Does anyone know the implications of cutting down an Encore 12ga rifled barrel to 12"-15"? Is this considered an NFA type weapon? Personally, I think a 12ga fully rifled Encore barrel in a pistol length would be a nice treestand deer thumper when paired up with some Brenneke Golds. Any ideas as to whether this is legal or not???

Definitely NFA.......I'm not sure whether it would be classified as an "any other weapon", a short barreled shotgun or a destructive device (over 50 cal).......a lot of that depends on whether the frame left the factory in handgun or long gun configuration......

If you really want the safe, legal answer...... submit a letter to the BATFe Technology Branch and wait for their determination......DON'T rely on anything a local office or agent says!!!

I think this is the current address:

Bureau of ATF
Firearms Technology Branch
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, WV 25401

That would certainly make quite the Howdah pistol! Perhaps pistolizing an Encore 12 bore muzzleloader barrel would result in fewer imperial entanglements? Perhaps not. Proceed with caution, and keep us posted.

Do a google search on shotgun barrel lengths .

Unfortunately that falls into the no-no catagory.

The legal way to build a howdah is to use a muzle-loading shotgun as a basis.

Hmmm, I wonder if a muxxle loading shotgun barrel on the encore frame would be legal?

From the ATF, details of the NFA as follows:

Shotgun. -- The term "shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell.

Any other weapon. -- The term "any other weapon" means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

Well, it sounds like a 12ga Encore pistol with a 12"-15" RIFLED barrel doesn't fit into either of these catagories. To me, this sounds legal, without NFA paperwork. Any futher thoughts?!?!

Have you ever wondered why TC doesn't produce a 12 guage rifled handgun barrel????

The definition of a "destructive device" is found in Title 26, United States Code, in section 5845(f). The definition reads as follows:

(2) Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and


At first glance, it doesn't appear that your proposed 12 guage pistol would fall under this definition because of the "shotgun exemption" portion.....however, notice that the definition you posted for a shotgun specifies a smooth bore.......when you rifle the barrel, it no longer meets the definition of a shotgun!

The real deal killer is the part that says: "except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes

I can almost guarantee you that you won't get a sporting purposes exemption for a 12 guage handgun with a rifled bore.........Like I said......you need to contact the BATFe Firearms Technology Branch and ask them your specific question......BEFORE you do it.......

Well, my letter to the ATF will be in the mail tonight I'll repost when I recieve any information. Hopefully it won't take 6 months, but I'm not getting my hopes up!!

If it's a handgun, you're limited to 50 caliber, over 50 in a handgun is considered a destructive device.

Since you are using a shotgun shell to hold the powder and bullet/projectile, it would be considered a shotgun.

Paul

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If it's a handgun, you're limited to 50 caliber, over 50 in a handgun is considered a destructive device.

The over 50 cal regulation also applies to rifles......but many over 50 cal rifles are granted a "sporting purposes" exemption. For example, the Boyes anti tank rifle is .585 cal and is considered an NFA regulated destructive device......a 577 Nitro Express rifle is also .585 cal and is not regulated under the NFA because of the sporting purpose exemption.

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Since you are using a shotgun shell to hold the powder and bullet/projectile, it would be considered a shotgun.

Just because you can fire a shotgun shell in a handgun does not legally make it a shotgun.......just look at the TC 45/410 barrels......everyone knows they are primarily designed to fire .410 shotshells, but, if the ability to fire a shotshell legally made them shotguns they would be regulated as NFA weapons......clearly that is NOT the case.

ManCannon

Last one I sent was dated 2/15.......the response was dated 10/30......hope you have a quicker response than I did!

Good luck.......hope it works out for you!!

TC is NOT a good source for legal advice....... the BATF letter I spoke of in one of my posts directly contradicts the advice routinely given by TC employees!

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Just because you can fire a shotgun shell in a handgun does not legally make it a shotgun...just look at the TC 45/410 barrels...everyone knows they are primarily designed to fire .410 shotshells, but, if the ability to fire a shotshell legally made them shotguns they would be regulated as NFA weapons...clearly that is NOT the case.

So if the 45/410 is legal because a 45 Colt with a long freebore coincidentally happens to accept a 410 shotshell then an Encore chambered for a .72 caliber brass-cased cartridge firing a single projectile "which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes" that coincidentally happens to chamber a 12 ga shotshell would be okay? I'd still wait for the BATFE letter, but I wouldn't get my hopes up. How about a Encore barrel in .577 Snider? That would be a 24 ga shotgun slug, sort of...

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So if the 45/410 is legal because a 45 Colt with a long freebore coincidentally happens to accept a 410 shotshell then an Encore chambered for a .72 caliber brass-cased cartridge firing a single projectile "which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes" that coincidentally happens to chamber a 12 ga shotshell would be okay? I'd still wait for the BATFE letter, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

You got it!

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The way I see it is its not a factory barrel you're cutting one down and that would bring it in to the illegal sawed of shotgun catagory.

By NFA definition, shotguns have smooth bores. Even if I cut it down, it still was never a "shotgun". Short barreled rifle? No, it's not shoulder fired. I read through the NFA many times over, and it "seems" to not fall into any category regulated by the NFA. But again, I'll be waiting on the BATF's response prior to any modifications.

