I'm a new contributor and I'm looking for folks' opinions about an all-purpose autoloader and cartridge to use for hunting, from rabbit to White-tail deer. I've done a little research, and have developed my own opinions, but not enough to make a decision, yet. Here's some of my ideas.

First, it's gotta be an autoloader. I don't know what it is; perhaps the umpteen gazillion rounds I've shot in training, but I am much better with the autoloader than a wheelgun. I've hunted rabbits and squirrels for years with .38 specials, .357 mag, 7.62 Tokarev, .44 special and .45 ACP

Second, I'm not hung up on creedmore-type accuracy. I also don't have any "favorite" cartridge choice, but I've kind of limited my choices to the following:

.45 ACP, especially the +P and the +P+. Availability and ability to train with downloaded cartridges. Lots of guns out there at reasonable prices.

10mm. Currently two guns, Glock and EAA Witness. Colt Delta elite too pricey.

.357 Sig. Qualifies by Iowa state law for hunting white-tail. Probably more flexible for rabbit hunting, etc, but also harder to reload.

.38 Cassull. Jury still out on this round. Does anyone make a gun for this? Besides Cassull?

.40 S&W. Just a little 10mm. Don't know if it's powerful enough for white-tails, though it is legal in Iowa.

As far as the type of firearm I choose, I am a cheapster. I have a lot of projects and want to spend the minimum necessary, within practical limits.

Thanks for all your help, you're helping me bide the time here, out in the SWA desert.

Drew

PS-Kuwait is proof that God keeps a cat. World's largest litter box

357 mag Desert eagle

desert eagles are cool but i always liked the automag better. to bad they are so high priced (if you can find one). hard to find a better auto handgun than that stainless steel marvel of gun craft.

I think the 45acp is pleany powerful for animals up to small whitetails. As far a an economy gun, the newer LLamas are a good bargain, the ones I've shot and owned are really accurate and reliable. They won't take a +p or +p+ load for long though. I have an AMT longslide hardballer, some people bad mouth them as junk, but mine shoots good, it's pleanty accurate and strong enough to take +p+ loads. I've shot some hot loads of a 230 at 1300 out of it without any visible signs of damage, not too many though.

My 44 Automag is easier to load for now that Starline is making brass. It's a real pain to inside ream 308 cases by hand. The 44AMP is reasonably powerful and accurate, it's a real pleasure to shoot. I meet all kinds of guys when I pull it out at the range. Everyone wants to shoot it. It doesn't fall in the bargain priced category though.

If your in the military and have access to once fired 45 brass, grab it. I have a pile of TZZ brass and it is great, I've used the monster loads with it with no ill effects, the primer pockets mostly dont need reamed. It takes reduced loads for normal velocities though.

Don't try to shoot white tail with a 40 S&W. It just won't work.

How about an AMT in 30 Carbine? I have one.
peter.

120mm
Since your in Iowa and the deer tend to be on the large side(Corn Fed) the Minimum would be the 10MM-with a 45ACP you would be limited to under 50 yds even with a 255-260 gr load. If your not reloading definately the 10MM cause know one I know loads any what I would consider "hunting rounds" in the 45ACP? I love my 45 ACP but don't consider it a full time hunting Caliber.

120mm
Let me say the following first as to "qualify" my answer.
I have killed whitetail deer with a 9mm, a 45ACP, and a 44 Magnum. I also killed a Mule deer with a 45ACP. I have killed deer and pigs with a 44 Magnum. There is a BIG, BIG difference in performance. The 44 is much superior.

A properly modified 1911 45 ACP is my favorite handgun.
However a Magnum revolver is a superior field handgun. A 44 Magnum is the far superior hunting handgun, even in a 4 " bbl....
But you prefer the autoloader...it can be done. I have shot most of the Magnum autoloaders. I would recommend the LAR GRIZZLY in 45 Win MAG or in 50 AE. It is most like the 1911 and the ones I have shot preformed real well.
Another option is to have a 1911 in the 45 Super. If I was going to have a pistol in this caliber I would have it made like a "comp gun" with a 6" bbl, or with a standard slide and a 6" bbl which would extend past the slide. Jeff Cooper had a 38 Super made up like this years ago. The extra inch gets you extra velocity, and a "comp" takes out the recoil, thus the pistol will last longer between tune-ups.
Still all in all I prefer a 4" S&W 44 Mag as a "holster" handgun and a 6 or 6.5 inch S&W for a primary hunting revolver. [ If/when I ever get "real" serious about hunting big stuff with a handgun I would get a Freedom Arms in 475 ]

