I like my Freedom 475 as well as my custons and I like the Freedom grip better than the BFR grip.Have I seen Freedom guns that needed correction? Yes,but a blanket statement that they are inferior is incorrect.
You did the same thing with the transfer bar warning.You did not listen at first when you were corrected and told that Model 83 Freedom revolvers do not, nor have they ever had a transfer bar.Anyone with much handgun experience should have relized that they were not looking at a transfer bar system,as they do not look the same or even close.
Your continualy baised posts against Freedom revolvers is where your credibility is taking a hit.......

BFRSHOOTER wrote: Me_plat, come shoot! Seems as if you only want to pick people apart without knowing a thing about them or their capabilities or the way their guns can shoot.
You are welcome anytime to show your stuff.

I never said anything about my stuff. You are the one that made the brag about YOUR stuff.
The trouble with a lot of you guys is that you think there isn't anyone on these forums that can actually think about and analyize things that people say or have said.
I just wanted you to know that their are some relatively smart people on here that can determine when someone is legit or if they are spreading hokum.
Just try to be more careful when you are trying to impress someone. Think out what you are going to say before you say it. Then you won't be whining when someone takes you to task for making a statement that any thinking shooter can see through.

What bothers me is you never read what I post but jump to conclusions. If you read every word you will see that I said "on a good day", never did I say I do it all the time!!!! What I said is I have done it many times but can't hold still enough other times. You are looking for a reason to bash me the same way I have bashed Freedom by reading only what you want to see.
That fact makes me respond the way I do because some of you don't read everything, just enough to give you ammo to jump on me.
I have shot several 3" groups with my BFR 45-70 at 500 yd's from Creedmore position. Can I do it all the time? NO! Does it mean anything? YES, it shows what a revolver is capable of even if the shooter can't do it all the time.
I kept 3 out of 5 and 4 out of 5 shots on a 6" swinger at 400 yd's with my .475 BFR from Creedmore by aiming above it at the top of the 500 meter berm with a red dot. Can I do it all the time, maybe yes, maybe no. Did I ever claim to be able to do that all the time??? I don't ever remember saying anything to that effect. I once cleaned 20 straight pop cans at 100 yd's with my .44 SBH from Creedmore and 5 off hand.(Open sights.) Did I ever say it is common for me to do that? I sure don't remember saying that!
All of my posts were to show how good a revolver can shoot, not that I can do it all the time. I do not flinch, recoil does not scare me, I can call every shot, hit or miss but never once did I claim I hit all the time.
Some of you need a reading lesson so none of what I say is ignored so you can jump on me. STOP READING BETWEEN THE LINES! It only adds to the ignorance of your reply's. To quickly run and measure a pop can is nothing but fodder for you. Until you can make a revolver sit up and talk, maybe you should work on it and your own shooting before bashing other people.

BFRSHOOTER: As for offhand, I have no problems holding 3" at 100 yd's on a good day and have hit pop cans off hand on occasion. I can do it with full house .475's and 45-70's.

If you have no trouble holding 3 inches at 100 offhand ona good day then you should have no problem hitting those pop cans every time on a good day instead of ocassionally. It really eats at you that there are some you can't trick.
Running down my replies still doesn't take away from you talking out of both sides of your mouth.
As far as my revolvers talking. Just the other day one of them called me daddy. That was a wonderful feeling.
Really I have like you done some very good offhand shooting at 100 yards. But I am not going to make misleading remarks about it.
You NEVER flinch? NOw you are telling me you have perfect control over your body. When nothing in the human body is perfect how can you ever say NEVER flinch? maybe once in a couple hundred? Maybe a time or two in a couple thousand rounds but to say you never flinch means you have PERFECT trigger control. I have never seen a perfect shooter yet. But wait you said you could call the good and bad shots too so you do mean you don't have perfect trigger control either or do you?
Do you really want to continue this banter?
If you are pefect please post a picture of yourself as I want to see what one perfect shooter looks like since I have never seen one in my 40 some years of shooting.

