I was planning on bringing my best .480 loads to the party as well!! It just might shock all of us!

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
I would love to do that. But let me ask you one question, if speed mean's nothing, why do you need the .475 Linebaugh, wouldn't the 480 Ruger be more than enough, or am I missing something here??????
If speed meant nothing the 44 Special would still be king of the hill, the 44 Mag made the 44 Special a wimp round, why, because of speed.

Speed increases penetration that is true. Speed does not increases penetration that is also true.
I witnessed the following at the Linebaugh Seminart in Jackson, Miss. last year the 500 Linebaugh at 1091 FPS penetration the exact same amount as my 50 Alaskan revolver at 1570 FPS and both were shooting the 525 grain WLFN load by Buffalo Bore. The 500 Linebaugh at 1091 FPS also out penetrated the 475 Linebaugh with a 420 Grain LFN at 1384 FPS. The 500 Linebaugh at 1253 FPS with a 450 Grain punch bullet out penetrated every other handgun round including the 50 Alaskan despite a 317 FPS advantage and a bullet 75 grains heavier in favor of the 50 Alaskan. Yes the 420 grain bullet at 1000 FPS fired from a 475 Linebaugh will be out penetrated by the same bullet at 1380 FPS, so yeas velocity can increase penetration, but not always...

The 480 Ruger properly loaded will take any game that the 475 Linebaugh takes with ease. I would not expect to find any terminal bifference between a 410 grain flat point at 1200 FPS out of a 480 and a 420 grain out of a 475 Linebaugh at 1380 FPS, both will penetrate plenty and both will leave a large wound channel

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
I would love to do that. But let me ask you one question, if speed mean's nothing, why do you need the .475 Linebaugh, wouldn't the 480 Ruger be more than enough, or am I missing something here??????

If speed meant nothing the 44 Special would still be king of the hill, the 44 Mag made the 44 Special a wimp round, why, because of speed.

Doe4s speed mean more penetration? Yes, No, Well sometimes yes and sometimes no, is the correct answer.. Example, the 475 Linebaugh shooting a 425 LFN at 850 to 1000 FPS will not out penetrate the same bullet at 1380 FPS.. Ok in this case more speed has equalled more penetration. Next example the 500 Linebaugh shooting a 525 grain WLFN at 1091 FPS penetrated 50" (at the Linbaugh seminar in Jackson, Miss. in 07), next up was my 50 Alaskan shooting the same bullet at 1570 FPS and it penetrated the same 50" despite a velcity advantaqge of 479FPS. Next the 500 Linebaugh shooting a 450 grain punch bullet pentrated 51" at 1253 FPS. You can clearly see that the faster 50 Alsakan lost the penetration contest to a slower round. The 475 Linebaugh 420 grain LFN penetrated 49" and was oput penetrated by the 500 Linebaugh at 1091 FPS.

A recent article by Clair Reese showed the results of a recent test completed by the Barnes ballistics Lab, where they set 2 24" long blocks of ballistics jelletin at 100 yards with a chronograph at the front and rear of the blocks. One block was shot with a 300 RUM and the other with a 30-06 both shooting 180 grain TSX bullets. The 300 RUM exited with 47 FPS remaining velocity, the 30-06 exited with 244 FPS of remaining velocity. This clearly shows that the 30-06 had enough velocity to remaining to outpenetrate the 300 RUM had the jellatin blocks been longer..
So the anwer is sometimes, maybe, not always....

If we look at history we will see that rounds were jacked up with speed to improve performance.22 LR 22 Mag, 38 special .357 Mag, 44 special, 44 Mag There is a reason for all of this, and I know you guys don't like to here it, but it also increases the energy. No one will ever convince me that energy is not important.

It is a combination of speed, bullet design and energy that makes a bullet as effective as it is.

jwp475 , I see what you are talking about with the 300 Rum and 30-06, but is that just one shot or did they do the test more then once. Because like you said, it is not always the same results.

I do not know if Barnes shot the Jellatin only once or not..

I do not dissagree at all that the 22 Mag is a better performer than a 22 LR. I also agree that a 357 Mag is higher on the ballistic food chain than a 38 Special. I also agree that a 44 Mag is also higher on the ballistic food chain than a 44 Special.
I would have bet money that my 50 Alaskan revolver was going to out pentrate every other handgun that day, but it didn't. Why I have an idea, but I may not be correct. All said and done I do not know why sometimes more speed means more penetration and sometimes it does not. Just because more speed does not pentrate more does not mean that it is less effective it only means that it penetrated less.

As to energy I agree that the wound caused by a 44 Mag is going to be greater than a wound caused by a 44 Special. It is a no brainer when useing 2 handguns of the same caliber. Where useing energy to predict the wounding abilty runs afoul is when it is used to predict the wounding ability of say a 30-06 and a 475 Linebaugh. The 30-06 has the most enrgy, but the 475 will leave a larger wound channel and penetrate deeper on a Moose or Buffalo even though it has less energy. This is only one rerason why energy is a poor way to rate efffectiveness..

jwp475, I agree 100%. There are a few factors, not just one over the other.

But I know we all agree, big hole's are the way to go. I am sure we all have our favorites.

You see, I knew that we could discuss this without slinging mud!! I still want to perform a penetration test, though.......just for sh%$ and giggles......... We all agree on much more than we disagree.

Correcting myself

I Posted 01 April 2008 10:43 that the 500 Smith had 11% more frontal area than the 454 Casull. I (to borrow a word) misspoke. I was thinking the 475 Linebaugh/480 Ruger comparison to the 500 S&W. If you compare the .454 to the 500, the difference is a 23% increase.

Sorry about that.