Thanks for the replies. A rereading of Iowa law shows that handgun cartridges must be .38 cal or larger, and straight (non-necked) cartridge. I'm guessing that leaves the 10mm or a .45 +P+. As far as affordability, I'd think an M1911 clone with all-steel frame and a stiffer spring might handle occasional +P+ use. On the other hand, the EAA Witness in 10mm should do the job as well. I haven't looked into othe 10mm or .45 Glocks, yet. I used to shoot an G19, but don't know how good the Glock is with the higher power rounds. I'm also not convinced that the Glock trigger is really practical for hunting.

A really sweet trigger on an M1911 in .45 or EAA Witness in 10mm would probably make a decent gun for my purposes

Comments?

Drew

[ 05-10-2003, 03:42: Message edited by: 120mm ]

You might also give some thought to the .45Super or the .460Rowland for game up to whitetails. RKBA!

I would second the motion for a .45 Super, or .460 Rowland. You already have the platform, and the conversion is simple and reasonably inexpensive.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Bug.

Sooo. What is a .45 Super or .460 Rowland and where do I go to read about it?

Drew

Drew,

A couple of years ago I was "retired early" as a result of my employer having been acquired by another company ... the new company let a lot of us go!

At any rate, hunting season rolled around and I started to look through the stuff for my 41 Mag revolver which is fitted with a 2x scope. I found the pistol, but could not for the life of me find the scope mount! (I did find all of the stuff for the next season and the 41 Mag works very well for deer too.)

Only pistol left in the safe that was legal and interesting was a single column 1911 that had been built into a 40 S&W race gun. It was set up to run almost the same cartridge length as a 10mm. It had a nice Bushnell Holosight mounted on it.

So, I grabbed some of the race ammo I had loaded for it and sighted it in. Chrono showed the Nosler 135 HP load to be running at 1350 fps. Pretty wicked.

Went up the hill and zapped a doe with the rig at 65 yards as I remember it. She turned toward me just as I pulled the trigger. Projectile entered the left front chest and detonated. The big girl did a front summersault on impact and was dead when she hit the ground.

The 10 mm you have, with a good sighting system ... and there are some because the Witness has been used as an IPSC platform ... is PLENTY. You just need a more hardy bullet than I was using. Something in the 180 grain range as a soft point should do just fine!

Hang in there ... hope things are going OK with you and the rest of the folks in country.

I like the out of production S&W 1006 much better than the various Colts I've shot in the 10 mm. Mine puts three in 3/4's of an inch @ 25 yds. The only thing I would change on the gun is the trigger. I haven't found anyone who can give me a nice creep free trigger like my Kimber .45. Even with that, it is compact, holds ten, and is plus/minus 2 inches all the way to 100 yds. with 180 gr. Golden Sabers. E

Well, so far an EAA Witness 10mm sounds really attractive. Anyone have experience with this piece?

Drew

I shot a bear with a 357 mag and that got bad in a real hurry. I will never ever recommend a 357 for hunting ever. It's a self defense gun period. I have a desert eagle 44 mag. That's the way to go. Don't have enough time to tell the story, but if you want to e-mail me I can give you a general run down.

We here are not so blessed with such array of calibers.Favourite auto caliber is 7.62Tok, closely followed by 9mm and .38 Spl,largest styles of bullets are available in 9mm; soft points and such,and that is my favourite caliber in carry around gun and I am planning to aquire Walther P-38.
What I am not sure about is that out to 50 yds, can 9mm punch hole through small boar or even smaller deer like hog deer with militay 124 gr bullet or 147 gr hp is better choice.
I have posted my question in this topic because it is related with only difference in caliber.

If you've got the cash and can find one, you might want to look at the Wildey Automag in .475 Wildey or .45 Win mag. Just checked - there are 3 on gunbroker.com in 45 Win mag. Not cheap, but will give you a little more confidence for whitetail and just about anything else in the lower 48!

