Since we are having a couple of good discussions, with out too much name calling, on this forum, I have another topic for discussion.

The 45 ACP vs the 357 Magnum, with a carry length barrel of around 4" to 5".
Consider the 1911 as an accurate one, with adjustable sights, or good fixed sights sighted in to the load you will use.

This is for daily carry in Urban locations as well as carrying in the Woods.

Your thoughts on revolver vs semiauto, as well as different bullet weights in each calibre are welcome.

I will go first. I have been no doubt influenced by the fact my first Centerefire handgun was an accurized 1911 in 45 ACP with Bomar Sights. Thus the 1911 has always been my most favorite handgun.
My second centerefire handgun was a 44 Magnum.

When I did get a 357 Mag it just never excited me much. All of my friends hand them, but if I was going to carry a revolver i always chose the 44. I did not always use full power loads, but 357 Mag shooters do not need to either.

A lot of the guys I worked with carried 357 mags, but several of the partners I has switched to the 44 Mag as a duty gun after shooting mine.

Well back to the 45 ACP vs the 357 Mag.

Advantages for the 357 Mag are higher velocity, thus flatter trajectory, and a better chance of expanding the bullet at a distance.

With some of the new heavier cast bullet loads it might even give deeper penetration.

The 45 ACP is "already expanded" and can with the proper bullets expand more and still give adequate penetration.
Also with heavy cast bullets it does give adequate penetration, body and on head shots up close.

The revolver does have some extra points on reliability, the semiauto on faster reloading.

I do find the 1911 easier to shoot.

Also the Speer Shotshells for the 1911 work better than the ones in 38/375, but the 38/357's still work pretty good, the wife has shot a bunch of stuff with them.

I much prefer the 1911, in 45 ACP, but that is just me.

I dunno, my lifetime experience with a blackhawk, a M27 and a 586 left me loving my 1911's even more for concealed carry. The 357 is a much zippier cartridge, and it was actually cheaper to reload, but the 45acp is good enough.

And I don't buy the idea that revolvers are more reliable than autos - not for a second.

dla

I consider revolvers more reliable in some circumstances, such as if you find your self grappling with the bad guy. Happens a lot in the real world, sadly most of the good guys do not have any kind of handgun at all..

And if you are knocked down or are otherwise in contact with some sort of 4 legged animal, a semiauto can get "bound up" of the slide hits something, or hair, mud, vegetation gets cought up in the mechanism...

I know of one instance where a gun wrighter[it was videoed] was killing cows in a slaughter house testing penetration of various handguns. When he shot one with a 1911 brain matter exited the entry hole and got on the barrel keeping the slide from going back into battery...

However I can say that a 1911 will shoot, extract, eject and shoot again, totally under water...
With no damage to the gun.

So, as much as I like the 1911, I prefer a S&W 44 Mag, revolver for a field gun, especially in bear country.

450, you make a great point. In "hand to hand", it is possible to keep a 1911 from going full battery by shoving on the slide. Not sure how easy it would be, but it IS possible to do, I would think.

If I could get the same finish on my Colt Gov't Model the Glocks have, I believe it would possibly be the only handgun I would carry for defensive use. These days, when working in the urban jungle, I carry at least two revolvers and they both start with a ".4".

While I would not carry it in "urban locations", my S&W 686 loves the 180 gr. JHP at max velocities. With a red dot sight on it, I would be prepared to take a long shot at, say, a pig, than with a 45ACP., say, 75 yards.
Peter.

I sold a Ruger Super Redhawk 7.5" 44mag. to get my Springfield XDM 45. I carried the 44mag. along with my rifle hunting. The 44mag. got too heavy for me on the hip. The XDM 45 is lighter and has 14rds. versas 6rds. If I was strictly handgun hunting would of stuck with the 44mag. I have a Ruger SP101 I carried too but only has 5rds. I am happy with the 45acp.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
If I could get the same finish on my Colt Gov't Model the Glocks have, I believe it would possibly be the only handgun I would carry for defensive use. These days, when working in the urban jungle, I carry at least two revolvers and they both start with a ".4".

MS, no doubt Great,[twisted ], minds think alike. Many times I have thought, I wish my 1911's were "finished" the same way as a Glock... For those of you that do not know you can store a Glock in a bucket of Salt Water...
They will not rust...

