I think in all countries you can use ONLY factory loads to protect yourself and/or your house.
I have seen that Cor-bon and other firms, have listed for same caliber hunting rounds and self-defense rounds.
I can't understand the difference between these 2 loads, what is good for the deer must be good for bad boy. I know that self defense loads are less powerful with less velocity (100-200 fps less) but i think bad boys won't see the difference between the 2 loads.
I think it is just a marketing issue. What do you think about it?
Posts: 831 | Location: BELGIUM | Registered: 23 May 2002
Hunting rounds have bullets that are designed to penetrate deep and open up slowly. Self-defense loads are designed for use against humans (which have very thin skin) and have bullets designed to open up (expand) quickly. Most hunting loads will penetrate a human body with very limited expansion. Self-defense loads open up (expand) quite a bit more in a human and dump more energy (cause more damage hopefully). An good example of hunting vs self-defense is the .357 Magnum. For self-defense the 125 gr hollow point is supreme. It is to light & rapidly expanding to use on deer, but the 158 gr and heavier bullets work fine for that.
Posts: 4394 | Location: USA | Registered: 17 December 2001
If I shoot somebody inside my home, then I would want all my bullets to stay inside his body. It would not be good if the bullet passes through his body and accidently hits something else that I do not intend to hit. Have fun. Ming
Posts: 1002 | Location: Midwest USA | Registered: 01 September 2001
Most hunters that I know want a tough bullet that will penetrate deeply if you take a shot at a bad angle(quartering away, etc), in a home defense situation you don't want over penetration as you may hit someone on the off side of your adversary.
Posts: 414 | Location: Missouri | Registered: 28 February 2002
It has been my experience with different ammo that the manufacturers take into careful consideration the specific use for the ammo. A case in point is some 357 mag ammo I had lying around. A freind called me and asked if I wanted to put down a diseased cow that he couldn't sell (he understands the affliction of shooting). So I thought to myself I will go and use this 357 ammo. One shot to the head behind the ear from approximately 15 ft resulted in brains squirting out the other side (sorry if this is too graphic).
However when the cow was down I shot once, again at approximately 15 ft since this is a defensive distance, and upon striking the rib bones the bullet almost exploded, we only recovered a few fragments, nothing reached the heart.
So I agree with some of the others, ammo is carefully tailored to a specific need. I carry only CorBon ammo in my daily carry firearm. I am confident that the 38 special will not overpenetrate in a home situation. And you are right, never never never never never use handloads for self defense.
All good posts here, and right on. The overpentration of a hunting handload would be a detriment indoors. The civil liability issue is universal, and the possible criminal liabilty is present depending on where you reside. Local jurisdictions vary greatly over their interpretation of justified self-defense. These issues are of course meaningless while the shit is hitting the fan; you will use whatever is at hand to protect yourself and family. But why not just keep a good, FACTORY human-stopper in your house gun to begin with? It'll be just one less thing to bite you in the a$$ after a very stressful and traumatic incident.
Posts: 240 | Location: Downers Grove, Illinois | Registered: 21 May 2002
I know they want money, but what would they tell the judge? So it would be ok to use a factory Buffalo Bore 500 Linebaugh 435 grain LBT going 1300 fps, but a handloaded 38 Special will get you in trouble?
Posts: 184 | Location: Missouri | Registered: 15 November 2000
I think the stuff about not using handloads is Masaad Ayoob's wet dream. As I recollect he was the perpetrator of this myth. I can think of several arguments to justify using handloads: "This is the load I use for target practice at the range". "It is what I had handy because I was going target shooting tomorrow" "Look, here are my targets showing that I loaded these for accuracy" etc. etc Juries are not stupid As to hollow points, isn't it interesting that we do not use hollowpoints against our nations enemies, but do use them against our own citizens? I personally have no intention of using my 300gr. 1300 fps. 45 Colt hunting loads against an intruder in my house. I expect that the bullet would go right through him, the sheetrock behind him, and probably out of the house and into the neighbor's! As has been stated already, hunting bullets are designed to penetrate and then expand. A hunting bullet will almost certainly go right through a human body without expanding. Use the right bullet for the job. There are plenty of choices. peter.
Peter, My understanding is the Genieva Convention? was the driving force for no softpoint/hollow-nose bullets around the turn of the century. So to get around that these days we use a Hyper-velocity .223 FMJ round that tumbles on impact instead of a slower larger hollow-point that expands? Less incidential damage to the solder in the field! Yeah Right !
As for the self-defense load you high the nail on the head as to the over-penetration. Through the bad guy, My wall, The outside wall, My neighbors Outside wall, and ....... Well you get the picture.
Greg
Posts: 1525 | Location: Hilliard Oh USA | Registered: 17 May 2002
I think Peter is right. Who's to say you didn't buy them from a guy at a gun show. This whole Idea was started by police departments to make sure there officers didn't carry hand loads. They do not want even the slightest hint that there is something wrong. The only arugment that they bring is the lawyer trying to make a case that you did his clinent more damage my using hand loads. Like he wouldn't have died he wouldn't have lost his arm ect ect. Then the argument that you are a gun nut you are just waiting to try your hand loads on a live target ect. I think a lot depends on what part of the country your from ect. If any of these would hold water. Would not your lawyer have evidance that a remingtion 125 shot at 1300 from your hand load isn't any differant than a 125 rem shot at the same speed from a factory load. For those of you who say never use a hand load. What if you are loading your shot gun with your favorite trap load or you are at the range target shooting or just plinking and some body wants to kill you or do great bodly harm are you not going to shoot them because you have hand loads in your gun at the time. More important is if the shooting was justifilble in the first place.