If I was faced with your requirements the choice would be narrowed to two handgusn. First would be a LAR Grizzly in .44 Magnum. A friend had one of these a few years ago, and I did the load developement work for it. This handgun dearly loved 240gr. Remington SJHP's loaded over Alliant Blue Dot Powder. Accuracy was great as was the reliability. If I remember correctly these loads chronographed 1350 FPS out of the 5 1/2" Barrel. In addition we also loaded 240gr. Hard Cast SWC's over 7 to 8 grs of Alliant Unique. Again accuracy was great as was the functioning.

Another Handgun I have taken several Whitetails with is a Second Generation S&W Model 645. I added a heavier recoil spring from Ace's Custom .45's, and followed his loading advice. I was shooting 185gr. Nosler JHP's loaded with Alliant Blue Dot Powder to a velocity of 1150 FPS (yes I could have loaded it a little hotter, but it did what I wanted it to do), accuracy was quite good (at least for me with Open Sights), and the performance on Whitetails was quite good.

Back in about 1988 or 1989 I had a Coonan Arms Model B .357 Magnum 1911 Style Semi Auto Handgun. This gun was a pure treasure, and I am still trying to figure out why I sold it. Handloaded 125gr. Winchester JHP's loaded with Blue Dot easily achieved 1600 FPS with decent accuracy. 170gr. Sierra JHC's loaded with W-296 achieved 1375 FPS with great accuracy. However the performance on game with this load was not as impressive as the above mentioned .45 / 1185gr. Nosler Load.

Good Luck in your quest, there are more choices out there than you realize.

Larry

I'd have to say that conventional loads in the .45 ACP are good whitetail medicine, within their limitations. The old Speer 200 grain "flying ashtray" at 1000 fps would be my choice. Any good 185 grain JHP, like the Remington load sounds good too. There are numerous premium bullets designed to expand and hold together too. The other way to get good hunting performance with more penetration would be a slightly heavier bullet like the Speer 225 grain bullet if you must break more than a rib going in. If you compromise with a .45 ACP, keep up the practice with you hunting load until five inch groups at 50 yards are routine. Just an idea, use a "fragile" hollow poiint for the first round and a slightly "stouter" load for the magazine. One other modification to the basic .45 ACP, with five inch barrel, use a heavier spring set to save battering the frame.

I would have to go with Joe Mack and the 460 Roland. I have one and am verry pleased with it..

I'd look around for a used fully supported barrel, and just use .45 Super brass. If all you want is lots of penetration, the 200 gr swc, at 1200 fps, will provide that. Or the 165 gr HydroShok or Powerball, loaded to 1400 or so fps, will do just fine on side shots into ribs of smaller deer, to 50 yds or so. The limitation is not the cartridge, but the man doing the shooting, you know. With a braced position, fully camoed, in a blind, on a tree stand, fully scent-masked, this setup will do you proud. It has at least as much range as the best bowhunters can hope for, and 2-3x what most of them have to settle for. Just don't try either shoulder shots or rear-angle shots with the lw jhp's. They might reach the vitals, but not exit. No blood trail = a lot tougher job of tracking. No exit wound often means a lot slower case of lung-collapse, too.

The Wildey has a terrible grip on it. It's huge and blocky and has sharp corners. I much prefer the AutoMag. Neither one is really cost effective though.

Hello 120mm,
I just looked up the regs at the IA. DNR and you should take a look yourself as to what is legal for deer.
http://www.state.ia.us/government/dnr/organiza/fwb/wildlife/icons/02deerturk.pdf
go to page 5 for legal handgun info.
Personally, I would use a .45acp with 230 gr Federal hydrashoks if I wanted to use an semi-auto. Your 10mm should be just as good. Shoot them in the lungs.
DMC

120mm check some local pawnshops for a good used 10mm D.E. or glock. The 10 will work if you practice with it.

Second a stout load in 45 will also do the job.
If you can find one a L.A.R. Grizzly would be my first choice if I was buying a new gun. Dan Wesson has a new 10mm and a 45.

Either way you go practice before you go out and do it with the ammo you plan to hunt with.

I haven't read ALL the replys but I read enough to deceide to put my 2 cents worth in. I have one of each of the caliburs listed and many of the different firearms. Of the ones listed I would definitely support the choice of 10MM EAA. I have one with the carry-comp configuration and it is extreemely reliable and very accurate out to 75 yards. Different bullet weights and configurations cause different distructive force but the 150 grain and bigger hollow points are very effective. I know you do not use wheel guns but the 10mm is also very good in the S&W wheel gun also-rivaling the 41 mag for power and accuracy. bobp