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HI, I think it is funny that it is not mentioned to oftened on this forum about the 500 LInebaugh or 500 max. I am getting one in Feb from MR. Clements and I do not see much about this round on the forum?. I know it is a hell of a round and if anyone has seen MR. Linebaugh test as far as penetration goes the 500 Linebaugh in a 495 grain bullet at 1200 fps penetrated better than any other handgun round? Thanks,kev | ||
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sounds good ,are you getting the 500linebaugh or the 500 linebaugh maximum?both are good rounds the max gets 150-200fps more velocity than the 500 linebaugh .probably dont see much here because the 475-500linebaugh are usually on the upper limits(recoil)for most shooters,i also wish there were more post on the big bore revolvers.if and when i can afford it i will get a 475 linebaugh maximum ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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I have a .500 and a .475 built by John and love them I have another .500 being built right now. I dont have any use for the max though. It doesnt penetrate any better is heavier and bigger and just doesnt look right to me. I dont see any gain in pushing these bullets more the 1300fps. The recoil past these speeds beats you up and most of the time penetration actually decreases. A good example was when my buddy used one of my 480 lfns in his .50 alaskan at about 1800fps. This bullet was cast out of 5050 wheelweight and lynotpye he shot a red stag at about 50 yards and whe found the bullet under the skin on the far side of the animal granted it broke both shoulders but the bullet was deformed (mushroomed) Im sure that if he would have dropped down about 500fps it would have exitted. But you will love that .500 there a ball to shoot and Dave does nice work | |||
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Congratulations! I have had two 500 Linebaugh revolvers and one 500 Maximum and I just sold my last 500. No more 500 for me. I have shot the 500 Maximum only a few times and I would not want to shoot it again ever. Of course, if you are a reloader, you can adjust the powder to load it down. That damn 348 Winchester case is big and it takes a lot of H110 to top it off. Recoil with a case full of H110 is something must be experienced to appreciate. I suspect that most 500 owners cannot even handle a full power 500 Linebaugh load, let alone a 500 Maximum load. | |||
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quote:You must have a better eye than me, Lloyd. The max frame is all of about two tenths of an inch longer than the standard frame, and unless the two are side-by-side, I have to look close to see the difference. As for weight, a Max might weigh all of 2 or 3 ounces more than a standard-frame gun with the same barrel. I'm having my first 500 built, and I picked the max. Not because I expect any increase in performance over the standard 500 -- I don't -- but becaue I can get that same performance with a shorter barrel (read lighter, handier gun) and at even lower pressure. | |||
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at the pressure used in the standard .500 (which are lower then most centerfire handguns)Wear on the gun is not a problem if kept oiled. The .500 works at alot less pressure then the .475 or .454. Im having my second .500 built a 4 5/8s vaquaro Now this is my idea of a packin .500. I guess my argument would be why does anyone need to push a .50cal 440 grain bullet any faster then 1300fps. This load will kill anything do it in a handier gun and for about half the price. Just my opinion and if I had the only one this would be a pretty boring forum quote: [ 01-04-2003, 23:37: Message edited by: Lloyd Smale ] | |||
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I have a Ruger maximum that I'd like to have made into the 475 Long. I almost sent it off to Clements, but the wife talked me out of it. I don't have the money now, I should have done it and lived with the consequenses. I was thinking to use the 475 long but load it to standard 475 velocities for lower pressure and longer gun life. I think I'd like it with a 6.5" bbl and bbl band front sight. I talked to Clements about making the cylinder and bbl in stainless, then putting a brushed chrome finish on the frame to match and make it more weather resistant. I've also been kicking around the idea of having an Express rear sight installed. That way you could have the fixed blade for 50yds and the other folding ones for 100 and 150. I think once I finish with Engineering school, I'll have it built. I have a BFR in 45-70 and it will easily push bullets faster, 405's to 1750 with no pressure signs, but it's rather large and not as handy to pack, point and shoot. | |||
