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Want to load the 10mm Auto (S&W 1006 5"barrel) for hunting and woods defense. Figure I will buy 180gr cast bullets for the woods defense (I want penetration, not expansion) and practice. The biggest critter I would ever come across would be a Mtn Lion (not hard to kill) or Black Bear. Are there better cast profiles for the semiauto (truncated, round nose, flat point, etc.) for feeding, straighter/deeper penetration, etc? Also am planning on using AA#9 and want to know if I can get significantly more vel if I use another powder. For hunting Doe Deer and Pronghorn, ranges will be 75yrds or less. Colorado requires that the bullet be expanding and produce 550ft#'s at 50yrds. It appears relatively easy to get there with 180's, and maybe 200's. I am a fan of lung shots and complete penetration for blood trail purposes (especially w/handguns). What do you recomend? Deke. | ||
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Were I to hunt deer with a 10mm I might try a 180 JHP, but for defense - where you may not have the time to pick your shots - I'd favor a 200 grain hardcast or fmj flatpoint @ 1200 fps. | |||
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I never hunted with one but we carried the S&W 1006 10mm as a duty gun for several years and shot a bunch of road damaged deer. The 180gr XTP bullet penetrated very well on everything up to and including Chevrolet Pickup trucks.  The Silvertip didn't seem to penetrate as well but really bang-flopped the deer and the 180gr Hydroshok (.40S&W type velocity) put deer down but was a yawner.We used some of the 200gr FMJ bullets @1,150fps for a while but I don't think they were a better penetrater than the 180gr XTP at 1,300fps. When we first got the guns factory ammo was scarce and we carried the fmj and then the XTP from a custom ammo loading company. The Silvertip became available and we moved to that and then to the Federal Hydroshok. hth | |||
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I would pick a 180-200 JHP over a hard cast bullet. I've shot 1 black near with the 10mm loaded with 180 Sierra JHP over a charge of AA-7. Shot it 3 times because I was excited. All bullets mushroom perfectly and were found underneath the hide on the other side. Lots of people seem to favor hard cast bullets but I have found modern JHP very effective for hunting. I think the cast bullet thing is carried over from the Keith days when there were not that many effective JHP's around. Now a days you will be hard press to find a police dept using non-expanding bullets. | |||
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police use hps for many reasons one of the biggest is there concerned with over penetrations. I wouldnt want to count on a hp making it through the shoulder bone of a black bear or hog. When hunting with my 610 its loaded with 200 grain hardcast turnucated nosed or round flats at about 1100fps. When hunting penetration is the name of the game. In my opinion hps have no place in the game field unless its varmits your hunting if you must use a jacketed bullet use a soft nosed non hp bullet But for the best combination of penetration and wound chanel a hard cast with a good flat metplat is the way to go. Loaded like this the 10mm is a good hunting gun. Ive taken deer and boar with my smith and have allways good good quick kills. | |||
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When you say XTP, do you mean the Barnes bullet which is now called the XPB? Deke. | |||
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Nope, the Hornady XTP. I'm sure there are better bullets, they're just what I've used for a long time. | |||
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The number one priority for an officer when he pulls the trigger is stopping the bad guy. Over penetration would probably not be even on his mind. Deke stated that he would only run into mountain lions and bears. No hogs. If I was shooting a 10mm, I would not go for a shoulder shot. A 44 mag and up, yes. A properly designed 180-200 gr JHP that gives ADEQUATE penetration will outperform a non expanding bullet due to the fact that it creates a larger wound channel. I do believe that the hard cast bullets have their places in hunting. It's when you need all the penetration that projectile can offer such as moose or brown bear. But for deer, mountain lions, and a 250 lb black bear, which are "man" size, a good JHP will shine. To each his own I guess. | |||
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and he said it was for protection and that means taking any shot available not a precisly placed shot and in that case im for penetration. A cast bullet at any anle is going to travel through alot of animal and reach the vitals under any circumstance. Ive shot enough animals with hardcast to know that the wound channel a properly designed cast bullet gives is just as dramatic as a hp. It may be a little narrower but its alot longer and actually does more damage. I doubt if your in a defense shot situation against any animal if its going to give you a perfect lung shot and what if that little cat ends up being a 400 lb black bear! Ill stick to what i know CAST BULLETS WORK. As far as them being a throw back to elmers days ill say this. More knowlegable handguners use them today then ever before and theres a good reason! Ive personally witnessed two failures of xtps one on a big bear and one on a hog. Both failed to penetrate on sholder shots and required tracking and being put down