Well my brother got his Blackhawk today. Boy we like it. I loaded up some 230 grain cast round nose over 9.9 grains of AA #5.
NO recoil at all. What a pleasure to shoot The bullets we recovered were almost good enough to shoot again after going through 2 sheets of particle board and hitting a plascic/resin cube. Not sure what the cube is for sure but the lead bulles kind of just hit it and stopped
Several of the 210 grain Hornaday xtp's I shot from my .41 mag did the same thing but they deformed more. I think we are ready to BEEF up the .45. I noticed the AA #5 burns pretty dirty. Also the outside of many of the cases were pretty black. Is this normal? I am very new to shooting a revolver.
I do know we had a blast

Hi Don,

It is addicting isn't it. Accurate lists 11.3 - 11.9 grs for #5 and a 230 gr lead bullet. That soot on the cases is likely caused by the preasure being a little low which cause the case not to seal completely against the cylinder wall. This allows blowby (think of worn piston rings) to get back past the case. In any event, it is not harmful, just dirty. Try increasing the powder charge some. I have never had a 45LC but I understand Unique is a very good powder in it. Have fun.

Terry

Hey there. I've been doing a lot of load testing in my .45 LC (Ruger Blackhawk) over the last month and have found a few loads for you to try.
They are a bit hot but still not near other published load data I've found.

230 gr Speer, round nose lead, over 26.5 grains of H110
230 gr Hornady FMJ, Flat point, over 27 grains of H110
300 gr Hornady XTP/Mag , over 22.5 grains of H110

All of the above loads are lit off with Winchester Std/Mag Large Pistol primers. Be prepared for recoil at least equal to, or above .44 Magnum loads; however they are perfectly safe in my Blackhawk, with no indications of over pressures.
Start about 3 grains lower and work up from there to be safe. Good kick and lots of noise!!!
CDW

I should clarify that these are only for the "New Model Blackhawk".

[ 07-09-2002, 04:36: Message edited by: Woodrow ]

You need to understand that while the Ruger revolver is a good, strong gun; it is not designed for the pressures of the .44 Magnum. Speer says something in the 25,000 psi range is OK. The .44 Magnum is now set at about 36,000 psi, not the 40,000 psi range of it's original loadings.
My data suggests the 230 gr. loads published above are too hot.
Many have found that a good SWC, or jacketed, bullet in the 250-260 gr. range at 1000-1100 fps. to be all they need for many jobs.
This perofmance level is easy to achieve in this gun.
Another thing you need to know is that revolvers don't readily indicate high pressure signs like rifles. They certainly don't have the extra strenth, or safety margins, of rifles. E

(1) The published data that I've read indicates pressures of 30,000 c.u.p. are acceptable, while a few have even stretched it to 32,000 c.u.p. in the Blackhawk chambered for .45LC.

(2) Speer does not make the Blackhawk, and would not be my first choice as an information source for such. As stated incorrectly in your post, Speer DOES NOT state that 25,000 (c.u.p.) but rather all of their loads in their Number 11 Manual "do not exceed 25,000 c.u.p." They DO NOT indicate that this is the safe maximum. Further it also states that "several handloaders have reported using MUCH heavier loads in their Ruger 45's than those listed here." Ironic how it appears that they consult actual handloaders when publishing data, eh?

(3) As assumed in your post, my earlier post didn't indicate that the "firearm" showed no signs of over pressure. (If the firearm shows signs of over pressure, it is likely too late for you and your revolver.) The better and safer indicator would be to carefully inspect the spent brass for signs of over pressures. Such as; early indications of case separation, excessive case expansion resulting in "sticky" cases not easily extracted from the cylinder, loose primers, leaking primer pockets, primers extruded into the firing pin hole, imperfections (scratches, nicks, etc)in your firearm being stamped into your case heads, etc., etc., etc..

The loads shown in my earlier post were fired in my Blackhawk, with none of the above noted signs, multiple times, without incident or the slightest suspicion of exceeded pressures. THIS IS ACTUAL TESTED LOAD DATA......

