How about medium weight for caliber???

Yes - the same as above. For example, I use 240 gr for .44 mag, 210 or 220 gr for .41 mag.

ManCannon,

How has your penetration been with the 300gr xtp? I have had bad experiences with the 250gr xtp in regards to penetrating the front shoulders on black tails.. I now shoot a 335gr wnfpgc @ 1200fps and have no penetration problems. I recovered a couple of 250 xtp's from front shoulder shot's, both expanded dramatically, but stopped on the shoulder blades. The shot's were appx. 30-35 yds..

I've had bad experiences with 240gr hollow points out of a 44mag. Once I switched over to 300gr XTP's and a 45 Colt, I've never recovered one bullet from any deer that I've shot, through and through has been the rule. I've also used 345gr hard cast on deer, but have found that most of the work the bullet performs is in making a large crater in the ground. I think the 300gr XTP balances the expansion versus penetration dilemma well...

I use the 250 gr Hornady XTP for deer in well reduced 454 loads (1350 -1400 fps).
Never had a problem , but I lung shoot them .
Never had a deer go more than 50'
Most only go 10' or less

Johnch

johnch,
I have had no problems on a straight thru lung shot, had same experience as you, tipping over in appx. 50'. In fact the 2 deer were shot there the second time. Both incidents occured on a quartering shot, deer facing me. Both deer dropped, but proceeded to get back up... My loads clocked at 1176 fps...

I'm a real fan of the heavy for caliber true Keith designs, or the LBT's. I go for the 250 gr in .430" and the 325 or 330 gr in .451" loads. Even driven at a sedate 900-1000 fps they penetrate well. (on deer/antelope)

IMHO hollow points have to "do something" to work properly (Expand). Where as all you need to do with the cast slugs is just hit the deer.

FN in MT

In my experience, cast bullets are not ideal for any thin-skinned game. The same goes for heavily-constructed jacketed bullets such as Hosler Partitions and Swift A Frames. I hunt North American game exclusively with a Freedom Arms M83 in .454 Casull and have seen more impressive results with Hornady XTP/Mag's on whitetail deer and caribou than with more heavily constructed (and expensive) bullets. When hunting pigs and bear, hard cast bullets are the ticket; elk and moose, I want a premium, heavy-for-caliber bullet; deer, caribou, and antelope, gimme an XTP baby!

I'm right there with you Jugger... I've used both on deer, and the most effective and impressive results have come from 300gr XTP's, hands down!!

Here's a look at the highly touted Hornady XTP. This is the .44 cal 300 gr. The bullet in the center was fired (with the grain) into an oak block at 25 yds. The HP clogged resulting in no expansion whatsoever, and penetration was about 13"

The pieces flanking were fired from 3' through 10 sandwhich size ziplock bags full of water and then stopped in 8" of wet sawdust. The jacket shed and the core shows "so so" expansion. In both cases, velocity was around 1100 fps. As far as I'm concerned, gimme a Nosler! (Or a HARD cast "Keith" style bullet)

FWIW,

Dennis

Years ago, Juggernaut76 and I fired various bullets from two .454 Casulls into an oak log about 1.5 feet in daimeter and about 3 feet long. The Hornady XTP/Mags penetrated about 9" and looked like advertisement-quality mushrooms. The Cast Performance 335 gr WLNGC's penetrated about 27" and looked as if they could be reloaded again. I'm not sure if this level of performance (CP 335's) is really ideal for deer and other thin-skinned game.

The biggest thing about a hard cast bullet is the meplat, as I see it. Large frontal area means the bullet will carry a lot of "slap" with it when it hits, and that typically means great systemic shock. Other than that, the main objective, as far as I am concerned, is sufficient damage for a quick, humane kill, and I want an animal to tell me where it went. Put the bullet where it is supposed to go, make sure it exits, and life is good.

From what I have seen out of jacketed handgun bullets, they have a pure lead core, which means they are too soft for predictable performance inside game. If the jacket fails, you are left with small secondary projectiles as the core fragments, each of which have very little energy to transfer, and typically no exit wound. This holds true with typical "cup and core" rifle bullets as well.

