I am posting here hoping to get the input of Whitworth and bfrshooter as you guys seem to have a handle on these things. I have and love my Freedom model 83 in 454. I wanted a companion singleshot rifle and found a Browning 1885. Ruger has now come out with a 460S&W #1 sporter. The 1885 has 1:26 twist, the #1 has 1:12 twist. I have had numerous extraction problems with the 1885 shooting full house loads. I assume the longer barrel 1885 may help get velocity up to stabilize the heavy bullets, but I have had numerous #1s and never had a problem. I also think the #1 with its 22 inch barrel will be easier to handle.
My question is, twist wise am I better to go with the 1885 and try to get Browning or a good smith to fix the extraction problems, or sell it and get the Ruger and be done.

Andy B

I am not either of the two guys you want the answer from, but the slower twist barrel would be better for the 460 S&W Mag. So I would get the Ruger #1. The 22 inch barrel will work just fine.

If you are pushing the 460 Mag to max loads, you will have extraction problems, the pressure the S&W 460 Mag is under is already very high. Usually when you have extraction problem, you are getting to max pressures, which will cause extraction problems. Back off on your load some, and see if you still have the problem.

I didn't know Browning made an 1885 in .454??? Is it a low wall or high wall? Has this rifle had a barrel change?
In my opinion the .454 should have a 1 in 20" twist and that Browning is forcing you to shoot too hot to get the spin rate up with heavy boolits. (The Browning 45-70 1885 sporting rifle has a 1 in 20" and the BPCR has a 1 in 18".) The extractors are not that strong for high pressure loads. Do you get hard extraction with factory loads?
The Browning might shoot good with 300 to 250 gr bullets.
Are you SURE it is 1 in 26"?
The 1 in 12" sounds too fast but would shoot very heavy boolits but velocity will be slow for accuracy.
In either case you will not be able to use the same heavy boolit loads in your revolver and expect accuracy. Even the 1 in 24" rate of the Freedom does not do best with real heavy boolits.
You might get decent accuracy from the Browning and Freedom with the same loads if you stay at 300 gr bullets, maybe better if you go lighter.
You never said what weight boolit you are trying to shoot!

If you shoot the .460 round in the Ruger, the faster twist would work for heavy boolits. However you made it sound like you wanted one cartridge and load for both guns, the .454.
You have to give us all the information, boolit weight, load and whether you will shoot different cartridges in both guns.

Remember, the .460 was designed for 200 gr bullets. Nobody knows what the S&W gain twist amounts to. I don't know how Ruger came up with that twist, it sounds WAY too fast for light bullets. With real heavy boolits it will still need to be downloaded to whatever velocity the .454 case shoots best at in that gun.

drewhenrytnt, if you look at the twist rate of the Encore barrels in 460 Mag, I think they are either 1:18 or 1:20. They shoot a variety of bullets well.

The 500 Mag barrel is a 1:18 and it shoots heavy bullet very good.

Just remember the faster the bullet, the slower the twist rate.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Remember, the .460 was designed for 200 gr bullets. Nobody knows what the S&W gain twist amounts to. .

Sure they do here it is. Six grooves; 1:100- 1:20 gain twist.

I could not find it on the S&W site but it sounds just right.
Where did you find it?

My wish is for a 1 in 18" twist in a .44 SBH to play with.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I could not find it on the S&W site but it sounds just right.
Where did you find it?

When I bought the gun I found out what it was. But it is also posted here.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/h...odel460_200805/#cont

Ok guys here are the facts: BFR-Browning made the 1885 in 454 for one year and I fell in love with it. Don't know if it is a high-wall or a low-wall. How do you tell the difference? This rifle is bone stock, original octogon barrel. I just measured the twist again and I get 1:25.5

When I shoot 325gr@1350 in my model 83...in the 1885, they extract just fine. When I switch to any full power factory loads they all hang in the chamber. I have had such good luck with factorys that I don't currently reload. The factory loads that need to be encouraged with a wooden dowel are Win 260 or 300, Corbon 285, 320, 360, Buffalo Bore 360.

