I've used a hard cast 250 gr SWC in the 44 magnum for many years.Has anyone here done any "actual"penetration test comparisons between the medium weight (240-250) and the heavy weight bullets(300+)?If so,can you give specifics?Thanks!

ray

Ray, I plan on performing a test like this very soon. I will test the 250 grain "Keith" load against the 320 grain WFN loads that I currently use in my .44s.

Will also be testing some popular Casull loads against the .400 grain WFN loads I use in my .454.

Standby for results......

Whitworth,

Thanks!!!...I look forward to hearing about it.

regards,
ray

I should probably add that I use S&W revolvers and so,loads which are only advised for the rugers wouldn't be of much use to me.

Thanks again.

Ray, all of my .44s are Smiths. Just the big guns are Rugers. I won't part with my M29s!

I've shot a few Mule deer with the 240-250gr cast SWC's and have had excellant penitration. Only been able to recover one bullet. That was from a medium size Buck that was shot from head-on and the bullet was recovered near the tail. All others have been complete pass thru's and been lost in the dirt. Deer were always DRT and hardly took a step.
Sorry, never shot the Heavier 300-310 gr. bullets. Never felt like I needed them.

Shooter, how fast were you driving those 240 & 250 grain bullets?

I'm going to be testing in a few weeks. Will keep you posted.

quote:

Originally posted by ray m:
I've used a hard cast 250 gr SWC in the 44 magnum for many years.Has anyone here done any "actual"penetration test comparisons between the medium weight (240-250) and the heavy weight bullets(300+)?If so,can you give specifics?Thanks!

ray

See http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/index.htm
http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

I really appreciate the responses.

The beartooth and linebaugh charts raise more questions than they answer,in my view.

For example:the beartooth chart shows a slight increase in penetration with the heavier bullet (but both are being driven at the same velocity).

With rifles,I've always been inclined to go with heavy for caliber bullets but so far I'm unconvinced about the perceived advantage of the heavy weights in moderate velocity pistol loads.When all else is equal,the 250 gr bullet will be driven much faster than the 300 gr bullet will be and assuming it is hard cast,it may overcome (or nearly so)the advantage of the heavier bullet,by virtue of that higher velocity.

Unless I missed something,the linebaugh chart only assumes 1200 FPS with the Keith bullet.What will it do at 1400 FPS?

If you will look at this year's chart for the Linebaugh seminar, you will find that nearly 500 fps extra doesn't buy you a thing but extra recoil, noise and abuse.

In practical applications, 250 to 300 grain hard cast bullets are going perform very similar and on game such as whitetail, will make very little difference except on the really tough shots (i.e. through the hindquarter).

quote:

Originally posted by ray m:
I really appreciate the responses.

The beartooth and linebaugh charts raise more questions than they answer,in my view.

For example: the beartooth chart shows a slight increase in penetration with the heavier bullet (but both are being driven at the same velocity).

With rifles, I've always been inclined to go with heavy for caliber bullets but so far I'm unconvinced about the perceived advantage of the heavy weights in moderate velocity pistol loads. When all else is equal, the 250 gr bullet will be driven much faster than the 300 gr bullet will be and assuming it is hard cast, it may overcome (or nearly so) the advantage of the heavier bullet, by virtue of that higher velocity.

Unless I missed something, the linebaugh chart only assumes 1200 FPS with the Keith bullet. What will it do at 1400 FPS?

More info here: http://www.customsixguns.com/writings.htm
The point is what happens at distance; 50 and 100 yds. Light fast bullets are rapidly loosing velocity at longer distance, while heavier ones, especially at lower velocities, are loosing velocity at much slower rate. The bottom line is that at 100 yds faster bullet is approaching heavier one in term of velocity, while it doesn’t have advantage of grater weight.

Another interesting thread where James Gates is elaborating virtues of hot loaded 357; http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=4645&highlight=james+gates .