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Lloyd, I'm not arguing with you at all on the performance issue. I won't be able to resist seeing just what the gun is capable of, but I don't have any plans to run 440-450 grain bullets any faster than 1300 fps on a day-to-day basis. As far as pressure goes, it's all relative. As I recall John suggests running the 500 around 35,000 psi, and says that should push a 450 gr. slug 1300 fps from a 7.5" barrel. If we use that as our benchmark, you're going to have to exceed that pressure by quite a bit to get back to that velocity in a 4 5/8" barrel. I should be able to to push 450's at 1300 from my 5" max while staying well under the 35,000 psi mark. Maybe that doesn't offer any real advantage, but it sure doesn't hurt. I'll be the first to admit, there's no practical reason for me to own a 500 max. There's also no practical reason for me to own a standard 500, or my 480 Ruger, or half of the other guns in the safe. And I'll bet you could say the same thing too. You have your 475's and 500's because you like them, not because you need them. You can bet there are plenty of 45 Colt and 454 shooters who see no purpose whatsoever for your 475's and 500's. I still don't buy into the idea that a max is bigger or heavier to any noticeable degree, but like you said, it's all a matter of opinion. In my case, the price difference is negligible. I already had the base gun (a birthday gift from my brother,) and did the Bisley parts conversion myself for $40. Clements is charging me basically the same money he would for doing the same work on a standard Bisley. Your 500 Vaquero sounds like a great gun; I'd love to handle and shoot it sometime. If you come to John's shoot in Cody this June, I should have the 500 Max there. We can do a side-by-side comparison. | |||
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I want a 500LB too! I bought my SS 44 Bisley Vaquero this summer in anticipation of it. Who do you guys each recomend I send it to for the work? My brother has a 475LB in a Super Redhawk and now another 475LB in an 4.5" bbl FA Alaskan Guide Series. The FA is very nice to shoot, the Ruger is NOT! We have shot 335s, 400s, 465s and 500gr bullets and the Linebaugh Long would be nice with the 500gr bullets especially. He killed a deer on Kodiak this fall and full penitration through the top of the heart, deer just ran off, not far but never killed it instantly or nothing. Should have used 400gr XTPs but he wanted it loaded for bear too with the hardcasts. The FA is so damn accurate too! The express sights on that thing are just titties and beer men. I'll get a 500 max someday. He's thinking about having Gary Reeder make him a 500 max with Reeders own frame and getting it done in Black Chrome with the cylinder, hammer and couple other things left SS and engraved with a grizzly on one side and a moose on the other side of the cylinder. | |||
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HI, The gun MR. Clements is making me is based on a ss bisley. I will get the 500Max as he calls it, 500 linebaugh.I like the maximum also, but thought I really did not need it, if I need more than a 500 L, I will carry a rifle.I will use it for a packing handgun, it will have a 5.5 inch barrel and a front post with a night dote on it, I want to see that front sight at all times. I will relocate to AK and will carry this gun all the time also MR. Clements is custom making me Micarta grips that will look a little aged for appearent.He will melt down all edges and will have bowen rear sights on it as well and a express barrel. Thanks,Kev | |||
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Kev, I believe Mr. Clements refers to the 500 Linebaugh as the 500 Magnum, not the 500 Max. It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to refer to the 1.4" case as "Max" when the 1.6" case already goes by that name. | |||
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Kev, The 500 Maximum (500 Linebaugh Long) cylinder will not fit in a Ruger frame other than an original 357 Maximum frame. Hence the Maximum probably. Reeder makes a Mid-Frame that uses all Ruger parts I believe to build the Maximum cartidges on, it has a thicker top strap too. The window has to be opened up for a larger cylinder so he makes it larger to begin with. The 475 or 500 Linebaugh is the longest one that can be used in the Blackhawk/Superblackhawk frames. The 500 Max is the longest for a fact. 500 Mag is not a cartridge that I'm aware of and is probably a loose term as Cannon says for the 500LB. What does Clements want to convert the Bisley to 500LB? Are the cylinders linebored in your frame as Linebaugh and Bowen do? Reeders are not, they're just assembled I'm told. [ 01-05-2003, 09:47: Message edited by: Brent Moffitt ] | |||
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Just as luck would have it I am going to the seminar in cody this year. I will have my .500 and my .475 along but the new vaquaro is still raw material in Johns safe right now. Im just hoping that he has the cosmetic upgrade done on my existing .500 by then Im having it reblued a bowen rear sight installed the frame case hardened and a set of beautiful french walnut grips installed by him and his son. This old gun is serial no. 100 so its an old workhorse thats been shot alot and is ready to be "beautified" Shoot me an email and well talk and maybe meet there Lloyd, I'm not arguing with you at all on the performance issue. I won't be able to resist seeing just what the gun is capable of, but I don't have any plans to run 440-450 grain bullets any faster than 1300 fps on a day-to-day basis. As far as pressure goes, it's all relative. As I recall John suggests running the 500 around 35,000 psi, and says that should push a 450 gr. slug 1300 fps from a 7.5" barrel. If we use that as our benchmark, you're going to have to exceed that pressure by quite a bit to get back to that velocity in a 4 