by a cast bullet. Both by the way were wounded by a .41 mag which is very simualar in ballistics to a 10mm. In both circumstances a cast bullet dropped the wounded animal where they stood and the hog was put down by a 41 special shooting a 210 at 900fps the bullet broke both shoulders and exited. Sure police use hps. They DO worry about overpentration as the last thing any police dept wants is to kill an inocent citizen. They also use there guns on humans and by and large a human is alot easier to put down and alot less likely to bite back wounded and for the most part alot easier to penetrate and for the most part police depts use guns that are underpowered for the job anyway ie. 9mms and 40 short and weak. Id like to ask a knowelgable police officer what hed rather a 9mm hp or a 10mm with a 200 cast doing 1200fps. Especially with the bad guys now wearing body armor and the occasional need to shoot through a car door. Police depts are controled in what they must use and most of the rules are made up by liberals that care more about whats politicaly correct then what works. Sorry for the ramble but thats my opionin and its one that comes from field experience and not from what ive read. To avoid any arguments thats all ill say about it. | |||
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heres another example http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=4353 | |||
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Lloyd, i don't lookof this as an argument. I look at it as a friendly discussion between two hunters. Heck if things were different, the two of us could be sitting across each other from a camp fire discussing the merits of your narrow point spear versus my wide point spear 10,000 years ago. I sincerely think that you are sticking to your choices because they have worked for you. In my case, I am only offering the opinion of my choice because the expanding bullets that have provided ADEQUATE penetrations have worked for me.1) And if I had to ask the question of which would work better, 9mm HP or 10mm cast, I would change that to 10mm HP versus 10mm cast. That would be more fair.2) In terms of self defense with problem bears, etc.. I don't think any one person has more experience than the Parks Service. They are fine with the 40 S&W loaded with JHP.3) Not all police departments are run by liberals. Yet not a single department that I am aware of that use a non-expanding bullets as regularly issued ammunition.And finally 3)I would rather face a problem bear(which I have, a Kodiak brown for that matter), charging hog, crazy deer than a coked up guy with a weapon in his hand. In that scenario I would pick the 10mm loaded with a good JHP over any cast 10mm loads. Good luck with your future hunting endeavors, Lloyd. | |||
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If you faced a brown bear with a .40 you must at least have some balls!! Id probably piss my pants with my .500 linebaugh in my hand!! I wasnt trying to argue either. Like you said everybody has an opinion based on what has worked and not worked for themselves. | |||
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I carry a Glock 29 with Silvertips. From the few, assorted vermin I've clubbed with them, I'm quite impressed. But the biggest thing I'd have to be worried about running into is a black bear. I wouldn't hesitate to stand my ground and duke it out with this combo. Oughta work real well on deer shot thru the ribs. Founder....the OTPG | |||
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I have really been looking seriously at getting a glock in 10mm, I figured I can get Home defense loads for the house, and then have fulll power 10mm rounds for hunting or whatever I feel like. Anyone have any suffestions on this combo? | |||
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Brent,, Hope you are soon back safe and sound,, I was a park service bear dude in Alaska for awile,,,on duty in uniform we carried 357s, I carried my ruger GP100 with Jacketed soft point ammo 170 grains I think???,,,NPS issued a 125 grain HP...Off duty and when I was out of uniform I carried my Glock 20, loaded with handloads that were very simular to the corbon penitrator rounds, I think they were 200 grains??? It's been a few years. Never felt underguned with 15 of them. But we were talking BIGGGGG Bears and Moose,,,ya know momma moose kill more people than bears! Now I'm in western NC and still carry the 20 but keep it full of the winchester silver tips. A couple of deer, one large hog, and a couple of real big dogs have all went down from good hits. For cougars and B bears and people,,,,more dangerous than the 4 legged varmits by far...the silvertip rocks,,,,One large pit bull took the bullet in the head, down the neck, through the body cavity, and a piece of something went out it's back leg. Location Western NC,,, via alot of other places, One wife Two kids Three Glocks and a couple cats. | |||
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If I planned to hunt with a 10mm that I would not need to conceal I'd be tempted to try the EAA Witness "Hunter" instead http://www.eaacorp.com/handguns-hunting-pistols-hunter-description.html Thank you for your service, Brent. Be well. | |||
