I have quite a few loading manuals, including Hornady and Hodgdon, but unable to find any high performance loads for the 300 grain Hornady XTP and H-110 yielding a minimum of 1200 fps. Using a Ruger Blackhawk, so published "Ruger only" loads would be good. Even checked the annual manuals put out by Hodgdon but no data for the Hornady XTP. Anybody out there provide any reputable data from a printed source I could verify? Or, lacking that, how about phone numbers for either Hodgdon or Hornady? Need to get this load work done in the next 30 or so days in prep. for a trip to S. Texas and some hog hunting. Thanks,
vern

Even if I found that data in some of my reloading manuals (and I have a couple of dozen) I wouldn't give it to you... The 45 Colt brass is not as strong as 44 Mag cases, and the 45 Colt was never designed to run the pressures that the 44 Mag does.

You may find some data from John Linebaugh that is higher than standard 45 Colt data, but asking for data that clearly exceeds published manufacturer data is asking for trouble, I don't care which revolver you load it in. You don't need the extra "oomph", the wear and tear on a nice revolver, or the potential catastrophe, in my estimation. Pigs just aren't that hard to kill...

Modern 45 Colt brass is as strong as .44 mag brass. The .45 also can give a high velocity with lower pressure then the .44. The Ruger will take loads day in and day out that most people can't handle.
I would use from 21 to 22.5 gr's of 296 with the 300 XTP.
I use 21.5 gr's with the 335 gr LBT WLNGC.
To compare pressure;
.44 mag with a 300 gr bullet, 20 gr's of 296 gives 1290 fps and 35,400 cup.
.45 Colt, 300 gr with 22.5 gr's of 296 gives 1284 fps with 29,900 cup.

That is published data by the way. In no way, shape or form should it be used in Colt revolvers of any age. Only in Ruger, FA or custom guns built on Ruger frames.

You can call Hodgdon at 913 362 9455. They are in the Kansas City metro area so call during business hours, central standard time.

Before you call, you might want to check out their web site. They publish some pretty hot loads for the 200 and 250 gr xtp bullets, but not the 300.

Thanks, bfr shooter and Carlos111 for the info. As for the opinion that hogs aren't hard to kill, I would agree as a general statement. However, last year I had a run-in with a pretty mean hog that later dressed out at 268 lbs that absorbed two factory rounds of 50 ae from a Desert Eagle, one in the lungs and the other just a little bit too far back to hit the vitals and he was determined to do me harm until an end was put to the show by my friends .454 Raging bull. Have traveled to S. Texas once or twice a year for a number of years now to hunt pigs and only seen that one determined charge, but I want a load that will stop a hog bent on doing me harm. The Desert Eagle has been sold, got a new Accusport 45 Bisley and that will be my primary weapon this trip. Now, provided my friend in Texas doesn't try to talk me into that crazy knife hunting thing they do down there, looking forward to another great trip and visiting with good old friends.

Linebaugh had some loads for the 45 Colt I believe. Check out sixgunners.com or sixguns.com.They had heavy loads for the 45 Colt and H110.
Peter.

We wouldn't have the 44 mag if people had only stuck to factory 44 special loads.
The 45 Colt weak brass myth has been proven wrong many times. 45 Colt cases can be loaded and shot in a 454 Casull with the pressures up to 50-60,000 psi without any problems at all.
Many reloading manuals list a seperate section for the 45 Colt in Ruger or Contender.

quote:

The 45 Colt weak brass myth has been proven wrong many times.

I would encourage you to call the folks at Western Powder, tell them that the statement in their Accurate Arms Reloading Manual #2 about 45 Colt brass is "mythical". I am certain they will eagerly accept that their laboratory-obtained results are wrong.

What part of "Never Exceed Maximum Loads" is so hard to understand?

Ever seen a revolver with a topstrap blown? I have... And no, it wasn't mine. Is it worth it? Not to me. I have two eyes, two ears, most of my teeth and what little good looks I was given. I kind of like my face like it is, and the ability to see, hear, taste, chew my food, etc.

But all that makes no sense to those of you that think you are above all that. Every year somebody blows up a firearm trying to do something that the manufacturers caution against trying. Go ahead. Be the next to make the front page of the Darwin awards...