I can also say that anyone that carries 2 revolvers that start with a "4" is well armed.

I can say, that I have done so, many, many times. Even when I knew I was in harms way, on the job. With 2 44 Mags I was never scared.

There is nothing wrong with depending on revolvers for personal protection.

Revolvers or semiautos, you need to practice...

I vote one of each!

As mentioned in other threads, I carry a 10mm Dan Wesson 1911 or Glock 20 daily. Familiarity with the platforms dictate my carrying it. If I spent more time training with a revolver, I'd probably carry one more often for self defense in an urban environment. I don't spend too much time in the woods, but that time in the woods is usually spent in CT/NH/VT. Biggest threat here would be a black bear or a rogue cat (as evidenced by the rather large mountain lion struck and killed on RT 15 in CT last year). A well stoked 10mm (read: Double Tap cast 220grs) is comforting enough to me.

Almost two years back I picked up an S&W model 60 Pro Series in .357 mag with a 3" barrel and a generously sized set of grips on it. Quite a nice little carry revolver. Fits nicely in a sourdough pancake holster from Simply Rugged. Light enough to carry all day. With a good hard cast, full house .357 load the gun is too slow to fully recover from recoil for a fast followup shot for me. If I were to carry it for personal defense in an urban environment, I'd carry hot, 158gr .38 special +P's. If I were to carry it in the woods for four legged protection, I'd have to spend a considerable amount of time with some hotter loads to get used to them and proficient enough for a faster follow up shot in that light platform. I'm not sure how 180gr full house .357's would do, as far as jumping crimps in recoil, in that light a gun. I know S&W has formal statements about heavy for caliber ammo in their lighter magnum revolvers as far as jumping crimps.

I've had a few .357 revolvers, liked them, but not nearly as much as I like my 1911 -- for field or for carry.

...but recently I've been carrying a little hammerless alloy framed +P rated j-frame *everywhere* and it's super handy and surprisingly accurate. Great with shotshells too with it's miniature barrel.
The new Hornady critical defense ammunition seems to work well, I'm happy with the little wheelgun.
Still, where anything heavy is expected, it's a companion to the 1911



Cheers
Tinker

Brandon

IF I was a 357 Mag kind of guy, the various Mod 60's would be worth a look for sure...

a.tinker

Since 1976 I have carried, a lot of the time, a S&W 38 Special Bodyguard...

Always as a No2 or a No3...

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
a.tinker

Since 1976 I have carried, a lot of the time, a S&W 38 Special Bodyguard...

Always as a No2 or a No3...

I like the way you think on this.

Many ways to laod a 45 ACP 1911 which is my carry pistol of choice. A 255 grain hard cast a 950 FPS will leave a mark. Set the up the piece correctly and a 255 at 1090 FPS is easily doable

My first serious handgun was a Blackhawk 357, I loved it by as the years went by I have moved up in bore size and see no need to go back down.

If I need more than a 45 ACP I will choose a 41, 44, 45 Colt, 454 Casul, or a 475, 500 Linebaugh or JRH, but the most used handgun I own is the 1911 in 45 ACP

well i guess i have the best of both i use my coonan model B in .357 mag its identical to a model 1911 i also have 4 s&w 357 in model 686 with the 2.5 in on best

quote:

Originally posted by bigbill0690:
well i guess i have the best of both i use my coonan model B in .357 mag its identical to a model 1911 i also have 4 s&w 357 in model 686 with the 2.5 in on best

Truth be known, you'd most likely be hard pressed to find anyone on this forum who does not have a similar situation.

I would not want to get hit by either.

Uncle Sam taught me to appreciate the 1911 and I believe that the .45 was designed for one reason. I will have to go with the 45.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
a.tinker

Since 1976 I have carried, a lot of the time, a S&W 38 Special Bodyguard...

Always as a No2 or a No3...

I like the way you think on this.

MS...you got no clue what NE considers a "walkin' load".

Start with S&W 25-2 on his right hip with one moon clip in the gun and another 4 in a Dade Speed-loader case. The move to his left front pocket...a Colt Commander .45 with two more magazines in a piggyback case on the rear left hip...then go to his left calf...there you will find a Eagle Industries custom upside-down leg holster I had made for him with a Colt Officers Model (STEEL FRAME) in it...now add up the ammo... 5-6 round moon clips, 2-7 round mags plus 8 in one gun and 7 in the other....that's 59 rounds of ammo....