(4) Buffalo Bore, at www.buffalobore.com
sells heavy .45LC ammunition for the Ruger.
They list a load that can be purchased as follows;
325 grain bullet at 1325 fps, generating 1267lt/lbs of energy. What does "your" load data say about that???

Listed below is more load data for loads that have been loaded and fired.
350gr JSP, H110 21gr, 1092 fps, 31,000 cup
310gr cast, H110 23.5gr, 1316 fps, 32,000 cup
225gr JHP, H110 30gr, 1500 fps, 28,000 cup
260 cast, H110 27gr, 1459 fps, 30,600 cup

This is all data which I have obtained from various sources, including other shooters on the internet. As you can see from my own load data in my first post that I am not running pressures this high, nor was I suggesting it.

The .45LC in a strong firearm like the Ruger has incredible potential. It can be loaded low like factory loads that are easy to shoot all day, or it can equal and exceed the .44 Magnum. No one has to shoot hot loads, but if you don't like the recoil, and noise; buy a .38 Spl.

CDW

[ 07-09-2002, 11:45: Message edited by: Woodrow ]

Jacobite: One more thing now that I'm back from clarifying a few things for "E"...... Yes, the black cases are normal. Every factory load I've fired from Remington with their 225 and 250 grain bullets left the case walls black on the outside. (Buying Factory ammo is a quick,but expensive, way to get brass up here in Canada at times. It is sometimes hard to get.) This has been since the firearm was new. With the hotter loads I listed in my first post, I don't get that at all. As "twillis" mentionned, this is due to the lower case pressures allowing some blow by.
It doesn't mean your pressures are too low though, as factory ammo shows the same symtoms. I knew when I loaded too light once because I had to tip the firearm back to get the powder up against the primer before each shot, or else watch the bullets and unburnt powder puke out the front of the barrel slow enough to actually see the bullet. A chapter by William Dresser, in the NRA book "Handloading" talks about minimum loads. He actually reduces loads down until a bullet "fails to leave the barrel." Safe as it may be, hammering bullets out of barrels doesn't sound like much fun!!!
CDW

Woodrow,
Thanks for the load data. I upped the load of AA #5 and the loads are burning much cleaner. However the gun is throwing bullets every where. My brother is admittedly not a real good shot and needs lots of practice. I myself am not the best but do much better with my .41 Tracker. I get a nice group with it. I personaly don't like the grip on the Blackhawk. I prefer the Bisley grip better. At least holding it, never shot one. I know from past experience Blackhawks are accurate so I figure it will just take time. Might even send the cylinder to get reamed. First thing though is heavier bullets and much more practice.

Jacobite - See if you can find a copy of the June issue of Handloader magazine. Brian Pearce does a workup of a BUNCH of loads for the 45 Colt, ranging from low pressure ones suitable for weaker Colt SAA's up to "all you care to handle" loads suitable for Blackhawks and Redhawks. Excellent reading for 45 Colt shooters/loaders.

Blue Dot makes for some excellent mid-range loads (around 1100 FPS with 260 grain cast bullets). Unique is a little dirty, but, a classic 45 powder.

A set of Uncle Mike's grips will make the heavier loads a little more palatable.

R-WEST

Try some H110 with a good Keith bullet. If you get one that is around 255gr recoil shouldn't be bad. Also, I have heard that the Hogue rubber grip is pretty good on a Blackhawk. Definately get the throats opened up to .452. My brother reemed his cilynder and some of the throats where as small has .449.

For some great .45 Colt reading check out http://www.sixguns.com/ and http://www.sixgunner.com/.