Remember, there is nothing quite like blunt force trauma WITH penetration.

Lost Sheep (Larry)

quote:

Originally posted by Lost Sheep:

Remember, there is nothing quite like blunt force trauma WITH penetration.

Lost Sheep (Larry)

Hey I like that line... I may want to steel it and use it myself if you don't mind...

I shoot a lot of fox around my chicken coop. I shot many with the .22 LR and there is a lot of blood and the fox usually drops or just goes a few feet.
Those shot with the .22 magnum can be lost, show less blood sign and just show less effect when hit. I am not convinced that the .22 mag is better. I have lost a lot of well hit fox with it and never lost one hit with the LR.
Goes to show energy is not the answer but bullet construction means more. The bullet in the mag, because it is a hollow point, does not penetrate enough because it blows up fast.
Much more energy then the .22 LR but it means NOTHING at all to the fox.
I have shot a lot of fox from my deer stand with big revolvers and they are slammed right to the ground without a wiggle.
So what is better? A large slow boolit or a fast little bullet that dumps it's energy in the animal?

Only fox I have ever shot was at 10' with a 200 partition in a 300 win mag. He was still held together by on inch of skin. Near complete seperation. I agree less is more.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I shoot a lot of fox around my chicken coop. I shot many with the .22 LR and there is a lot of blood and the fox usually drops or just goes a few feet.
Those shot with the .22 magnum can be lost, show less blood sign and just show less effect when hit. I am not convinced that the .22 mag is better. I have lost a lot of well hit fox with it and never lost one hit with the LR.
Goes to show energy is not the answer but bullet construction means more. The bullet in the mag, because it is a hollow point, does not penetrate enough because it blows up fast.
Much more energy then the .22 LR but it means NOTHING at all to the fox.
I have shot a lot of fox from my deer stand with big revolvers and they are slammed right to the ground without a wiggle.
So what is better? A large slow boolit or a fast little bullet that dumps it's energy in the animal?

Use a better bullet than them cheap hollow points and they will go down, I have killed a lot of fox and coyotes with a 22 Mag. Maybe it's the shooter...lol

I agree from my experience with the 22 Mag most if not all of the light wieght hollow points are very effective on game.. The best on game that I have used have been the 50 grain Federal and CCI hollow points and the old Winchester 40 grain hollow points...

The .22 mag is more effective because of the drastic increase in muzzle energy....... Don't shoot me, I'm just kidding!

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Lost Sheep:

Remember, there is nothing quite like blunt force trauma WITH penetration.

Lost Sheep (Larry)

Hey I like that line... I may want to steel it and use it myself if you don't mind...

Sure, feel free. But just don't try to use it without attribution in a speech if you are running for public office.

I think I may re-write it to "...quite like blunt force trauma AND penetration." It's still a work in progress.

The one I saw on another forum "With a telephone you can reach out and touch someone. With a 50 BMG you can REALLY slap-em down." was already taken.
Larry (Lost Sheep)

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
The .22 mag is more effective because of the drastic increase in muzzle energy....... Don't shoot me, I'm just kidding!

Like I said many times before, it is a combination of speed, bullet design and energy. All three play a role in how bullets kill. If your bullet design is not good or poorly constructed, the speed and energy are wasted.
It is not just a cut and dry subject, there is not just one answer on how bullets kill, that is why there is so many different opinions on it.

Couldn't agree with you more. But, I still think muzzle energy (especially with handgun rounds that produce very little to start with) is a poor way to measure performance. I will take a slow-moving .480 over a .454 every time, and on paper it looks like an underachiever.......

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Couldn't agree with you more. But, I still think muzzle energy (especially with handgun rounds that produce very little to start with) is a poor way to measure performance. I will take a slow-moving .480 over a .454 every time, and on paper it looks like an underachiever.......

Until one views the destruction of that in its path




And this damage was caused by a 45 caliber Hard Cast like one of these

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Couldn't agree with you more. But, I still think muzzle energy (especially with handgun rounds that produce very little to start with) is a poor way to measure performance. I will take a slow-moving .480 over a .454 every time, and on paper it looks like an underachiever.......

Just like I prefer my 500 Mag over my 460 or 454 Casull.

I like big holes...

you know, this debate has raged for a long long time. not sure why the 50 alaskan didn't penetrate more. unless one was running each round through a chrony it would seem to not show much, and on top of that, paper tests are certainly not the most scientific medium to be shooting into. there's soooo many examples of where a bigger round outperforms a smaller one, and then.....there's examples where higher velocity rounds have outperformed the larger lower velocity ones. none of which are anything remotely scientific.
there's many linebaugh seminar examples of where the now lowly casull outpenetrated a 500 linebaugh and so forth. if as much care was taken into finding the results of the "ultimate" round with the .44 mag at those seminars as is done with the bigger bores i'd bet it'd turn in a much much better showing.

454, 475, 480, or 44 mag, i'm really not sure there's gonna be much difference b/w any of them whatsoever as far as what happens at the terminal end of the shot. i've not seen it so in my hunting whatsoever.

quote:

not sure why the 50 alaskan didn't penetrate more. unless one was running each round through a chrony it would seem to not show much,

Velocity was measured not estimated





The 475, 500 JRH & Linebaugh as well as the 50 Alaskan all out pentrated a 410 grain round nose solid out of my 416 Rigby

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
454, 475, 480, or 44 mag, i'm really not sure there's gonna be much difference b/w any of them whatsoever as far as what happens at the terminal end of the shot. i've not seen it so in my hunting whatsoever.

The difference between a 454 properly loaded and a 44 mag is significant and the difference between the variuos 475s and a 44 mag is VERY significant....