I am looking at duplicating the original Keith Load. There are many loads, by that I mean that several cast bullet makers offer a Keith bullet. Was it a 250 or 255, wad cutter/WFN/LFN, with gas check or with out, what velocity, was it a load for the 44 special or 44 mag, could it be duplicated in either cartridge. In your opinion who makes the best replica when it comes cast bullets. Did he have a classic load in 41 and 45? I would like to come as close as possible just because I think it would be nice to link to the past.

Thanks L22H

You need to get a copy of Elmer Keith's "Sixguns". It will answer the questions you have and give you a lot of insight into what the man was doing.

Just to keep you going until you can get more (better) information: In "Hell, I Was There!" on page 199 he says: "I had been loading 18 1/2 grains of 2400 behind my 250-grain bullet a good many years in the .44 Special,..." Speaking of the .44 Mag. "I shot the big gun a good bit that spring and summer and worked out a load of 22 grains of 2400 behind my bullet as my favorite load."

I don't think he used gas checks for his handgun bullets.

FWIW, there is no way in the world I would use that much 2400 with a 250 SWC in a 44 Special. There has been a fair amount of ink used to talk down that load as being way too hot. Elmer was using balloon head cases, and they had a bit more room in them than what we have now, IIRC.

No, he didn't use gas checks, and he specified a 16:1 alloy for handgun projectiles, I believe.

He dropped the charge to 17.5 grains of 2400 in the newer cases. Keith was loading to the potential of the cartridge and not in deference to the older revolvers. .45 Colts may be loaded to a real zinger over standard factory ammo.

His listed load for the .45 Colt was 18.5 grains of 2400 regardless of case head type.

Sending someone directly to the source should be about as good as it gets.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
FWIW, there is no way in the world I would use that much 2400 with a 250 SWC in a 44 Special. There has been a fair amount of ink used to talk down that load as being way too hot. Elmer was using balloon head cases, and they had a bit more room in them than what we have now, IIRC.

No, he didn't use gas checks, and he specified a 16:1 alloy for handgun projectiles, I believe.

I used to shoot that load a lot and I never found it to be too hot -- yes, it's hot, but not overly so in my opinion. I got pretty good accuracy out of it as well.

quote:

His listed load for the .45 Colt was 18.5 grains of 2400 regardless of case head type.

A lot of difference in case capacity between a 45 Colt and a 44 Special.... Not trying to start a rock-throwing contest, but somewhere I read that 18.5 grains of 2400 was just too hot, and it beat up revolvers. As a matter of fact, that load is over half a grain higher than the max load Speer lists for their 240-grain jacketed bullet in the 44 MAG in the #12 Reloading manual!

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
FWIW, there is no way in the world I would use that much 2400 with a 250 SWC in a 44 Special. There has been a fair amount of ink used to talk down that load as being way too hot. Elmer was using balloon head cases, and they had a bit more room in them than what we have now, IIRC.

No, he didn't use gas checks, and he specified a 16:1 alloy for handgun projectiles, I believe.

Depends on the strenght of the revolver, don't you think?

It does depend on the strength of the revolver. But I will say this: a revolver chambered for a cartridge with a standard working pressure of 14000 PSI will not have the same heat treatment and "tempering" done to the frame as will a revolver chambered for something with a working pressure of 35000 PSI.

And therein lies the difference!

IMHO it is best to work up to kieth's loads carefully. I've found them all to be warmer than i care to shoot on a regular basis.

Doubless,

Page 272 of "Sixguns"; and I quote..." Use 18.5 grains 2400 in either old web cases or new solid head cases..." Not throwing rocks, I'm just quoting what the man wrote. Regardless of the opinions of others, this is what the man said he used.

It's best to work up any and all loads carefully. What is not max in one firearm may be very max in another.

Oops, I realized just now that you were talking about 22 grains of 2400 in a .44 special. I know that Keith liked 22 grains of 2400 in the .44 mag behind both a 240 and 250 grain bullet.......

No Whitworth, it has never been 22 grains in a .44 Special. The magnum is what was loaded with 22 grains of 2400. My Model 29 prefers 21 grains.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
No Whitworth, it has never been 22 grains in a .44 Special. The magnum is what was loaded with 22 grains of 2400. My Model 29 prefers 21 grains.

That's what I said. I realized later that he was talking about a .44 special load, and that particular load was one of my regular .44 mag loads -- as I stated in my above post. Wake up Hitman!

I think Lyman went back to the original Keith design with their latest molds.
Elmer had no WLN or WFN boolits, those being a later development. Even original factory loads for the .44 mag were lead semi wadcutters.
If you think Elmer's loads were hot, you never shot the first factory loads! I had to buy them to get brass back in 1956. Recoil was like our .475's today. My very first shot from my new flat top made me look to see if the gun broke!
I shot thousands and thousands of 429421 boolits with 22 gr of the old 2400 out of the Ruger and several mod 29's. None had the recoil of the factory loads. Six quick shots double action from the 29's would deeply checker my hand. Funny that I had between 5 and 6 (Can't remember any more.)29's over the years and never had a problem or damaged a single one. Pressure won't hurt them, only recoil from heavy bullets.
Being a Keith fan, I was shooting stuff at 200 yd's back then at a farmers dump.
Then the mold makers thought they could improve the original and I got away from the SWC.
Sadly the flat top is long gone as is the mold.

I used Hensley and Gibbs mold for the Keith bullets I cast.

I shot many, many of them with 22 or 22.5gr of Hercules 2400. I still have some of that powder left.

I understand that the Alliant 2400 powder made now is faster burning that the older Hercules 2400.

I have not used any of the new Alliant 2400 but it seems that most that have recommend you start with around 18.5 grains with 240gr bullets, and work up.