Doubless, where are you seeing that we are exceeding maximum loads? These are loads found in any silhouette loading manual.
I have an accurate manual and they only show no. 2 and no. 5 powders in the .45 with a velocity range of 850 to 900 fps OUT OF A BLACKHAWK, what is that all about? Sounds like they are using old balloon head cases if you ask me.
If I told you the 296 loads we tested in a Vaquero with 335 gr boolits with zero pressure signs, you would spin once and fall dead. I will NOT post those loads.

quote:

Originally posted by Olevern:
I have quite a few loading manuals, including Hornady and Hodgdon, but unable to find any high performance loads for the 300 grain Hornady XTP and H-110 yielding a minimum of 1200 fps. Using a Ruger Blackhawk, so published "Ruger only" loads would be good. Even checked the annual manuals put out by Hodgdon but no data for the Hornady XTP. Anybody out there provide any reputable data from a printed source I could verify? Or, lacking that, how about phone numbers for either Hodgdon or Hornady? Need to get this load work done in the next 30 or so days in prep. for a trip to S. Texas and some hog hunting. Thanks,
vern

Your Hornady load manual must be ancient to not include +P 45Colt loads. My 4th edition from 1991 lists their 300gr XTP, #45230.

21.3gr max WW296 (which everyone knows is the same as H110)
WW lg pistol primer
WW case
1.6" max c.o.l.
1300fps from 10" contender barrel

You will have to enter the search data one category at a time. I couldn't use the cut and paste feature, but here is the link:

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp


Max load with H110 and a 300-gr Speer JSP:
22.2 grains, 1198 fps @ 30,100 CUP.

Max load with H4227 and a 300-gr Speer JSP:
22.3 grains, 1202 fps @ 29,900 CUP.

I don't have any of my handloading manuals within reach, but I believe the SAAMI specs for "standard" Colt loads are limited to about 20,000 CUP. These loads are 50% above that...

Sorry, guys. I don't just make up this stuff!

And the page specifically states for Ruger, Freedom Arms and T/C only...

I have to wonder what kind of "pressure signs" you were using... A lot of ink has been used documenting how hard it is to determine chamber pressures in revolvers outside of a testing lab. By the time one gets to sticky extraction or "riveted primers", often pressures are well above maximum.

Gentlemen, I think the problem may be that the 45Colt is an historic cartridge, and hence original specs. may not be vaild for modern firearms. We may be talking apples and oranges here.
Peter

No way to know for certain, but I suspect it is because of differences in heat treating. If a revolver is going to be used for a higher pressure cartridge, the heat treating is different. Typically the cost will reflect the difference as well, as heat treating is not cheap.

And it is true that commercial manufacturers have no control over what firearm their ammunition is loaded into, so they keep commercial loads rather anemic. (That may be why the Colt "standard" loads are limited as they are...)

Heat treatment is not the answer, it is also better steels. Even modern colt single actions are no way near as strong as the Ruger. The Ruger .45 can exceed .44 mag power with less pressure. There are so many old guns out there that load info is geared so nobody can get in trouble.
Can you compare a WWI bolt gun with a case hardened receiver to a modern Weatherby? How about a forge welded barrel or a Damascus barrel? Why load a modern gun to pressures that are safe in those old time guns?
The new .45 is amazing, why hold it back?

Sorry, guys, didn't mean to stir up a firestorm here.


onefunzr2


"Your Hornady load manual must be ancient to not include +P 45Colt loads. My 4th edition from 1991 lists their 300gr XTP, #45230."

Yeah, I guess my Hornady manual needs updating, I have the second edition (1973) and the third edition (1980) but haven't gotten an update for some time. My third edition predates the arrival of the Hornady 300 gn. XTP. I do have a more recent Hodgdon manual (No. 27) but it only lists loads for the 300 grain Speer bullet.

I have loaded 335 gn. hard cast with H-110, but wanted to try the XTPs this trip and, as you know, the cast load data cannot be used for jacketed, although it probably would have been o.k. to use the same starting load because the cast is 35 grains heavier. I just wanted to use published data rather than extrapolating from my experience with cast because H-110 has a narrow range of use between starting loads and maximum loads...not good to go too low with the starting load.