Then the PD took his .45s away from him and gave him Glocks instead.... A 17 in the holster and a 19 in the pocket where the Commander used to be...and 2 extra magazines...that is 68 rounds of ammo....

...when the fight started he was NOT going to run out of ammo or guns....



As to the original question.. .357 vs. a .45... I started with a 4" Model 19 that I put 20K through before selling it. My first semi-auto was a 1911 .45 Combat Commander...that I sold also. Since the turn of the century I have probably fired one-two boxes of .357 and one box of .45.... Given a choice as an all-around gun for both field and concealed carry it would be the .45 1911 as I carry one all day every day...it is just a .38 Super not a .45.

I own 2 .45s and 4 .357s but they just rarely get shot preferring the .41 Magnum in revolvers and .38 Super in semi-autos....

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
a.tinker

Since 1976 I have carried, a lot of the time, a S&W 38 Special Bodyguard...

Always as a No2 or a No3...

I like the way you think on this.

MS...you got no clue what NE considers a "walkin' load".

Start with S&W 25-2 on his right hip with one moon clip in the gun and another 4 in a Dade Speed-loader case. The move to his left front pocket...a Colt Commander .45 with two more magazines in a piggyback case on the rear left hip...then go to his left calf...there you will find a Eagle Industries custom upside-down leg holster I had made for him with a Colt Officers Model (STEEL FRAME) in it...now add up the ammo... 5-6 round moon clips, 2-7 round mags plus 8 in one gun and 7 in the other....that's 59 rounds of ammo....

Then the PD took his .45s away from him and gave him Glocks instead.... A 17 in the holster and a 19 in the pocket where the Commander used to be...and 2 extra magazines...that is 68 rounds of ammo....

...when the fight started he was NOT going to run out of ammo or guns....



As to the original question.. .357 vs. a .45... I started with a 4" Model 19 that I put 20K through before selling it. My first semi-auto was a 1911 .45 Combat Commander...that I sold also. Since the turn of the century I have probably fired one-two boxes of .357 and one box of .45.... Given a choice as an all-around gun for both field and concealed carry it would be the .45 1911 as I carry one all day every day...it is just a .38 Super not a .45.

I own 2 .45s and 4 .357s but they just rarely get shot preferring the .41 Magnum in revolvers and .38 Super in semi-autos....

Bob

No Bob, I have a real good clue. Fastest means of reloading is pulling another firearm. I'm not going to go out for lack of being able to shoot back.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
dla

I consider revolvers more reliable in some circumstances, such as if you find your self grappling with the bad guy. Happens a lot in the real world, sadly most of the good guys do not have any kind of handgun at all..

And if you are knocked down or are otherwise in contact with some sort of 4 legged animal, a semiauto can get "bound up" of the slide hits something, or hair, mud, vegetation gets cought up in the mechanism...

I know of one instance where a gun wrighter[it was videoed] was killing cows in a slaughter house testing penetration of various handguns. When he shot one with a 1911 brain matter exited the entry hole and got on the barrel keeping the slide from going back into battery...

However I can say that a 1911 will shoot, extract, eject and shoot again, totally under water...
With no damage to the gun.

So, as much as I like the 1911, I prefer a S&W 44 Mag, revolver for a field gun, especially in bear country.

I understand your point - and it's valid. But remember that revolvers quit "revolving" when you grab the cylinder.

But what is more important is that I'm not in the Cop business. I don't have to "arrest" anyone. What little experience I have with the scum of the earth, (worked in a jail), is that very few of them are scared by somebody brandishing a gun. If I pull my gun, either somebody is going to die or it is going back in the safe.

The 357 mag is one heck of it has a reputation of working very well. I carried one for many years on the job never felt under gunned. I good med framed 357 is a joy to shoot and carry. If one can get the job done in 5 or six rounds a nice revolver is hard to beat. I like the extra vel out of the 357.

But then I was carring my 45 around too with good ammo they both well do.

For woods running I perfer the 357 with good bullets and the extra vel it works vey well.

quote:

Originally posted by dla:

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
dla

I consider revolvers more reliable in some circumstances, such as if you find your self grappling with the bad guy. Happens a lot in the real world, sadly most of the good guys do not have any kind of handgun at all..