5/8" barrel. I should be able to to push 450's at 1300 from my 5" max while staying well under the 35,000 psi mark. Maybe that doesn't offer any real advantage, but it sure doesn't hurt. I'll be the first to admit, there's no practical reason for me to own a 500 max. There's also no practical reason for me to own a standard 500, or my 480 Ruger, or half of the other guns in the safe. And I'll bet you could say the same thing too. You have your 475's and 500's because you like them, not because you need them. You can bet there are plenty of 45 Colt and 454 shooters who see no purpose whatsoever for your 475's and 500's. I still don't buy into the idea that a max is bigger or heavier to any noticeable degree, but like you said, it's all a matter of opinion. In my case, the price difference is negligible. I already had the base gun (a birthday gift from my brother,) and did the Bisley parts conversion myself for $40. Clements is charging me basically the same money he would for doing the same work on a standard Bisley. Your 500 Vaquero sounds like a great gun; I'd love to handle and shoot it sometime. If you come to John's shoot in Cody this June, I should have the 500 Max there. We can do a side-by-side comparison.[/QUOTE] | |||
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HI, Thanks for the correction, I am getting the 500 MAG not the MAX, like CANNON said the MAG is the 500 Linebaugh. MR. Clements makes the cylinder and they are linebored I beleive.I like what MR. Linebaugh test showed with a 495 grain WFN bullet at around 1200fps in a 5.5 barrel did.I beleive the test is talk about on hiss site, it penetrated more than other handgun rounds and even more than most rifles. Thanks,Kev | |||
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Kev, do you know what he gets for the conversion? Not many do the lineboring and it would be worth extra to me. Do you know what the wait time is also? Thanks again. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Brent, I believe all the details and standard priceing are here: http://www.clementscustomguns.com/ Clements custom guns | |||
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Thanks for the link. | |||
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Brent, I believe his turnaround on full-blown conversions is right around 6 or 7 months. | |||
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What kind of moron has a 480 ruger bored out to 475 linebaugh? That revolver is the most uncomfortable thing I have ever shot. Test drove one in a 454 casull with full hosu buffalo bore loads,sixrounds was all I needed to convince me I wantted nothing to do with this revolver. | |||
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glock20rocks, You can find a decent deal on one if you watch the auction sites for a couple of weeks. My brother found mine by posting at sixgunner that he was in the market. Within a matter of hours, someone posted that their local gunshop had one at a price better than I've seen on any of the auction sites. I believe there were only around 11,000 produced, so they're going to get tougher and tougher to find. | |||
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My smith has a 357 Max that my brother was going to get from him and have it converted to 500 Max but is having too much fun with his FA 475 right now. I don't know what they're worth but he may sell it to you if the price is right. I spent some time last night reading at Clements site and it sounds like I'll be calling him in the future. ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} Thanks | |||
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hey diesel d ,some people relize the 480-475linebaugh does not kick all that badly while others think the 44mag kicks too much ,different strokes for different folks ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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I got my Ruger Max at a gunshow. I've since seen 2 in gun shops and one more at a gun show. You just have to keep looking and hope you find one. I also have a United Sporting Arms IMSA 357max. This is a very smooth and well put together gun. I would bet they could build the Linebaugh Longs on this frame as well. Only it doesn't have the bisley grip. Maybe one could be fitted though? | |||
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Thanks guys, I'll keep my eyes peeled for one. I wouldn't mind a 500 Max just for fun. And yeah, the Ruger .454 is one heck of a hard-kicking cannon, ain't it? I think a single action would be much better on the recoil; the Ruger has zero muzzle flip and just slams straight back into you. An SA would at least roll, which would help with the recoil. The .454 was the first revolver I've ever shot; and I did it with full power loads. I fired it like a Desert Eagle; ie, I locked down one it like it was an auto...opps. Knocked me back about 3 feet...while I was cursing and yelling about how much it hurt, I still had a big-ol smile on my face...and hurried up and did it 5 more times Then I figured out how to shoot the thing right! | ||
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475/480, The ruger redhawk IS NOT designed for the 454 casull cartridge,let alone a 475 linebaugh! A properly designed Linebaugh,ie,freedom arms or a custom bisley is a joy to shoot in large calibers,a Ruger redhawk is not! | |||