ManCannon: In the meantime, you might want to check your states regulations on your proposed project as BATF isn't the last word on these matters. States can and do have more restrictive regulations than the Feds have. The 45/410 barrels are not leagle in California. If this project isn't leagle in your state, it wouldn't be here, what the BATF has to say is immaterial...Rusty.

I imagine quite a few of us have seen the video of the .600 Nitro Express handgun. Legal?

The 600 Nitro was built in Germany.

Lee Juras built some over 50 cal howdahs way back when the contender first came out. I don't believe he was prosecuted for making destructive devices, but he did end up destroying them as it was a no no.

I count it as a silly law, but it is what it is. Some things in life aren't worth messing with, my list includes poisonous reptiles, the IRS, married women, BATF, and other sundry guvment agencies.

There are legal ways to go about it, but not worth the hassle IMHO. Cutting down a muzzleloading double 12 ga for launching big round balls is I figure the most fun for the least hassle. Your milealage my vary

Great opportunity for a wildcat here, the .700 NE short. Trim the case back to 2.0- 2.5" and away you go.
I expect you would still have to get BATF approval of it as a sporting round rather than destructive device. T.C. could sell a boat load of them I would bet.
C.G.B.

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Originally posted by Paul H:
The 600 Nitro was built in Germany.

Lee Juras built some over 50 cal howdahs way back when the contender first came out. I don't believe he was prosecuted for making destructive devices, but he did end up destroying them as it was a no no.

I count it as a silly law, but it is what it is. Some things in life aren't worth messing with, my list includes poisonous reptiles, the IRS, married women, BATF, and other sundry guvment agencies.

There are legal ways to go about it, but not worth the hassle IMHO. Cutting down a muzzleloading double 12 ga for launching big round balls is I figure the most fun for the least hassle. Your milealage my vary

Paul, are you sure we're talking about the same 600 Nitro Express handgun? The one I have seen the video of was an Encore handgun that was supposedly built by Van Horn here in the US.

Federal Law requires a class III license for a pistol over .50 cal wether smooth or rifled bore. Your state laws may vary. You can find info on obtaining the license over at AR15.com. Those boys know those rules inside and out. The license cost $200 and requires a back ground check (not the basic one when you buy a gun). If you first obtain the license then you can build the gun.

The muzzleloader barrel is an iffy way around the law. An Encore is a firearm according to BATF&E. You have to buy them (new) through an FFL. I think if you got caught with a short ML Encore shotgun you'd have a very big legal bill proving you were legal.

Not that it matters here, but I cut down a NEF rifled barrel in 20ga to 18 1/4" and it is a wonderful tree stand gun out to 50 yds. At 50 yds it will shoot 2.5" groups with Lightfields and Win Supreme. You don't need a 12 ga for unarmored deer.

BTW, I'm really happy with my .45 cal TC muzzle loader with a 12" butt stock and barrel cut to 18" too. 2 pellets of 777 pushed a 155 gr XTP thru both sides of deer and leave a big hole going out. Again about 3" groups at 50 yds. It's really handy to reload in the stand too!!

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Originally posted by Ohiosam:
The muzzleloader barrel is an iffy way around the law. An Encore is a firearm according to BATF&E. You have to buy them (new) through an FFL. I think if you got caught with a short ML Encore shotgun you'd have a very big legal bill proving you were legal.

As long as the gun is Black Powder, you don't have any issues. But you turn it into a cartridge gun and all bets are off.

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Originally posted by ddunn:

quote:

Originally posted by Ohiosam:
The muzzleloader barrel is an iffy way around the law. An Encore is a firearm according to BATF&E. You have to buy them (new) through an FFL. I think if you got caught with a short ML Encore shotgun you'd have a very big legal bill proving you were legal.

As long as the gun is Black Powder, you don't have any issues. But you turn it into a cartridge gun and all bets are off.

Get convicted of a felony and one won't be entertaining any weapons maybe forever!

we had a discussion on this topic in the bellm forum. Pistols can not be over 50cal. Batf says shotgun must have a minimum 18" barrel and 26" total length. a pistol gripped encore needs a 21.5" barrel to be legal. HOWEVER some states like my Michigan, require a longer total length.
A 20" turkey barrel with a PORTED choke can be long enough for batf and handles well.
Shooting one with rubber grips and padded gloves, field loads were tolerable but 3" 2oz turkey loads came out of my hand. I used a sling wraped around left hand which limited the lift but create a twist that you can't control. Felt recoil wasn't bad, maybe because I dropped it.
If it wasn't for michigan rules I might try a 20 ga.

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Originally posted by scr83jp:

quote:

Originally posted by ddunn:

quote:

Originally posted by Ohiosam:
The muzzleloader barrel is an iffy way around the law. An Encore is a firearm according to BATF&E. You have to buy them (new) through an FFL. I think if you got caught with a short ML Encore shotgun you'd have a very big legal bill proving you were legal.

As long as the gun is Black Powder, you don't have any issues. But you turn it into a cartridge gun and all bets are off.

Get convicted of a felony and one won't be entertaining any weapons maybe forever!

Maybe I should have been clearer. A Blackpowder gun is not a gun in the eyes of the atf. This is why you can buy a BP gun over the internet and it can be delivered to your home (not a FFL).