Here is the reason why I believe that 41 magnum is probably best balanced of all calibers:

Considering that James is shooting 6†S&W 686, 185 gr LBT at 1400 fps, and is enough to cleanly kill even large hogs at shorter distances, for the same barrel length and approx. weight, we can have 41 magnum. What is the top end for 357, it’s easy task for 41. In other words, same energy results with less pressure, muzzle blast, recoil and wear and tear of gun, brass, and easier on shooter’s hands; important factor if somebody has medical condition preventing him or her from shooting heavy recoiling handgun. Also, with less recoil and muzzle blast, follow up shot is easier, faster and with better accuracy. Just my humble opinion…

When someone tells me that a 45/70 with a solid will outpenetrate a more powerful caliber using a solid by virtue of it's lower velocity,that person has forever lost any degree of credibility in my view.

People with serious African experience consider Garret to be a complete joke.He is either a moron or a liar with an agenda and that agenda,I suspect is to capitalize on the popularity of the 45/70.

Men with experience with large African game find Garret's assertions to be completely absurd and so do I.

I presume you are talking about the Beartooth information as I don't recall us shooting .45-70s at any of John's seminars I attended or hosted.

Garrett may have an agenda, but you still have to comply to the "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" law of physics. Depending on the type of solid one is using, some of that extra velocity and force may just go to deforming the bullet and thus one may lose some of the potential penetration of the bullet.

ray m,I attended the Linebaugh seminar in Jackson,Miss. this year and I brouhgt my 416 Rigby along with some 410 grain Federal loaded round nose solids... I was still recovering from shoulder surgery,so I asked MSHitman to shoot it into the penetration box,I thought that the 416 Rigby would out penetrate every thing around,because of it's great African reputation.. Long story short the 416 penetrated (round nose solid) 46" the 475 Linenebaugh 420 grain hard cast penetrated 49" the 500 Linebaugh 525 grain Hard cast penetrated 50" and the 500 JRH 425 hard cast also pentrated 50"............

Even tho the 416 Rigby had OVER a 1000 FPS more velocity it did not pentrate the fartherest....
Also my 5o Alaskan revolver was fired into the same media with a 525 grain hard cast and over 500 FPS faster the the same bullet in the 500 Linebaugh and it penetrated 50"
So more velocity does not always means more pentration..........
I have also had disscusions with some of the African hunters that are adament that more velocity means more pentration and have found that they have no experience with the slower rounds as compared to the faster ones to acctualy know they are only speculating.........

Otto Candice from New Orleans a man that has taken MANY Elephants with rifle as well as handguns used a Steel tipped hard cast of his design in the 500 Linebaugh and stateds that he got 2 feet of penetration in
Elephant heads.....

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
ray m,I attended the Linebaugh seminar in Jackson,Miss. this year and I brouhgt my 416 Rigby along with some 410 grain Federal loaded round nose solids... I was still recovering from shoulder surgery,so I asked MSHitman to shoot it into the penetration box,I thought that the 416 Rigby would out penetrate every thing around,because of it's great African reputation.. Long story short the 416 penetrated (round nose solid) 46" the 475 Linenebaugh 420 grain hard cast penetrated 49" the 500 Linebaugh 525 grain Hard cast penetrated 50" and the 500 JRH 425 hard cast also pentrated 50"............

Even tho the 416 Rigby had OVER a 1000 FPS more velocity it did not pentrate the fartherest....
Also my 5o Alaskan revolver was fired into the same media with a 525 grain hard cast and over 500 FPS faster the the same bullet in the 500 Linebaugh and it penetrated 50"
So more velocity does not always means more pentration..........
I have also had disscusions with some of the African hunters that are adament that more velocity means more pentration and have found that they have no experience with the slower rounds as compared to the faster ones to acctualy know they are only speculating.........

Otto Candice from New Orleans a man that has taken MANY Elephants with rifle as well as handguns used a Steel tipped hard cast of his design in the 500 Linebaugh and stateds that he got 2 feet of penetration in
Elephant heads.....