Just an FYI for those interested in Ruger 45 Colts, and a shameless promotion of my own auction go to the following:

GunBroker Auction - Ruger Bisley 3" MagNaPort

Woodrow, I've been around a long time. Before the .44 Mag became a factory round.
Elmer Keith went to the .44 Special from the .45 Colt because he learned the hard way they are stronger guns.
When the .44 Magnum became a reality, he loaded his at about 5,000 psi less than he figured the factory ammo was loaded. That's because he learned just how strong revolvers are not. The hard way.
Here you go quoting loads. I don't see any primers or cases mentioned. Do you really think they are all the same ?
I've watched lots of custom ammo makers come and go. The brand you mentioned wouldn't chamber in a shooting buddy's gun at my local gun club. I'm suppose to believe they make good, safe products ?
All I suggested is the fellow with his new .45 Colt understand a few things. You want him to push the limits as do you. I'm a little tried of seeing people break down their guns with hot loads. So I suggest caution.
If he doesn't want to consider what I suggest, then it's on him.
What's the matter with buying a .44 Mag. or a .454 Casull if that's the performance you want ? Those guns are designed for what you want by people who understand these things. E

Though I don't want to heat up a disagreement here, I've got to go with Eremicus on this one. Hot loading the .45 Colt, while possible, just doesn't seem necessary. Push a 260 gr. bullet at 1100-1200 fps and it'll do pretty much anything a revolver is called upon to do. I've had ignition problems with H110/WW296 and standard primers (even the dual purpose Winchesters) and use only magnum primers with the slow ball powders and large revolver cases. For the most part it was just easier to switch to 2400 and get all I want from the .45 Colt. Ed

I think when the nostalgia of the wood cowboy looking grips wear off my brother will get some rubber grips. As for me I will stick to my .41 mag for awhile. I just put $800 out for a new stock for my deer rifle and am thinking about a new trigger and maybe even more checkering than planned before it is done so I don't see a new pistol in my near future. When I do I think it will be a .480 Ruger just don't know what model. One of the local gun shops has got a couple used Anacondas and if one was a .41 or .44 mag I might change my mind. However they are .357 and I am not interested in that.

Alright, Alright.......

Eremicus, you stated:

quote:

---

"When the .44 Magnum became a reality, he loaded his at about 5,000 psi less than he figured the factory ammo was loaded. That's because he learned just how strong revolvers are not. The hard way."

---

So this fella also knows more than the manufacturer of factory ammo???? YES, I know who "this fella" is. However you fail to take into consideration the article Elmer Keith wrote about giving up on the .45LC and going to the .44 Special, WAS WRITTEN IN THE 1920's!!!!!! In the times of balloon head .45 brass, and NOT in the time of modern brass and modern .45's like the Ruger and comparable others!!!! Also, am I to assume that he figures that all those millions of rounds designed and sold (for the .44 Magnum) are made by various ammunition makers who don't know what they are doing and are actually loading factory ammo too hot?? I mean the guy actually had a sixgun fail on him....does this mean his loading practices were exactly by the book? I don't understand the basis for this in your debate. Do you also condone / promote owning a Dodge Viper and do 5 mph slower than the posted interstate speed limit to be extra safe?

You also stated:

quote:

---

"I've watched lots of custom ammo makers come and go. The brand you mentioned wouldn't chamber in a shooting buddy's gun at my local gun club. I'm suppose to believe they make good, safe products ?"

---

Be specific, why wouldn't they chamber? What bullet weight ( actually thinking length) were they? OAL too long for his particular cylinder? What kind of revolver was it?

Lastly, you stated:

quote:

---

"What's the matter with buying a .44 Mag. or a .454 Casull if that's the performance you want ?"

---

I personally can't afford to buy a different handgun for each type of shooting that I feel like doing. The .45LC is lately becoming higher profile due to shooters realizing it's potential; with modern firearms. I am not quoting load data and demanding people use it. In my first posting, I gave actual tested load data that I have used. The second posting showed other load data which I have gained from other shooters, and have not used. As in all cases, the responsibility is in the handloader to carefully work up to his/her hot loads. I trust a beginner will question and discuss these matters with more experienced handloader in order to gain experience, which is what I've done in the past and I'm sure you've done in the past. This is how various loads are developed.
BUT, your comment in your first posting which stated my "230 grain loads are too hot" is completely unsubstantiated.....and incorrect. You quoted misleading information, from Speer, to back up your statement which I've tried to clarify for you. Do you even own a .45LC ? What are your loads? What load research have you done for the .45LC ? I'm giving actual tested data from my own gun, and you seem to be using everyone else's opinions and data. Just curious.....
By the way, my load data in the first posting were with Winchester cases.

