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One of Us |
from your hunting revolver... Solid rest, Single Action, with iron sights 50 yards...big game animal...call it deer and pig size 3 inches, 4 inches, 5 inches? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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One of Us |
Depends on what I'm hunting. For deer-size game I figure I've exceeded the limits of the pistol/ammo/shooter combination at whatever range I can no longer place every shot inside a 6 inch circle. OTOH, a 22 that won't shoot into an inch or so will not be of much use for small game but it can still serve as a sub-caliber low-cost trainer. | |||
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One of Us |
I expect 2", no more at 25 yds. I don't think this is much to ask, from a revolver. | |||
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new member |
spitting soda..... so damn true. | |||
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Moderator |
1-inch at 50 yards or thereabouts. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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One of Us |
With iron sights, on a pistol? Your eyes are better than mine. | |||
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One of Us |
Marco, If you can hold 1 inch with irons on a revolver...you da man. I was thinking 2" at 25 and less than 5" @ 50 My first post should have been clearer that I was assuming 50 yards Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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one of us |
I expect 3" at 50 yards from a from a hunting handgun with iron sights and a solid rest. 50 yards is my personal limit for shooting at game with an iron sighted handgun and I feel a 3" group from a good supported position on the range allows me a reasonable margin of error in the field. | |||
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Moderator |
I wear corrective lenses...... I practice a lot with my big bangers. This is also a case of good load development and practice, practice, practice. You did say off a solid rest, did you not?? "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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One of Us |
I did indeed...that is just impressive shooting... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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One of Us |
I'm very happy shooting four inch groups at fifty yards under hunting conditions. That's using a steady stick or a tree limb for a rest. | |||
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one of us |
I guess it is not too important on deer size animals under 50 yards. But if you are using sticks or a rest, it is not good enough because when the shot comes where you shoot off hand, add the large group to your wiggle and maybe a flinch, then you cut effective distance to 20 yards fast. I use an Ultra Dot now and it is harder to get small groups with then open sights because it covers so much of a paper target. But with the proper loads it is still easy for me to shoot 1" at 50 yards from Creemore position with open sights because it moves the sights farther from my eyes, I can't see the dumb things from sandbags. It is so easy to make a good revolver shoot there is no excuse to accept large groups. Accuracy has always been the better killer of game then velocity. We have reached a point in loading that I don't like much over 1" at 100 yards, that allows Whitworth and I to hold 6" groups off hand at that distance. Here is an example of our groups. This is a sight in target shot at 50 yards with the red dot and my BFR 45-70. First group was 5/8" and the last was 5/16". It shoots the same with open sights and has done an inch and under at 100. The .475 BFR and Whitworths .475 SRH does this and has done under 1" at 100. Even my old Ruger SBH will do 1-1/4" at 100. If we remove the red dots, it is easy to shoot pop cans at 100 from a rest. | |||
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one of us |
Someone asked me how much run out I had on my loads so I told him it was BAAAD, wrote it on the target and sent him a picture! | |||
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One of Us |
That's how I go about it too and what I practice for at the range and from the deerstand. In actual hunting my iron sights handgun shots have been even closer than that. As for the greater distances, I really enjoy range shooting at 50 and 100 with iron sights, but I feel compelled to limit shots on deer to the 25 yds. The exception is when the scoped 629 goes along on the hunt. This is all assuming there's that "solid rest" and that can be real hard to find in the woods. If there's no rest or even a seated position, then we revert to standing off-hand...and that's a different ballgame. | |||
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one of us |
How about my old SBH? group at 50 and I shot the can at 100 but was hitting low, 3 in 1-1/4". I aimed higher for the last shot and almost centered the can. I got tired of walking down to set it back up so I quit. None of our loads are wimps either, This one is doing better then 1400 fps. Notice we shoot cast boolits too. | |||
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one of us |
With iron sights at 50 yards, 2" is fine for me. I only use bags to make sure I am sighted in correctly, though. From there I practice sitting positions that will be my norm when hunting. With the scope and my 41, it is under an inch from a sitting position with elbows resting on the inside of my knees. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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one of us |