And if you are knocked down or are otherwise in contact with some sort of 4 legged animal, a semiauto can get "bound up" of the slide hits something, or hair, mud, vegetation gets cought up in the mechanism...

I know of one instance where a gun wrighter[it was videoed] was killing cows in a slaughter house testing penetration of various handguns. When he shot one with a 1911 brain matter exited the entry hole and got on the barrel keeping the slide from going back into battery...

However I can say that a 1911 will shoot, extract, eject and shoot again, totally under water...
With no damage to the gun.

So, as much as I like the 1911, I prefer a S&W 44 Mag, revolver for a field gun, especially in bear country.

I understand your point - and it's valid. But remember that revolvers quit "revolving" when you grab the cylinder.

But what is more important is that I'm not in the Cop business. I don't have to "arrest" anyone. What little experience I have with the scum of the earth, (worked in a jail), is that very few of them are scared by somebody brandishing a gun. If I pull my gun, either somebody is going to die or it is going back in the safe.

You would have to be Super Duper man to grab a revolvers cylinder in motion and what if it was already cocked into single action mode????You can stop a 1911 from firing by pushing on the barrel and slide.You gonna try????

The real down and dirty deal is.

Yes you can grab a revlover cylinder or the hammer, and keep some one from pulling the trigger, but, when and if the shooter can wrestle it free it will start right up and shoot.

However a semiauto [and I am a believer in the semiauto], if a semiauto is fired, and does not completely cycle, for what ever reason, once it is wrestled free, it will take two hands to get it back up and running. IF hair or plant stuff has jammed it, then it might take somewhat more time to clear it out.

This is one of the reasons that when I was on the job, my ultimate close grapple gun, was a High Standard Derringer in 22 Mag.

It has no external moving parts except the trigger. And when carried in a wallet type holster there is almost no chance of anything keeping it from firing.

I know of one State Police Agency that issued it for that reason, back in the day.

I am somewhat surprised that there are not than many 357 Mag users that have stepped forward.

I can remember, back in the day when the 357 Mag had quite the following...

Also, I am suprised at the number of people, that consider the 1911 in 45 ACP [and my buddy RJM with his 38 Supers, and He was using the 38 Super LONG before the darlings of IPSC "discovered" it], to be a suitable field/woods gun...

I thought I was one of the few...

Looks like I am not alone is using a 1911 in 45 ACP as a woods gun...

...but NE...you only gave us a choice of TWO.....

Bob

quote:

and my buddy RJM with his 38 Supers, and He was using the 38 Super LONG before the darlings of IPSC "discovered" it], to be a suitable field/woods gun...

NE, I assume that your buddy was not using a 38 Super with a supported chamber, as it was the IPSC guys who developed this to get it to make major. The supported chamber (ramped barrel), makes the Super a much more substantial gun. Without it, it is nothing to write home about.
Peter

Peter, RJM will have to tell you exactly what loads he was using in his Supers back then.

He was a very experienced loader and in fact His loads were approved for Duty Use by the Dept. for other Officers, and a lot of them carried his loads.

Bob

There was a method to my Madness in the OP.

I have been somewhat suprised at the few mentions of the 357 for a woods carry gun.

I have also been suprised at the number of people on this Forum that carry the 1911 as their woods gun.

So I was giving the 357 shooters a chance to state their point.

Also I thought you would weigh in on you use of the 38 Super over the years and maybe even mention the Jeff Cooper 38 Super Field gun concept with his Commander and a 6" barrel.

I also there might be a few 357 SIG shooters that would weith in. The 38 Super and the 357 SIG being sorta like a semiauto in 357 Mag.
[I am not going to mention the Coonan ].

I thought some 40 S&W and 10mm shooters would speak up as well.

Peter

Also, I remember A guy that I used to shoot IPSC with. He had a supported chambered, "9mm Luger", with a comp of curse.

He used 38 Super magazines, and loaded his bullets out to take advantage of the longer length the 38 Super magazine allowed.

He also had his barrel throated out to the proper length as well.

He shot loads that made major easily.

A bunch of guys that did not like him tried to keep him from using his 9mm Luger do to the rules.