I think there is some validity to this, that slower heavy bullets outpenetrate faster lighter ones. But until you fire bullets of the exact same shape a design into identical media while only varying velocity and weight can you make broad assumptions about penetration. Just my thoughts.

I agree that there are many variables to the equation...Notice that the 500 JRH 425 grain at nearly the same FPS penetrated one inch farther than the 475's 420 grain bullet despite the greater SD of the 475 bullet..
There are no hard and fast conclusions that can be made from the results,but thet are very interesting and do not agree with conventional wisdom

Let's compare apples with apples.

Take a well built solid (one that will not deform)of whatever size and weight you care to use for an example.

Just for the hell of it,let's make it a 46 caliber of 600 grains in weight.

The faster you drive that bullet,the deeper it will penetrate...period!!!!

To say otherwise is to be absolutely ridiculous.To refute that not only completely ignores large African game experience,it also runs totally contrary to the laws of physics.

No amount of psychobabble nor spin will change it.

quote:

Originally posted by ray m:
Let's compare apples with apples.

Take a well built solid (one that will not deform)of whatever size and weight you care to use for an example.

Just for the hell of it,let's make it a 46 caliber of 600 grains in weight.

The faster you drive that bullet,the deeper it will penetrate...period!!!!

To say otherwise is to be absolutely ridiculous.To refute that not only completely ignores large African game experience,it also runs totally contrary to the laws of physics.

No amount of psychobabble nor spin will change it.

And you have proven this how?

PS.The 416 Rigby solid did not deform....

I can't believe you're serious.This has been demonstrated time after time after time.

I said APPLES VS APPLES.You're comparing different projectiles.

How was it proven and who proved it???

Where have you been????....This is so completely ridiculous,I won't even dignify it.For years,I've been hearing about the Garret 45/70 loonies and now I understand,for the first time,the very depth of the lunacy.

You people truly live in your own universe.Keep sipping your koolaid.

quote:

Originally posted by ray m:
Where have you been????....This is so completely ridiculous,I won't even dignify it.For years,I've been hearing about the Garret 45/70 loonies and now I understand,for the first time,the very depth of the lunacy.

You people truly live in your own universe.Keep sipping your koolaid.

No proof just a blow hard that has to be right because he believes it to be so and since it is not,you start the blow hard personal attacks.. At least I have shot bullets into medium and they do not always act in a predictable fashion of coures you wouldn't know this because apparently you have not......
Since you do not want to discuss this on the merits why even bother to respond......

I would just as soon argue with a five year old.

quote:

Originally posted by ray m:
I would just as soon argue with a five year old.

No dought.....A more equal playing field...Not so over matched in mental capacity


OPPs the beer is for the adults........

This doesn't have to turn ito a pissing contest!

There are two schools of thought going on here. I subscribe to both to a certain level. Allow me to explain. A handgun cartridge will never achieve spectacular velocity -- it just won't, and when the attempts to jack speeds up for whatever purposes (like bragging rights in the case of the 500 S&W), they still fall WAY short compared to more traditional rifle cartridges. An example is the Smith 500. Big, huge case requiring a really big revolver to chamber it in, in order for Smith & Wesson to be able to claim a whopping 2500 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. Whoopdedoo. Any .416 will double that. Herein lies the rub. We shouldn't look at muzzle energy as the determinent of effectiveness in pistols because they just don't produce the velocity necessary to produce a lot of muzzle energy. I've heard guys on this site claim that the Casull is a more powerful and thereby more effective round than let's say the .480 Ruger because they produce 500 more ft-lbs of muzzle energy. Hell, a Casull with a 300 grain bullet can easily produce more muzzle energy than even the mighty .475 Linebaugh. Does that mean it's more powerful? Not only no, but hell no! Bigger, heavier bullet trump velocity in a handgun. That's not a dig at the .500 Smith, so don't read it that way. The way to get the velocity challenged handgun cartridges to penetrate is with heavy bullets.