As suggested by Sharkbait in an earlier post, go check out www.sixgunner.com and www.sixguns.com andread a bit about John Taffin's results / loads. You'll find him talking about using loads like: 325 gr, H110 21.2 gr, @ 1139fps
and a 360 grain bullet at 1180fps, things like that.....

To answer your last question, I'll answer it with a question. Why go buy a .44 Magnum, when you can equal and exceed it with the .45LC?????

CDW

[ 07-10-2002, 11:01: Message edited by: Woodrow ]

Once Again. Just read some of the articles at http://www.sixguns.com/ and http://www.sixgunner.com/ and you will be sold on the .45 Colt. There is more valuable information from folks like Taffin than you will ever be able to gather in this forum.

[ 07-10-2002, 18:29: Message edited by: Shark Bait ]

Shark Bait -

quote:

---

There is more valuable information from folks like Taffin than you will ever be able to gather in this forum

---

Double AMEN to that one, brother.

R-WEST

R-West,

A couple of years ago those articles sure made me see the light and convinced me of the potential of the .45 Colt. And now, several years later, I am realizing them in real life with several revolvers in this caliber. What a great round!

Shark -
It IS a blast to shoot, isn't it? I LOVE those big holes it puts in things.

Don't get me wrong, I really like my Smith 29, but, it certainly can't compare with a properly loaded 45 Colt in a modern handgun. Physics always wins.

R-WEST

R West and SharkBait:

THANK YOU ..... Not sure ol' Eremicus will ever be convinced though...hehe

Eremicus: (and others interested) To further and add to SharkBait's suggestion, check out the following link.
http://www.sixgunner.com/linebaugh/dissolving.htm

CDW

[ 07-12-2002, 11:20: Message edited by: Woodrow ]

Where'd you go Eremicus??

I've been doing a little scouting in the high country, Woodrow. The 30 inch buck I hunted last year is back. So is the other one on the next ridge.
You like links to sensible articles ? Try reading the posts on the Reloading page under Handgun Powders.
Speer, in their No.12 manuel, points out that handguns don't "warn you" as reliably about hot loads as well as rifles do. They strongly recommend you follow their loads exactly.
To my knowledge, Ruger does not recommend, or condone, what you are doing. Most of the information you cite is from people who play around at their loading benches.
But, the bottom line, seems to be you want more than the factory ammo provides. I suggested that you really don't need a 300 gr. bullet for much of anything.
I recall an occassion when Bob Petersen, many years ago, took a Kodiak Bear, a Polar Bear, and an Alaskan Moose with his .44 Magnum. He used standard 240 gr. Norma ammo. The penetration he got was amazing. Those bullets would expand very little. He needed no help in taking his animals. Nor did he have to "carefully place" his shots.
A good 250-260 gr. bullet can easily be pushed to 1100 fps out of the .45 Colt Blackhawk. I submit that will do whatever you need to do.
Elmer Keith, in his great book Sixguns by Keith, cited numerous examples of the great penetrating power of the round nose 250-255 gr. factory .45 Colt loads on things like grizzlys, crazy broncs, etc. He had great faith in it.
Best of luck to you. E

I am relativly new to the revolver game, and as I don't want to get involved in a caliber war I won't even mention what I shoot.
But, some observations: How big a hole must be blown in the ground on the other side of the animal to be enough? Most of the data I have seen indicates 250 to 300 gr hard cast bullets at 1100 to 1200 fps is more than adequate for medium sized game. This would include elk.
My load books show that in most cases this can be considered a modest level load. Anything higher punishes the shooter with virtualy no gain in killing power. I have shot my revolver with max loads according to the book, and since it is a Ruger, with some more than max. I didn't like it at all.
Most "old timer" like my self agree that 850 to 1000 ft/lbs of energy is sufficient for white tails. The Taylor KO numbers(whether you agree with them or not) indicate around 20 is sufficient for whitetails.
Shoot the 250s for deer types, 300s for hogs, black bear and elk.
Most handgunners will agree that any caliber that can meet these requirements is sufficient.
So, my question would be,"Why beat youself up when you don't have to?"
Shoot a reasonable load that will humanely take the animal in question.
Now if you are hunting Coastal Grizzlies, Cape Buffalo or T-Rex maybe you shouldn't be using a handgun at all.