Give me my own hard cast bullets with a Keith-style front, let me drive them at sufficient velocity to ensure complete penetration, and I am happy.

I can't understand why some people get so hung up on expansion in bullets which start out at nearly one-half inch in diameter. This is what most rifle bullets are attempting to get to and some people just don't get it. Take a hard cast bullet of adequate weight for the caliber you are shooting, drive it somewhere between 1000 and 1200 fps and you won't be able to keep it in a thin-skinned animal. Then, you will have two holes in your game, which allows more blood loss and better blood trail just in case ya gotta follow up Bambi in the canes.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
I can't understand why some people get so hung up on expansion in bullets which start out at nearly one-half inch in diameter. This is what most rifle bullets are attempting to get to and some people just don't get it. Take a hard cast bullet of adequate weight for the caliber you are shooting, drive it somewhere between 1000 and 1200 fps and you won't be able to keep it in a thin-skinned animal. Then, you will have two holes in your game, which allows more blood loss and better blood trail just in case ya gotta follow up Bambi in the canes.

I agree totally nothing walks away from a good large flat point hard cast

Bullets are not necessarity designed to expand in order to cut a bigger wound channel, it's about transfering the bullet's energy to the impacted target.

First off,IMNSHO, this "energy dump" is a lot of crap. If you are shooting an animal with a load that can not penetrate completely on any shot presentation, you are either using too little gun or too little bullet. None, and I repeat none, of the 200+ whitetail I have killed died from "energy dump" or transfer or anything else one wishes to call it. They died from loss of blood resulting from a penetrating bullet or enough damage to the central nervous system to shut down bodily functions such as breathing. Same goes for the elk, mule deer, cows, African game, feral dogs, and other animals I have taken in the past.

In the case of varmints, one usually ovematches the bullet and velocity for the target with explosive results.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
First off,IMNSHO, this "energy dump" is a lot of crap. If you are shooting an animal with a load that can not penetrate completely on any shot presentation, you are either using too little gun or too little bullet. None, and I repeat none, of the 200+ whitetail I have killed died from "energy dump" or transfer or anything else one wishes to call it. They died from loss of blood resulting from a penetrating bullet or enough damage to the central nervous system to shut down bodily functions such as breathing. Same goes for the elk, mule deer, cows, African game, feral dogs, and other animals I have taken in the past.

In the case of varmints, one usually ovematches the bullet and velocity for the target with explosive results.

I totally agree energy dump and fpe are a lot of baloney when it comes to terminal performance.Energy is not what kills, take a 250 pound NFL football player that can run a 10 flat 100 yard dash, this equates to 30 feet per secound this figures to 3504 foot pounds of energy.If energy killed then the morgue would be full of fotball players after each game.Penetration and the destruction of vital organs and or central nervous system is what kills.

Penetration is the #1 reason I went to flat/wide nose cast bullets in my 45 colt for hunting. I found that hollow points did not penetrate to the vitals in every situation while I was hunting... Have yet to recover a hard cast wide/flat nose, yet have recovered hollow points....
When hunting, that animal is not going to stand there and present the "PERFECT" broadside opportunity for you to shoot. There are more often than not times where I have to take a hard raking quartering shot, and the wide flat nose get's the job done because it penetrates rather than flatten out and expend It's energy on a shoulder, That's a waste of energy, which destroyed no vital's because it did not penetrate... Energy does nothing except cripple the animal, unless it passes through the vital's or central nervous system...
Fatal destruction of the vital's and the central nervous system occur with penetration more so than the transfer of energy..

I go with the Kieth or LBTs for everything in my .44 Mag or .45 Colt handguns. I think the XTP is a fine bullet but I have never had any need for a jacketed bullet in the above calibers. The Keith is good and the LBT even better.

"dumping all the energy in the animal" is code for "blowing the meat all to hell" . when im hunting with hardcast i know that
:i will get though penatration
:the deer may go a way before dieing
:I will have a good blood trail to follow
:I won't loss a shoulder to bloodshot.