He called it the 9mm Luger Magnum, and or the 9mm [with his last name], and so they could not disqualify him

One day when they were testing ammo for power factor, after they tested his standard competition loads in his gun, he said here test these too.

They were WAY past Major, a lot hotter than anywone would load a 38 Super.

It seems some of the 9mm Luger cases are thicker/stronger than the 38 Super cases and the taper of the case helps extraction and functioning.

He liked the 9mm Luger case mainly because he had a friend on the PD that could get him 5 gallon buckets of once fired 9mm cases for free...

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I also there might be a few 357 SIG shooters that would weith in. The 38 Super and the 357 SIG being sorta like a semiauto in 357 Mag.
[I am not going to mention the Coonan ].

I've shot the 9x25 Dillon (10mm necked down to 9mm, essentially a .357sig long) a bit out of my G20 with 147gr HP's travelling at just shy of 1500fps. Really substantial round with a pretty flat trajectory. Never did any penetration testing with it. I'd be interested to see how it would perform loaded with some 180gr JSP's. Guessing 1200fps or so?

quote:

I thought some 40 S&W and 10mm shooters would speak up as well.

I spoke my peace

Several responses:
1. I did not mention the 10mm semi auto as that was not part of the original choices. I would probably vote for the 10mm as a "woods carry" gun. My EAA Witness match is very accurate and holds 10 as I recollect.
2. My 38 super (ramped barrel) makes major easily, but so does my 9x21. The 9x23 is probably the best for such purposes as it seems to have been designed for the job ie. make major in a 9mm (356) bullet! However I have no personal experience with the 9x23. My 9x21 race gun is just too big and heavy for "woods carry" but it does hold 19 rounds!!!
Peter.

Peter,
PM sent.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Since we are having a couple of good discussions, with out too much name calling, on this forum, I have another topic for discussion.

The 45 ACP vs the 357 Magnum, with a carry length barrel of around 4" to 5".
Consider the 1911 as an accurate one, with adjustable sights, or good fixed sights sighted in to the load you will use.

This is for daily carry in Urban locations as well as carrying in the Woods.

Your thoughts on revolver vs semiauto, as well as different bullet weights in each calibre are welcome.

I had similar initial shooting experiences to yours. My friend took me out:
Colt Python .357
1911 Gold Cup Colt
I went to the 1911 like a duck to water.

I like what is still around of my hearing. 1911's just point shoot and work for me.

Never did get why they limited the 1911 to the current loads. JMB started with a 200 grain FP at 950 fps. Up the velocity on that to 1200 fps
and I think you've got near a perfect round for social work.

If not the 250-260 grain .45 Colt load was what the 1911 was supposed to equal. Why not use that weight bullet at around 1100 fps?
Does it become ineffective fired from a 1911? With modern metals, springs, and design changes these velocities are doable.

I find the recoil is minimal and the gun is a great point and shoot gun.

I do own a snubby .357. In it's weight class there is NOTHING that puts a 150 grain bullet out at 1131 fps, or a 125 grain @ 1204 fps, and weighs less then 15 oz.
Yes, you might be able to shoot heavier stuff out of it, but I can't.

I have learned to embrace the hand granade effect of a point blank .357 with a 1.8" barrel. My hearing is nearly gone, so it would I hope affect the bad guy more then me.

Speaking of race guns: Why don't the Glock 34 and 35 get more love? Both are glocks I would actually consider carrying, if they cut the cost to around reasonable, like 300 dollars.

N E 450 No2:

I'm sorry to hear of your loss of a truly great weapon for a POS plastic crap gun, thanks to your department. May the decision makers all rot in non-american Hell.

After all that the irony is I have, and like my big revolvers more then my 1911's. Not being LEO, I never really understood this bit of mislogic.

You have a bunch of hunters here that say the bigger calibers will kill as well as a .375 H&H rifle. .475 Linebaugh or bigger is what I'm talking about.
Now if they always tell you to bring a rifle to a gun fight if you are getting into one, why wouldn't you carry a pistol caliber that hit's like that .375 H&H rifle?

If you are worried about over-penetration that can be solved either light fast high velocity FP, or HP. Shootable?
How about a 275 HP at 1600 fps, out of a 3.2 pound revolver? Piece of cake. While some big bad guys might require more penetration, I think that might create a real impression...