oh bother!!!
The hornaday books take the 300 gr to 1100+, and that's not stressing the gun. The modern 45LCs in RUGER guns are being loading to CRAZY speeds, easily topping the 44 mag, and right on the heels of the 454 (which is a 357/38 relationship with the 45lc). However, since I am a big bore fan, in rifles and pistols, I'll go with a high SD bullet anyday. That means heavier for caliber bullets. And, since you might want to shoot something past 25 yards, getting all the speed you can counts, as long as you are safe.
I have a great vaquero bisley, and it shoots the heavy stuff just fine and danday. It does NOT like cowboy action lead loads. My normal carry (for a backup) is a 225 at 1400, and my pistol hunting load is a big xtp at 1150. It's the 5.5 inch barrel, and, get this, i am NOT showing pressure sign.
These guns are strong, the first 454's are nothing but 45lc's with new cylinders.

nothing wrong with determining what you gun can do, as long as you are SAFE.
jeffe

Eremicus:
You're right! I do want to exceed factory ammunition for the .45LC. Factory ammo is easy and fun to shoot sometimes, but ballistics wise, is pathetic. I assume this is for liability reasons, being there are so many old SAA revolvers and the likes still out there.
Now, to clarify something: I am loading these "hotter" loads for a special reason. I hold a Canadian permit to carry my revolver at work. I work year round in remote wilderness areas of Canada, and due to the type of work I do I am not able to carry a long gun. The revolver is my primary means of defence of my life and the lives of my clients should I/we run into trouble with wildlife. (Black bear, Grizzly, protective Cow Moose, Rutting Bulls, etc.) This is not used as a back up weapon like some hunter's do in the States. It is prohibited to hunt, or carry as a back up, a handgun in Canada. Therefore, recoil and noise is not really an issue with me, whereas ENERGY and BULLETS are. It is desirable to be pushing out a bullet to create the highest energy possible, while not stressing the firearm, and still shooting well. Realistically, I will possibly have time for one shot, two if I'm lucky.
Other than that being my main reason for loading for this calibre, at my age I still like the noise, recoil, and the looks on the faces of those competition .45ACP shooters down at the club range,; when those warm loads go off! Maybe I'll regret it in another 20 years when arthritis starts to set in to the wrist.
Good shooting fellas, and good luck trying to get your 30-incher this year Eremicus!

CDW

I have fired a couple thousand rounds with a hardcast 300 gr. truncated cone and 22.0 gr. of H100 at ~1320 fps. through a 7.5 inch Vaquero .45 Colt. It's still as tight as it was when it came out of the box. However, 9.5 gr. of Unique at a leasurely 1020 fps. will probably do anything I would want to do with it.

Whoops ... make that H110.

GunGeek -

How does the Vaquero handle the heavy loads, recoil-wise? I've tried some of them in my Blackhawks, and they about broke my wrists.

Welcome, by the way.