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HI, DIESEL DUDE, I am getting the 500 MAG on a ss Bisley, but I see you mention about how the recoil is harder on a redhawk. What about a super red hawk, I think the recoil will again be much worst than a Bisley, but I would like a double action in a 500 Mag. I have a super in 44 would love to get it converted to a 500 Mag and have it along with my 500 Mag Bisley. Thanks,Kev | |||
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It seems to me Mr. Kev did not know what he was getting. I guess that he just wanted anything from Dave with word 500 in the caliber. However, you cannot go wrong with Dave Clements's work, as he is a top notch sixgunner's smith. Good luck. | |||
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Kev, The Bisley handles heavy recoil much better than the redhawk! I have only had a 44magnum in the redhawk,it was ok with top 44 loads. I had to Bisleys one in 45 Colt and one in 44 magnum iether of them with heavy loads were very manageable. I was out at the range one afternoon,an older gentleman let me shoot his 475 linebaugh,it was a Linebaugh custom on a Bisley frame,handled nicely,shot even better,I was pleasanlty surprised at the recoil,not bad at all! Check out Bowen Classic arms for their big bore conversoins on redhawks. Happy shooting! | |||
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diesel_dude, I agree about the recoil of the Ruger .454-it's a beast, and by far the hardest kicking handgun I've ever shot. Still fun, at least in limited quanties I've never shot an SA .454, so really have no basis for a comparison, but assume it would feel like there is less recoil. Padded grips would help a bunch too. The way I shoot it now is to bend my arm a bit, bringing the gun a tad closer to my body, and lock the upper part of my arm. Since the gun recoils straight back, with my arm being at an angle like that it natuarlly kicks it into the air a bit (for me, about a 45 degree muzzle rise). It takes ALOT of the sting out, but not all of it by any means! The .454 reduced loads or the new PMC 300gr JSP's (~1200fps) are still quite powerful and actually very fun to shot in that gun. The reduced .454's are 250gr @ ~1200fps, which is .44 Magnum level. I could sit there all day and shot those things..very fun! Still haven't tried the PMC's yet... If Ruger would make a factory SA .454 or .475...they'd sell a butt-load of 'em...maybe if we got everyone here to e-mail 'em | ||
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Here's the scoop on the Super Redhawk in 475LB. My brother and I were out shooting it and the FA 475LB right after he got the FA. He had the chambers opened up on the Super quite a while back now and we've shot it alot all with hot loads and every wt bullet out there damn near. The Ruger shoots well and is easy to open the 480 up so it's definatly an option. Recoil is straight back into the web, very uncomfortable as even compared to my 454 Taurus which is much nicer to shoot, not as accurate though. We shot 80 rounds of 400gr hardcasts the day I mentioned all the same load. We started out with the FA. I watched my bro as he had first dibbs. the pistol roared almost over his left shoulder. The Ruger recoils tward the rt shoulder, which he was expecting and it almost centered him in the forehead as he kept his head left. I was still a little aprehensive, the 4.5" bbl an all, but I was up. I shot it one hand to keep the damn thing away from my face farther. My Vaquero rolls better one handed so I was use to the feel. I let her go and the recoil was much more powerfull than the 44 but easily manageable with the FA grip. After 5 rounds I wanted one, BAD! After 80 rds, when we were all done he had me shoot the Ruger SRH with the same load. I fired it only three times and I put the damn thing down, f*ck that I think my words were! The difference is very remarkable! The Ruger SRH is downright painfull, the FA is downright a pleasure! I imagine the Bisley to be just as nice as the FA, probably better. Happy shootin... Just wanted to add, the 400gr bullets loaded hot are the worst of the bunch for recoil. It must be the perfect mix of velocity and weight or something. 500gr bullets were not that bad, 335s either... The ultimate insanity, 500 max on a SRH! If it would fit... it won't.[ 01-08-2003, 13:39: Message edited by: Brent Moffitt ] | |||
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Id be a little carfull with this one none of the gunsmiths I know including bowen clemments or linebaugh will touch a 6 shot ruger .475 conversion theyll only do them on 5 shot cyl. quote: | |||
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obviously its just me ,but i have a srh454,srh480,fa475,w/full power loads the fa 475 kicks staight back the srh roll up,both the srh have leupold 2x scopes,but there is no comparison.i will say the sbh 45lc ss/4-5/8" with full power loads roll up ,imo. | |||
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HI, MINGO, I beg to differ, I know just what I was getting, as I look into this a great deal. The only thing I screwed up was that I mix up the Mag with the Max. I said I ment to say Mag as that is what MR. Clements calls his 500 Linebaugh and not Max,the MAX of course is longer than the MAG or called the 500 Linebaugh,I just got them mix up.I am only human and make mistakes, but I will get a SS Bisley converted to a 500 MAG not MAX. I will have it around Feb as that is about 6 months since I sent my gun to MR. Clements. And from all I have heard MR. Clements work is top of the line.Thanks,Kev | |||