I have bore scoped the chamber and find nothing out of the ordinary. I have a 5 place electronic digital micrometer that shows virtually the same measurements for cases from the Freedom as from the Browning. I sent the rifle to Browning along with clearly marked shells of the ones that extracted and the ones that stuck. Got it back in 3 months, same problem. It is a beautiful rifle, and makes ragged holes at 175 yds(6x42Leupy). Unfortunately it takes a "ramrod" to eject! That sucks!!

I have not chronographed any loads through the Browning. Could I be exceeding pressure somehow?

Andy B

Sorry I'm late to the party......

Not really much to say that hasn't been said here already. I don't think either of those twist rates are optimal. The Browning is slow and the Ruger is fast......, but I would lean more towards the faster rate of the Ruger. I like Number 1s a lot and that would also come into play in my decision making........

Redhawk, I forgot that I value your oppinions as well.

My friends and I had a disagreement about how I calculated the twist in the 1885. Several of us have gotten together and measured and remeasured and one more time to be sure. The 1885 has a 1:23 as best we can measure.

I do not know if the 1885 is a highwall or a lowwall. I also do not know what the pressure limit is. I assume Browning would not have factory chambered 454 would it not be safe. I have seen Ruger #1s hold some ridiculous pressure and function flawlessly.

1885 in 454 is so rare I'll probably keep it and continue to search for a smith that knows the secret to extraction.

I'll be buying a #1 as soon as funds allow it. I wonder how those 400gr bullets in 454 will shoot in the #1!

Andy B

I would certainly hang on to the Browning! The extraction issue should be solvable by a good gunsmith. I've used 400 grainers in my .454 SRH and it has a 1:24 twist and it exhibited good accuracy up to about 25 yards, but out farther, not so good. Couldn't get enough speed to really stabilize the bullets. That number 1 shouldn't have that problem!

Andy, how hard is it to poke a fired case out when it sticks? If it just takes a light tap or push then the extractor is at fault. If it takes a lot of force, then the loads are too hot for the gun.

BFR,

All it takes is a little encouragement from the dowel. A light tap tap POP out it flies!

What gets me is when shooting "Colt" loads it functions flawlessly. One would think a manufacturer like Browning would be intimately familiar with the ctg they are chambering for and provide adequate extraction.

Andy B

Sounds like the case is just expanded enough and the extractor is jumping over the rim.
Mine is a 45-70 and the extractor is for a rimmed case. I don't know if you have a different shaped one. I will see if I can find something.

The extractor is not jumping over the rim. It will not push the ctg out of the chamber. I can take a picture of the extracter, but have not been able to post pictures.

Andy B

The weak extraction on the 1885 Browning isn't uncommon as its inherent in the design. BUT poplulation wise, the rifle themselves are. Finding a suitable smith w/actual experience on this type, might be difficult. That particular manufacturer tends to slow roll warranty work. Thet design was developed before the current high intensity calibers were even dreamed of. I recall the extraction disadvantage of the design was a consideration that ruger focused on when developing their No.1.

Sorry, but my longterm is starting to go too/ I just don't recall the fix/enhancement, but there's a G'Smith that hangs on the 24hr campfire G'SMith forum that I'm sure would know and probably have some experience w/the issue. He's in ID IIRC.

As for the tight twist on the ruger, I'm thinking its a typo. When Browning first brought out their SS ABolt in 260Rem, their web page said its twist was 1:16. I had already ordered one and it upset me. After calming down, I deduced that the webpage author was doing a cut/paste in building the specifications table (as thats what I do also) by using of another caliber and editing the essentials and overlooked this one change. I emailed them w/o response. Offered to rewrite the page myself for them ~ shamed them into fixing their page.

Point being, if Browning could make an editorial/typo error, Ruger can too.

That 1885 as well as its predecessor are beautiful piece of work ~ then again, there's the thot that one can use 45LC/454 Casull in the 460 chamber that may be appealing. Sigh! decisions, decisions . . . . glad its you and not me