R-WEST

R-WEST:

230 gr Speer, round nose lead, over 26.5 grains of H110
230 gr Hornady FMJ, Flat point, over 27 grains of H110
300 gr Hornady XTP/Mag , over 22.5 grains of H110

The loads listed above are some of the warmer one's I've tested out of my Blackhawk (Also mentionned earlier in this string). I think I've found the secret for felt recoil with this gun. It has the 7.5 inch barrel. I've found that the harder you grip this gun, the more it'll bite you. I now grip (factory wooden grips) the gun quite loosely; and let it kick itself up in my hand, as opposed to trying to squeeze the life out of it. A lot of the recoil energy is dissipated when the gun rotates up. At first when shooting hot loads, the bottom of the grip frame would bite my little finger, and the trigger guard would bite my middle finger. Shooting with a little less pressure on the grip allows me to increase my accuracy, and make it more comfortable to shoot. Worked for me anyhow.
CDW

[ 07-19-2002, 05:17: Message edited by: Woodrow ]

How hard one should grip the gun is a very subjective question. With a full power load in the 500 Linebaugh or 475 Linebaugh, it will bite you one way or another if you do not grip it firmly. In general, I would say that one must grip the gun firmly but not deadly or loosely. Have fun. Cheers! Ming

R-WEST, I agree with Woodrow ... a looser grip that allows the gun to roll back in the hand makes the heavier loads a lot easier to handle. Although I don't own one, I have shot hot .45 loads in a Freedom Arms. The grip frame on the Freedom Arms is somewhere between the BlackHawk/Vaquero and the Bisley, and doesn't roll back as easily as the Vaquero and seems to slap my hand a little harder. That's not saying anything negative about the Freedom Arms .. it's a hell of a nice gun.

My pet load is 24gr of IMR 4227, mag primer, under a 240 jhc sierra

Woodrow wrote:
"As suggested by Sharkbait in an earlier post, go check out www.sixgunner.com and www.sixguns.com andread a bit about John Taffin's results / loads. You'll find him talking about using loads like: 325 gr, H110 21.2 gr, @ 1139fps
and a 360 grain bullet at 1180fps, things like that.....

To answer your last question, I'll answer it with a question. Why go buy a .44 Magnum, when you can equal and exceed it with the .45LC?????"

Woodrow,
I have no axe to grind with the 45 Colt, I know several people who love them. I have heard from them and also from you that the 45 Colt exceeds or is better than the 44 Mag. Using Cor Bon ammos data:
http://www.cor-bon.com/traditional45.html
http://www.cor-bon.com/44magnum.html
I calculate Taylor�s Knock Out Formula of 25.0 for the best 44 load (320 gr. @1270)and 25.2 for the best 45 Colt load (300 gr. @ 1300). Not enough difference to be significant.
John Linebaugh painted a much larger difference in favor of the Colt in THE .45 COLT
DISSOLVING THE MYTH, DISCOVERING THE POTENTIAL

Hey it's fine by me if you favor the Colt, but there's no reason to belittle the 44. They are both fine big bore handgun rounds.
Greg

[ 08-10-2002, 23:15: Message edited by: Greg K ]

I wont bore you with pressure data or factory and reloading book data. Just my experience I have shoot enough lead out of my .45s to sink a ship. My favorite light load is 10-12 grians of hs6 with any 250-255 grain semi wad cutter. Its accurate in all of my .45s clean burning and pleasant to shoot. My standard big load is 23.5 grains of 110 with a 300-340 grain CAST bullet. I dont know about the big jacketed bullets but Im sure theres more pressure with them. Now my bisley vaquaro has shoot probably 10,000 rounds of 320 lfn (ballistic cast mold) and 300grain kieth (rcbs mold) behind 24.7 grians of 110 and is just as tight as the day I bought it and just as accurate. The only reason I bumped up my standard charge in this gun is that it shoots into an inch at 25 yards with this load and these bullets. I will be the first to admitt that the difference on game between 22 grains and 25 grains of powder is abosolutly nothing I have shot dear and black bear with both loads and get complete penetration with both and how much better can that be. The big load has been shoot through all of my rugers with absolutly no problems. When I load for my smith 25 I dont use the 300 grain bullets and with the 250 grianers keep it to no more then 22 grains of 110 another great powder in this round is h4227 trie between 20 and 25 grains with all bullets depending on the power level you are looking for. I just started playing with hs7 and it shows great potential too. I love my guns and if I tho;ught in any way I was hurting one of them beleive me I wouldnt be doing it. That vaquaro is like one of my kids!