In any event, thanks to all who were helpful. I was able to contact Hodgdon and get confirmation from them on appropriate starting loads, and recommended maximum.

BFR, if I made the statement on here that the sun rose in the east, you would contradict me. Okay, you are officially on "ignore".

Read it, gentlemen. Even Linebaugh says don't go beyond manufacturer's limits. He does it, but says not to. Go figure...

http://www.linebaughcustom.com/Articles/THE45COLTDISSOL...bid/201/Default.aspx

Doubless, that's the Linebaugh article I was referring to. Thanks for posting it. I have run those loads in my Ruger 45 Colt. Not very often as they are not especially comfortable to shoot!
And I would not run a steady diet of them, for the same reason, but I do believe that they are safe for my firearm. It turns out that H110 is pretty good at turning out impressive ballistics without huge pressures. I suspect that John Linebaugh just doesn't want to get sued!
Peter.

I have an Accurate 2003 reloaders guide sitting in front of me. Page 20 has a column for 45 Colt, page 21 has .45 Colt-High Pressure Loads for Ruger, T/C,FA.
Under the High Pressure column they have data for SPR 300 SP. 1.595"
No.7 14.6 1122fps, 16.2 1220fps
No9 16.9 1163fps, 18.8 1264fps
4100 18.0 1151fps, 20.0 1251fps
They have a tech line listed also 931-729-4207.

People used to assume that 45 Colt brass was weak, because someone said so and it got printed. It's still floating around, but it just isn't true. It's been proven time and time again that modern 45 Colt brass is just as strong as 44 mag or whatever brass.

There are still some people who believe that when a bullet is fired, it goes up, then goes down and somewhere down range it goes back up again. It's just not true. Gravity is a constant. It was a common misconception from the old ballistics graphs.

Why don't you e-mail Starline and ask them if they use the shitty brass when they make 45 Colt cases?
I bought 1000 45 Colt cases from Top Brass a couple of years ago and emailed for info before hand as I had never heard of them. Their production engineer is a 45 Colt fan and shared his attempts to kill the brass with way over pressure loads in a 454. The brass held up fine for him.

Many years ago I used to load my Ruger blackhawk in 45 Colt on the hot side all the time. I eventually needed a new cylinder, but the brass is still good and never wore out or gave any problems even when I had to pound the cases from the cylinder. ( I try to keep my loads more reasonable now)

If you gentlemen will indulge me one more post, I will leave this to the rest of you to sort through. But I leave you with this:

I just weighed five brand new unprimed Starline cases in .44 Magnum, and five brand new unprimed Winchester cases in .45 Colt. (I did not have any Starline Colt cases, and all my Winchester 44 Mag hulls have been fired.) This is purely empirical, but here is what I found...

Starline .44 Mag: 111.7 grains to 112.9 grains, average weight of the five 112.77 grains.

Winchester .45 Colt: 108.0 grains to 109.7 grains, average weight of the five 108.92 grains.

Case lengths were all within .001", something I foung amazing... All ten were 1.076" or 1.077", so length differences are not a factor.

Now: given that the .44 Mag cases weigh more, and are smaller in diameter, (.453" OD vs. .477" OD) does it stand to reason that the Colt brass is thinner? It does to me... And brass thickness should factor into the strength equation, should it not?

I wonder why Winchester would use less brass for a case that is only designed to be shot to 20,000 CUP. I think we all know why... That is why the term "weaker" is used. Not that the brass is weak per se, but compared to the higher pressures of the Magnum cartridges, it is weaker.

Have fun, gentlemen...

(And LAR, I wonder why you needed a new cylinder, and just exactly what you accomplished during ruination of the first one...)

Doubless,

Winchester brass is thinner than most other brands, you are comparing apples to oranges by using different brands of brass. Winchester brass was the preferred brass for making .475 Linebaughs because the thinner walls did not require inside neck reaming.

The myth of weak brass is just that, a myth. An acient holdover from the days when .45 Colts were loaded with black powder and the cylinder walls of the Colt revolvers paper-thin. The Rugers built today are a very strong firearm in both the .44 Mag and .45 Colt versions.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
(And LAR, I wonder why you needed a new cylinder, and just exactly what you accomplished during ruination of the first one...)