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Brent, Wish you a safe return as well. I have bought a S&W1006 which if you are patient and time your bids well, you can get one in excellent condition for $450-$470 on gunsamerica/gunbroker/auctionarms, etc. I did alot of homework on this and feel that it was the best 10mm made that is a non-combat type sidearm. BTW, I consider the 1911 and Glock to be two of the best or the best combat sidearms ever made. However, since I don't need their quickness, the S&W is heavy duty, has a nice SA trigger, is stainless, and will hold its value and strength over time. No offense to PPosey, but the S&W is a better choice than the EAA. If you are going to hunt with this be aware that the 10mm is about the lightest that is legal to hunt with in Colorado. I have not hunted with a handgun yet, but my bro in law has killed many Deer with his 357 and one of my subcontractors has killed upwards of 30-40 big game ranging from Pronghorn to Elk with his handguns. Both have told me that the 357 does not kill them fast enough. With similar bullets, I think the 357 will penetrate as deep as the 10mm, but the 10mm will obviously create a bigger hole for bleeding, and BTW, I don't buy into any significant shock effect from a handgun since all but the new 460 are well below 2000fps. Especially with handguns its all about how big/deep of a permanent wound channel and where the wound is. Deke. | |||
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My S&W Model 1026 is a little heavy for all-day CCW, but it does get called upon for that use in the back-country. Unless it is being carried specifically for hunting, it is loaded with Silvertips--175 grainers at almost 1300 FPS seem pretty decisive to me, and in most environments the 2-legged predators are a lot more likely to "bite" than are their 4-legged counterparts. My hunting load is 200 grain RCBS TC castings at 1100 FPS. This is about a 10% reduction from max loading, and I shoot a LOT of these--so it saves wear and tear on the platform, but gives up little in terms of lethality. My ancestors put a lot of venison in the freezer for many years using a '73 Winchester in 44-40, which is a pretty close duplicator of the 10mm's ballistics. The RCBS TC's feed very well in my pistol. Fortuna favorat fortis | |||
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EAA,,, not meee I'm a Glock fan,,,,have several Location Western NC,,, via alot of other places, One wife Two kids Three Glocks and a couple cats. | |||
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Only problems with Glocks is the rifling (hexagonal) doesn't handle cast bullets well. (that and the feed ramp is unsurported) For $200 you can have Jardin (there are others I'm sure) send you a drop in barrel with conventional rifling that will shoot hard cast all day. Back to the original thread.. Round nose will feed the best, but a keith designed bullet with a wide, flat face will do the best on game. Truncated will probably feed well in Semi-auto and might be a good compromise. Would probably be a good idea to have the feed ramp polished as well unless your bullets are hardened. JHP's are good bullets for self defense, but with the exception of the Barnes (which technically is not a JHP, sorry for the faux pas), most will break apart at 10mm velocities when they touch bone of any sort. John | |||
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I have a Glock 20. I use Sierra 150 JHP's for home defense. For hunting, which is more for backup on hogs, I use the 200gr FMJ's from Hornady or the 200gr XTP. Over 13.0gr of No.9 they are very accurate and provide plenty of velocity. | |||
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I also have the 10mm Auto Glock 20. I don't reload and practice with the Remington 180 grain MC, a flat nosed jacked bullet @ 1124 fps. My other load is the 175 grain Winchester Silvertip HP @ 1174 fps. When carried for self-defense, I load the Silvertips and when working around horses or other large animals, I carry the Remington flat nose jacketed load as my primary load, with the other clip as reserve. They are slower than my Model 57 6" .41 Magnum, 175 grain Silvertip @ 1262 fps, but 16+15 is a lot more firepower in reserve than a 6 shot plus two speed loaders. I plan trying some of the custom loads like Buffalo Bore's 200 gr FMJ @ 1200 fps or the 180 grain Speer Uni Core JHP @ 1350 fps on a future pig or deer hunt respectively. | |||
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Hey what did you decide ???????? Location Western NC,,, via alot of other places, One wife Two kids Three Glocks and a couple cats. | |||
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The Hornday 180XTP's crony 1175fps in my 1006 and that will be my primary defense load. Thinking seriously about purchasing DoubleTapAmmo (I found the 180XTP's to be extremely manageable and very easy to fire off a quick doubletap which is no big surprize in a 40oz gun) in a 180GD for a hunting load and their 200Beartooth for a woods defense (Colorado does not allow a non-expanding bullet for big game  ). The DoubleTap tested velocities are reported to be 1331fps for the 180 and 1300fps for the 200(HOT, 35,350psi, which should be a very good guide for PRE that I hope to use to develop handloads). If the POI of the Doubletap180 is similar to the Hornady then they may backup the Hornady. In the woods I hope to use the 200Beartooth as the primary defense loads, but who knows, the recoil may be too much for a reliable double tap. I have zeroed in on 6.05gr/.57ccTitegroup in my Lee Turret w/Mangus180TC's @ 1150fps for practice and may purchase 200HC's loaded hot for practice if the 200Beartooth is carried in the woods. Alot to be determined yet, but off to a start.Deke. | |||
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