2" is fine at 50 for hunting but when you start to talk 5" it is time to get to work. That will be OVER 10" at 100, now add wiggle factor to that and maybe a lousy trigger. What we do has little reflection on the shooter because fellows that come to shoot do as good or very close with our guns. Heck, none of us can shoot good every day. All I want to show is that finding what the gun likes and getting the best load for it can make all of you much better and will increase your effective range and confidence. I want everyone to appreciate how great a revolver can really be. Whitworth and I are not bragging about being better shooters but are trying to show that you should not be happy with mediocre loads because your revolver CAN do better then ANY of us can shoot the darn thing. I have not solved all the accuracy problems and never will but any good revolver can out shoot a lot of deer rifles. I do not like to hear "I can't do it" or it is "just a revolver and is only good for 25 yards". We are no better then any of you, we just made the gun do what it is supposed to do. I have only one secret! NEVER be satisfied and push on to more accuracy. The best thing you can do for yourself is never shoot at 25 yards, you are wasting time and money. Yeah, go ahead and look at me cross eyed! | |||
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Moderator |
I'd say 2-3" at 50 from a rest with irons. I know if I have the right gun and practice I should be able to drop that to 1", but not all guns shoot that well, and I sure don't if I haven't done alot of practice. I got spoiled with a good revolver and a scope to see what is physically possible, actually I still don't think I shot as well as that gun was capable of. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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Moderator |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by larrys: I only use bags to make sure I am sighted in correctly, though. From there I practice sitting positions that will be my norm when hunting. QUOTE] You and me both, Larry. I actually do a lot of practice offhand. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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One of Us |
Moderator...please delete this post as I am now embarrassed by my shooting abilities or should I say lack there of... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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One of Us |
I know what you mean. I'm wishing now I'd have said 1/4" at 25 yds. instead of 2". Frankly, I used to feel like a pretty damn good shot with my pistol. Thanks a lot Marko and Bfr Forgot to add that five extra grains for friends and forums. | |||
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one of us |
Don't feel bad, it might be just your loads and what you do at the loading bench, not you or the gun. I have gone into the loading and boolit part until I can't see straight, on every site. I get tons of resistance and REALLY hate to repeat over and over what to do. Stop, sit and think about what your boolit is doing INSIDE your gun before it leaves the muzzle. Research this site and Cast Boolits and you can read all I have posted. I want to help so all can get the best. Never, ever give up. You can do it too if you just throw the gun rags away and do your own work. | |||
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One of Us |
BFR, I am a reasonable shot. I qualified Master for several years. I was pistol instructor for 10 years at the SO. I just know my limitations. I might with a lot of work be able to get 3.5 inches at 50 yards...might I say...with a lot of practice. Eyes and time to practice are my too biggest issues. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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one of us |
Mike, you can shoot so you can see what I am saying. You have trigger control. If you shoot from a rest it does not matter if you shoot all the time or once a month, you never forget. Off hand needs a lot of practice. But if the gun and load is not up to what you can do, it is a lost cause because you will never will the boolit into the center. True that some will never get rid of a flinch or other bad habit. I also flinch once in a while off hand even though recoil does not bother me. I have to fight with every shot. Everyone does unless you shoot those cowboy loads that recoil like a .22. Then some flinch with those too. One of the worst reasons for missing is when you can't hold still and the gun is waving around so you try to make the gun go off as it passes through the target. Shooting long range or small groups is different then fast shooting at close range or clanging steel at spitting distance. I can't shoot fast and hit anything anymore because that takes thousands of rounds a week. Yeah, I used to break every bottle thrown as hard as I could with my right hand, grab the pistol out of my left hand and shoot. I also shot pheasants out of the air with a recurve bow. I could put a pellet through the hole in a washer tossed into the air. Had to prove it by putting tape over the hole. But you are talking different things and to do trick shooting means you NEVER stop shooting. A few days off and you start all over again. Not so shooting a gun from a rest, you can relax. So to shoot good, the gun must do it first of all. You still can't will the boolit to hit the center. You have to make it go there long before you shoot it. | |||
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one of us |
John came to shoot an original Smith carbine from the civil war today. A lot of fun and a very accurate gun. I set a sour cream container up at 200 yards to aim at with my .475 BFR with the Ultra Dot but could barely see the thing because it was dark and raining a little. I shot three and gave up, no idea what I was looking at. However, the three shots were still in 3-7/8". Do I giggle when someone says 5" at 50 yards??? Yeah, I do! | |||
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One of Us |
I shoot 1/4" groups at 100 yards with my iron sighted revolver!!!!!! Just Kidding!!!!!!!!! If I can consistently shoot 4" groups at 50 yards with my iron sighted shooters I am happy for the amount of time I spend practicing. I'm not into the handgun hunting that much. At 25 yards I'm striving for 2" groups off of sandbags to get the sights adjusted for my big caliber shooters. With .22's I would like to see under 2" consistently at 25 yards from bags. With pocket mouse guns I think 4" groups at 15 yards is acceptable but then try to hold myself to hitting a 12" circle when I throw the mouse gun at the target. | |||
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