I've told the story a couple times, but will again. What I did was stupid and a half baked thought that could have been corrected had we had this forum back then and I could have bounced the idea off of some with more experience on the subject.

Anyway, A friend had just recieved a Linebaugh made 475(it could have been in 94 or 95?) It was quite a blast to shoot and I was really envious of the accuracy that it had even with huge loads. It was quite easy to hit 2 liter bottles at 100 yds.
So I had a case of 475 envy and thought I'd see just how close I could get with my 4 5/8" stainless Blackhawk. I ordered some 405gn 45-70 bullets sized .452" from Liberty Bullets in Oregon. It's a real nice looking bullet with a huge flat point. So I looked at the load info that came with my buddies gun to try and get an idea of what powders to be used in the small space remaining after seating the 1.1" long 405gn bullet. My first instinct was to use WW296, but I thought I would run out of powder room before getting to max pressures, so I looked at the faster powders. The Linebaugh loads showed some respectful numbers with BlueDot.(I was not useing 475 loads in the 45 cases) So I started my load workups with BlueDot. I should have started with the slow powders and then gone to the faster ones.(My Mistake here, it was a stupid one and I admit it. But I learned and went on)
Things were going along nicely with the starting loads and the velocities were about what I'd predicted. At around 1150fps the brass started getting hard to extract. I should have stopped there, but I had one more set of loads and wanted to see what the velocity would be in comparison. The cases were stuck pretty bad and had to be beat out of the cylinder. I noticed a small spiral line in one of the chambers after I got the brass out. I don't know if it was a scratch or a crack starting, but I retired the cylinder and keep it around to remind me that Rugers are not indestructable.
Luckily the Bisley my buddy sent off to Linebaugh was in 45 Colt, so I bought his old cylinder and barrel. I fit the Bisley cylinder to my gun and have been shooting it ever since.
I used Win brass in all of my loads and never had any problems with the brass.


So hopefully you have looked at some of the links that have been posted and are willing to rethink your stand on weak 45Colt brass.

Out of Hornady's sixth edition;

300 gr XTP
Win 296, 21.7 gr = 1300 fps
Win 296, 20.2 gr = 1200 fps
ViHT N-110, 17.8 gr = 1200fps
LIL' GUN, 17.7 gr = 1200 fps

Out of my own Ruger Blackhawk .45LC I've shot a few hundred rounds, actually about 280, of the following loads which I got somewhere off the internet. No sticky cases or pressure signs in MY gun. All loads are with Hornady 300gr XTP
H-110, 23.5 gr = 1250 fps, 32,000CUP, 1191 ftlbs
H-110, 22 gr = ?, ?, ? Killed one black bear with this load. Head shot at 7 yards so not much of a test.....

Thanks again to those who chose to be helpful. I have my first loads made up and will get to the range this weekend, barring rain, sleet or snow.

As for those of you who are rude and just spoiling for a fight, my advice to you is to get a life!

(Even if I found that data in some of my reloading manuals (and I have a couple of dozen) I wouldn't give it to you)

I specifically asked for published data , not someone's personal, untested data. I don't load beyond the published data and have been loading since the early 70's with no incidents. I too, have a couple of dozen manuals, many of which, admittedly are old, but then, so am I. I was just unable to find specific data for a specific bullet I wanted to load, and turned to the board for some help. Some were helpful, some were rude and contentious. It's a shame, as for the most part, this is a great repository of experience and information.

Okay, fellows, I lied... It was unintentional, but I lied. I said one more post and I was through, but I am not. I just want to defend myself.

I never stated that 45 Colt brass was weak. I stated that it was not designed to hold up to the same pressures that magnum cases were. Matter of fact, I specifically stated "Not that the brass is weak per se, but compared to the higher pressures of the Magnum cartridges, it is weaker." And the last two letters of the last word are/were bold intentionally. If I said that the Smith and Wesson was a weak revolver, some of you would jump on that bandwagon immediately. Is the Smith weak, or is it weaker? It is not a weak revolver, but would you say that it is "weaker" than a Ruger? That is written repeatedly... So is some of what I cited. You folks might have read "weak", but I never said that, originally or in a follow-up post.