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HI, One more thing, I know that the grip of a Bisley or FA design hands recoil much better than a redhawk or super redhawk or blackhawk.I just wanted to see who might have shot either and have an idea of there opinion.I for one have never had much of a problem with recoil with either a handgun or a rifle that is just me.I understand that the Bisley or FA with roll instead of coming straight back into ones hand and have talk to MR. Clements a great deal about this topic. Thanks,Kev | |||
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Kev, HI, One more thing, I know that the grip of a Bisley or FA design hands recoil much better than a redhawk or super redhawk or blackhawk.I just wanted to see who might have shot either and have an idea of there opinion.I for one have never had much of a problem with recoil with either a handgun or a rifle that is just me.I understand that the Bisley or FA with roll instead of coming straight back into ones hand and have talk to MR. Clements a great deal about this topic. Thanks,Kev[/QUOTE] I have a FA and my best friend has a Ruger Bisley. I can tell you after tried hot and mild loads in both guns that the Bisley roll up more in my hands than the FA, the design of both grip is a little bit different. I don't tell the my FA don't roll up in my hands!!! The recoil is a very subjective subject, that depends on your experience in shooting other big bore handguns, your physical limits,... But you don't need to shoot all the time full loads in any calibers. For plinking you can find a mild "heavy" load. This load will give you perfect penetration for hunting, good accuracy and not pain in your hands. In resume the best advice is to have shooting gloves like uncle's Mike or similar and find you best own load. I can't be more clear. ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| <glock20rocks> |
Either way the FA/Bisley grip works ALOT better for handling heavy recoil than the Super Redhawk design. I like firing my .454, but can only run about 1 box of ammo through it at a sitting. Having carpel tunnel doesn't help much either ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} | ||
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Loyd, when you say a slower bullet will penetrate better, is that because at the higher velocities they are fragmenting too much? I don't quite follow. Just curious. | |||
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Lloyd, You have a point there about the SRH 6 shot cylinder. I will say that the Ruger is a TSB! He was working up loads with 400's a while back and the cases had to be driven out with a large punch and a sledge! One can possibly say two things about why: - the psi was high, way high... but it handled it. - the psi was high, and the chambers stretched a bit letting the brass get a little larger too, leaving them tighter than they normally would have been. I guarantee you, if a Ruger SRH would blow the cylinder, my brother would have made it happen with the 475LB by now. How many of you guys put 150-200 rds of ONLY hot loaded ammo through your 475LB 2-3 times a week for several months straight? I wouldn't hesitate to open up a 480 in the least. They operate at the same psi anyway. If you don't think Ruger anticipated and prepared for people pushing the edge with this case, I'd say wrong. From what I gathered from Clements's comments, he won't do the Redhawk in 475LB (5 shot)purely based on RECOIL being too much, which I disagree with. Someone wants a 475, let them have it. He'll build a 500LB in one. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} [ 01-09-2003, 00:19: Message edited by: Brent Moffitt ] | |||
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Slower, heavier bullets will often out penetrate a faster lighter bullet due to several factors but it is most easily explained with hydraulics. A bullet has a splash effect as it hits pulpy/liquid objects such as animals. The faster you drive it the more it "splashes". This is not necessarily good (especially if you want to eat it). Big bore handgun slugs are "pre-expanded" and don't really need to expand to be successful. A .452-.512 diameter bullet is big enough already. When you drive that wide heavy slug at moderate velocities, say 950-1300 fps, you WILL get penetration that often exceeds express rifles. In some ways, what you have here is the old Keith vs. O'Connor saga...or put a better way, Keith vs. Weatherby...big bore bullet design & weight vs. small bore velocity. An extremely simplified illustration follows...it is easier to penetrate water with your fist slowly than it is by slapping the water with all of your strength. I will be the first to admit that hydraulics is a very complicated subject that I have a hard time understanding but the effect remains true. As for the Bisley vs. FA grip designs, I actually prefer the Bisley over the FA when I had a Bisley .500 and a FA .475 at the same time. The recoil of the 475 also had distinctly different properties than the recoil of the 500. I much preferred the .500 loaded heavy vs. the .475 loaded heavy. | |||
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