That is correct, I do not FLINCH! I wiggle because of age but I can control fear of recoil. I have no fear of it! The gun does not change recoil by punching it foreward in anticipation of non-existant pain. The brain controls muscles. If your brain has fear, it screws up your muscles. If anyone thinks the gun hurts less by punching it foreward, they will never shoot to their best.
Some of my friends can't stop the flinch even if I threaten them with a billy club. Some shoot many shots and then one will be flinched. I forgive that. If you can't train your brain and muscles to work together, how can you use a fork and read the paper at the same time? Do you stick the fork in your face?
What you are telling me is that you have no control, fear recoil and everyone you know is the same. Maybe you had better shoot only .22's.

BFRSHOOTER: I most certainly will flinch once in a great while. I will admit it because I am never going to say never about anytime expecially when it comes to the human mind and body. You on the other hand have reached perfection that as far as i know there hasn't been anyone else that has reached it period. In any couse of study or action even the most learned people in this world isn't perfect as is true in the shooting sports.
True you may never flinch in relativaly speaking but to ever say you never means that you have never flinched even at the beginning of your shooting career.
You have never gotten agressive on you trigger pull and flubbed a shot? You have perfect trigger control all the time? Your nervous system never gets jumpy at all?
See you are saying things now becaused you are miffed at me that are just plain rediculous and you know it. That mind now is causing you to try to rally back but because it is imperfect you are tightening the noose around you neck tighter and tighter and if you not careful your going to flinch and spring that trapdoor an hang yourself.
i had a long talk with Bob Munden a long while back and the subject cam up about flinching. This is what he said: Anyone that tells you they never flinch is lying to you. He said he flinches once in a great while and he shoots many thousands rounds a year. I guess he needs to get some trainging from you so he can become a better shot.
You may have a different word for flinching but a rose by any ther name smells just as sweet.
Now what else are you perfect in? Got that photo ready to post of the worlds perfect shooter?

Okay, enough already. You two want to keep this pissing match up, go to the PMs; it's not providing anything useful to this forum

There are two reason to miss, disregarding the wiggles. One is to pull the trigger as the sights cross the target when you can't hold still. That shot will go high. I do that a lot.
The other is to plain flinch from fear and that shot will go low, sometimes right in front of the shooter. I do not do that!
To mix the two reasons and call them one problem is wrong. I would say Bob has the first reason, not a flinch. He sure has no fear of shooting.
To have a day when the gun is just waving around because your body is screwed up and to yank the trigger as the sights go past the spot is NOT flinching. This is a normal condition for every shooter no matter how good they are or what they shoot, from rifle to whatever. If you do that, you are NOT flinching, just trying to make the shot break when the sights cross the target. It will miss every time!

I got this email from a guy about the Freedom Arms dimensions, and I'm pasteing it here. It would be interesting to get some direct information from Freedom Arms on the subject.

"hi lar,
i cant post on acc hunting but thought i would give u what info i have. been around and owned fa 454's for years. mine is 454 in the groove. now this is where i might over step my bounds. talked to bob baker several years ago and asked why this is. he said that they do it on prupose to relieve pressure. that is as it goes from 452 to a 453 or 454 barrel it allows a decrease in pressure. seems odd to me as i thought that peak pressure on revolvers was while the bullet is still in the case. some day we will know about that for sure as i will be involved in pressure testing some rounds at western powders. but anyway i thought you might like to know what bob said.
Jeff
"

This is posted here just for the information contained.
If Freedom Arms is makeing the barrels larger on purpose, it would be good information to have if you have cast bullets in mind. If they are makeing the barrels larger, I wonder when they made the change?
I think I'll try an email to Freedom Arms and will post the reply if I get one.

Again, I'm not trying to start or continue a Freedoms Arms bashing session, just trying to find the truth behind the problems.

the "one most likely" is that one or more of the Freedom arms bashers or enablers tried to do a Jr.Askins on Freedom Arms,and got turned down.. Idabull

For a comparison, I just measured my .44 SBH, BFR .475 and 45-70 revolvers.
The .475 has .4765" throats and the grooves are .475".
The 45-70 has throats of .4595" and grooves of .458".
I would say they are held to very tight specs.
The .44 has .4324" throats and grooves of .430".
There were no tight spots and the bores are round.
I also measured the trigger pulls on my BFR's and SBH. All broke at 2# with zero creep or drag. This is the only work done to the guns. I made longer transfer bars so I could safely shoot with triggers this light. I would not suggest going this light with short transfer bars.