"The 45 Colt brass is not as strong as 44 Mag cases, and the 45 Colt was never designed to run the pressures that the 44 Mag does."

Now: the first half of that statement was from the AA Loading Manual #2, word for word, and the second half is my thought, due to the SAAMI CUP numbers for the two cartridges. I know about SAA 1st Generations, balloon head cases, and all that. I made what I felt to be a true statement, and I stand behind it.

I did some thinking this morning on the way in to work, and I remember having seen some unfired Winchester 44 Mag cases in a cartridge box. If I find them this evening I will weigh them and report what I find. Fair enough?

A story, and one I am not very proud of... Somewhere in the mid-to late 1980s, when I was still pretty new at handloading, I loaded some 200-grain .427" Remington jacketed 44-40 bullets with load data from a free Accurate Arms publication. (You guys know what I am talking about; it is a giveaway for the handloader, often found at gunshops, and most of the powder companies offer one.) I don't remember the load data, but it was with AA #9. A trip to the range, and I shot some of those loads, along with some of my own cast Lyman 429421 and AA #9, in my 629 Classic. Somewhere along the way, while still at the range, I noticed striations immediately forward of two chambers' timing notches. It scared me, to say the least. I sent the revolver back to Smith, and received a call later that I had not TWO bad chambers, but FIVE. Smith was kind enough to replace the cylinder, but it scared the bejabbers out of me, and I remember that feeling to this day.

I found out later from a silhouette shooter friend that that particular "flyer" from AA was determined to be too hot, and word went out not to use it. Somehow I never got the word, and there is no way Accurate Arms could have ever ensured everyone that picked up one of those loading publications was notified. But I long ago discarded my copy of that particular "freebie".

So Olevern, that is part of why I said to you what I said. I later found information on the Hodgdon website that supplemented my position, and I posted that. (And I DID "reproduce" two loads from their pages that showed 300-grain bullets at 1200 fps, just not the Hornady XTPs that you were looking for.)

I was not "spoiling for a fight", and am not now. I will say this: most of what I have an opinion on is based on experience. And once I form an opinion I am pretty well convinced. My mind can be changed, but it typically takes some talking. I suspect we are all that way...

You also referred to me as "rude" and "contentious". You are entitled to say that. Maybe I will try to wear those descriptions and see how they fit... I meant nothing personal, just felt like maybe I could keep someone else from harming a fine revolver, like I did. I should know better than to try to do that, too, I guess.

Have fun with the hogs.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless: Posted 08 March 2007 19:10
I never stated that 45 Colt brass was weak.
...

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless: Posted 07 March 2007 06:56
The 45 Colt brass is not as strong as 44 Mag cases...

???

quote:

You folks might have read "weak", but I never said that, originally or in a follow-up post.

"Not as strong as" and "weak"...

Please see quote above.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
I don't have any of my handloading manuals within reach, but I believe the SAAMI specs for "standard" Colt loads are limited to about 20,000 CUP. These loads are 50% above that...

Sorry, guys. I don't just make up this stuff!

From Speer #13: "The industry maximum average pressure for the 45 Colt is 14,000PSI."

Also, pertaining to +P loads, "We recommend that these loads be used in new or once-fired cases known to be of recent manufacture. Older cases of the 'balloon head' style aren't strong enough to hold modern pressures."

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I asked the Sierra hotline guys why my Taurus Raging Bull 45 Colt 6 shooter was not just as strong as Ruger and what about using +P ammo for hunting. I was told any brand of revolver that was also chambered in 44 magnum could stand +P loads without reservation. The industry maximum average pressure for the 44 mag is 36,000PSI. I keep my 300gr XTP loads under 25,000PSI. They chrono a little over 1,100fps. Good enough for the kind of big game hunting I do.

Most of the (negative) experiences posted here seem to involve fast powders like AA#7 and #9 and the like. The loads posted by Linebaugh and others use H110 (or its likeness WW296). This was the "breakthrough" if you like for the use of loads that were far more powerful than before ie. the combination of H110 and heavy bullets. I don't believe that many advocate reaching the same "power factors" with lighter bullets.
Peter.