Posts: 19835 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001
quote:Originally posted by Peter: I think the stuff about not using handloads is Masaad Ayoob's wet dream. As I recollect he was the perpetrator of this myth. I can think of several arguments to justify using handloads: "This is the load I use for target practice at the range". "It is what I had handy because I was going target shooting tomorrow" "Look, here are my targets showing that I loaded these for accuracy" etc. etc Juries are not stupid As to hollow points, isn't it interesting that we do not use hollowpoints against our nations enemies, but do use them against our own citizens? I personally have no intention of using my 300gr. 1300 fps. 45 Colt hunting loads against an intruder in my house. I expect that the bullet would go right through him, the sheetrock behind him, and probably out of the house and into the neighbor's! As has been stated already, hunting bullets are designed to penetrate and then expand. A hunting bullet will almost certainly go right through a human body without expanding. Use the right bullet for the job. There are plenty of choices. peter.
I totally agree Peter. I have yet to see proof of a case that has been made to further guilt or liability of a person protecting their home or property using handloads. I also must say that if I ever had to shoot someone breaking into my house, what I shot them with, either which firearm or load, would be the least of my worries. By the way, if one had a .22 and larger firearms in the house, it would seem that some idiot lawyer could make a case that you chose to shoot him with a larger caliber than the .22 and have that make you more liable for his scumbag clients demise or injury. What'cha think?
Posts: 323 | Location: Keithville, La. USA | Registered: 14 February 2002
I will keep my guns locked in the safe, for home defense. But I live in a safe neighborhood with great neighbors- I consider our neighborhood barbeques "home defense"- as we are all together watching out for each other and our kids. Other folks have other situations, and they know whats best for them.
If there was ever a need, I'd be pulling out the 12 gauge with skeet handloads. Unless we were attacked by 1/4" armor plated robotrons- then bust out the Casull with 330 grain heat treated LNTs. I would still worry about overpenetration, but you can't be to careful with robotrons.
I load factory ammo in my home/self defense handguns. I pray I never have to use them.
I don't know about you, but I don't want to have to explain why I shot an intruder with .44 magnum loaded to the maximum with hand loaded hollow points, to my victim's survivor's lawyer in a courtroom full of non-shooters who couldn't get out of jury duty.
StinkyPete, Safe neighborhood? Yeah, mine too, until (a few years ago) some maniac who came from ? entered a neighbors garage in the summer, grabbed a hammer (in front of the mother and her friend) ran out of the garage and scooped up a baby from the playpen in the front yard, (5 ' from screaming mother) threatening to hit the baby in the head with the hammer. About this time, another neighbor, an off-duty state cop, drove by, saw what was happening, drew his sidearm, and ordered the loony to put the baby down. Eventually, and 1/4 mile up the hill, this state cop did what had to be done. The man was a transient from (?) who made a perfectly safe neighborhood less than that. Safe neighborhoods are always that, until they are not! And that State Fish and Game cop was from that day forward considered a friend in the community! Chuck
And when you show them your targets in court to show you've been practicing the bad guys lawyer will ask "If you are such an expert why didn't you shoot him in the leg?" Never save your targets and load factory ammo for self defense. Crazy I know, but why take chances.
Jeff
Posts: 784 | Location: Michigan | Registered: 18 December 2000
In a civil case one may encounter some problems, but in La. we have what is affectionately called the "shoot the burglar law". It basically says that if someone breaks the plane of your domicile, such as crawling through the window, you can blow him right back out of it. We have a similar law about carjacking. I have not seen anyone having problems about exercising the right so far. Civil cases in this state won't normally go against the homeowner/carowner either.
Posts: 323 | Location: Keithville, La. USA | Registered: 14 February 2002
I don't think any rational person wants to shoot another so if you have taken the proper percautions to keep the bad guy out (deadbolts, etc.)and you still face him in your hallway or bedroom, you don't want to face him in court latter in a wheelchair because you wounded him badly and the poor fellow will be confined to that chair for life. You want to make sure the police rule your shooting a justifible homocide and be done with it. So if circumstances warrant that a "reasonable man" should use deadly force, use that force to the fullest. At that point I can't believe handload or factory load would make any difference.
You know in all the homocide, attempt homocide, misc. shooting cases Ive had to sit thru, I never once heard come up this issue of "where and how did you make/buy the ammo" ?
Of course all the offenders in these cases were already scummed up Bags. I imagine its possible the Law would find new ways to screw the Law Abideing Home owner..............J
I know that this is the Handgun section, but a handgun is not the best choice for home-protection. Proper door and window locks, nosy neighbors and a big mean dog are better deterents against home invasion and/or burglary. My handguns are not my first choice against an intruder. My 12ga shotgun is. I use the Hydra-Shok hollow points in my 45 because they are better for use on bad guys than anything I could reload at home. Lawyers didn't figure in that decision.
I rarely shoot factory ammo, so anyone who wants to try my house is going to get home cooked ammo. And my philosophy in such a situation is "Don't be stingy!"
Shoot the hell out of him/them/her. I figure the rules don't apply once they cross my threshold.
Posts: 19677 | Location: New Mexico | Registered: 23 May 2002
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