One important thing here is that each of us has to decide for ourselves what we will do or not do. What we belive to be safe to load and shoot.
Just because some Yahoo on the internet says that you can put a 454 round in your 45/410 derringer, doesn't mean that it's a good idea.(I am not suggesting that anyone shoot 454 ammo in a 45/410 derringer)
Reloading can be dangerous if done improperly or wrong info is used.
The prudent thing would be to research any new idea to see if it has merit or is complete bunk.
This doesn't apply to this thread only, but to everything we do.

I take it for granted that everyone here knows to work up loads carefully and never jump to the highest listed load.
I only warn to never use LESS then the starting loads with H110 or 296.
The most accurate loads will be a little over the starting load anyway and it is rare to need the highest load because in most cases they are not accurate.
The 45 Colt is just like the 45-70, very hard to find the right load for your gun because 90% of the loads are enemic for old guns and rightly so. You have to know how strong your gun is before thinking about hot loads.
At least we all know the Ruger's are strong. After all, they stuffed six .480 rounds in the cylinders of Super Redhawks. Not much meat left.

Brass is rated at a certain PSI strength, there are differences of this strength in differing alloys. I am certain that a company such as Starline will not use one brass for the 44 mag and different brass for the 45 colt. brass cases are extruded and then heat treated the difference is the size of the case. Different manufactures will use different amounts of brass WW may use more or less brass to make a case then starline but similar brass will have the same tensil strength (PSI) capabilities.
Ruger revolvers are strong. The 45, 44, 357 etc blackhawk are made with the same alloy of steel and heat-treated the same (I used to do heat treating of tool steel for dies) I am sure that the production line woulden't change a good thing. The difference being the thickness of the web, (the area of the cylinder surrounding the cartrige), The 44 mag is smaller then the 45 colt therefore the 45 shouldent be able to take as much pressure as the 44 mag. but this is spliting hairs as the difference would be the difference opf the diameters of the cartrige devided by 2. Now there are some other factors infvolved here but this is beyond a simple explanation.
I would like to let you know that I have shot 230 grain bullets from my Ruger at 1450fps and have found no damage to the gun, but they did damage deer.
Mike

Perhaps someone could explain to me why so much is made of the strength of the brass? The brass by itself, no chamber, is not strong enough to contain the pressures generated. It is supported by the chamber. Even a split in the walls of the brass should not be dangerous to the shooter. I have had this happen to me occassionally!. Presumably the problem would be if the "head" of the brass separated from the walls, but I don't think this is too likely in straight walled cases.
Peter.

True, brass acts mostly as a gasket, though it is too week in the head it could seperate and release gas.

In a revolver, if a case is too soft, it could setback enough to tie up the gun, and the primer pockets will be loosened up to essentially make it a single use item, not a good thing for handloaders.

From what I have read, modern manufactured 45 colt brass can take whatever load your gun can handle, and there are 5 shooter 45 colts that opperate at 454 pressures, and brass hasn't been a problem. With the custom six guns that have tight chambers, brass lasts a long time.

With heavy for caliber bullets in heavy loaded six guns H-110/W-296 comes into it's own.

Back when I bought my Taurus RB 454(1999ish) I had problems with some factory Win ammo with the 260 and 300 JSP. I had several cases split lengthwise and a couple split radially about 1/2 way around. Many was with the factory load and some more showed up after reloading a couple times(reasonable below max loads). I didn't notice anything while shooting the gun, so I guess it must have formed a good seal with what was left?
I e-mailed Winchester and sent the brass and ammo back, they sent me some Winchester bucks coupons as a refund. Around the same time I did hear of some guys haveing similar problems with Win rifle ammo. I used to use Win brass in almost everything(they don't make 444 cases) but switched to Starline 454 brass.

Peter
The reason for making so much adoo about the brass is that the brass is the weakes link of firearm systems.

I quit using WW brass long ago when I had a .375 super mag. WW is the only maker of .375 brass and every rim was a different thickness. A few would turn past the recoil plate but a lot would not. It took forever to cut them all the same thickness. Not good to have a different headspace on every shell.
I also don't like the thin brass for most of my loading because of poor neck tension. They are strong enough but have too many other problems.
Some were not annealed right and were brittle.