The trick is the get as much penetration as possible. Big diameter bullets make big holes (this is my argument against expanding bullets in big-bore revolvers), and driven at moderate (read:revolver) velocities, WFN hard cast bullets penetrate really well. But, they would come apart at rifle speeds.

Now, rifles by virtue of their longer barrels, etc., produce a hellofalot more velocity and muzzle energy relative to their caliber (and other factors that you already know about). African dangerous game hunters have much data to cite about what works and what doesn't with regards to penetration. The reason the Weatherby's have had (in the past) such a lousy reputation (aside from the horendous recoil!) is that the bullets back in the earlier days weren't of the quality construction they are now, resulting in many cases of bullet failure. On the other end of the spectrum the .458 win mag in it's early loadings (and poor powder quality of its day) was criticized for poor penetration. Why, because the velocity often times was not high enough. It is generally accepted by PHs and experienced African hunters alike that the faster you drive them, the farther they penetrate -- assuming your bullet holds together. That is why they generally accept velocities between 2100 and 2400 fps to be optimal. Good premium bullets will generally hold together at these velocities.

Sorry so long winded, but I buy into both theories, because of the different dynamics going on here. There are factors in both tyes of weapons forcing different ways of measuring them.

That said, would I want a 45/70 Guidegun loaded with Garret hammerhead ammo staring down a pissed off wounded cape buffalo? Nope I'll take my .450 Acley loaded with 550 grain Woodleighs!

Let's discuss, not insult, gents!

I just realized how long-winded that last post of mine was! Sorry!

I'm always amused at people who come on the forum; ask a question then argue if the answer doesn't suit them. raym, you appear to be the expert in this discussion. Have you accumulated vast experience in Africa on large game? Have you even been to Africa?

Are you a physicist, or an engineer, or a scientist? Have you performed any of these tests for yourself? Or are you just regurgitating the vast wealth of knowledge you aquired from your reading?

Based on your posts, I'd tend to doubt you have the time in on testing, much less getting your arms bloody to the elbows. If you can't participate in this discussion fully without resorting to the insults, you're not welcome here, hear?

jwp, better behave or I'll turn my five year old loose on you.

M Shitman,

I left this thread because I find no value in having a discussion with an idiot.....You followed me to another thread to heckle me....You honestly think that I owe you a resume?I would have to respect you first.

I wish to have absolutely no contact of any kind with you EVER....I will avoid you for the same reason that I avoid skunks.

Ray im not going to get into a pissing match with you. Ive done testing myself ALOT OF TESTING and have been to two linebaugh seminars and have observed many differnt guns being used and wether you want to beleive it or not and good 44 mag heavy load will outpenetrate a good many powerful rifles. The major problem with your theroy is bullet construction. ANY bullet the deforms in ANY WAY will slow penetration down drasticaly. Lead is only so strong and once you get it over the velocity level that it is capable of it will either deform or fracture. Same goes for a solid out of a big game gun. Another thing is most solids out of big game guns are round nosed bullets. Made that way so they relibably feed which is very imprortant in a bolt gun. Round nosed bullets are about the poorest design made when it comes to penetration. They will NOT track straight through an animal. The ONLY bullet ive seen that seems to do better in penetration with more velocity is Kelly Shleps punch bullets. Which are basicaly a lfn design made of solid brass. These bullets will outpenetrate ANYTHING. You can spout off about mathimatical equations and ftlbs of energy and momentum all you want but in reality these are the facts. my 44 mags and 45 colts will beat out my 458 using 500 grain round nose solids in penetration testing all day long and my linebaughs will eat it for lunch. As to a hard cast handgun being a viable weapon to hunt with in Africa. I think to comment on that you have had to have done it not listen to the bs spouted by every so called expert you read on the internet. I know its been done enough times that i would have to say its viable and from what ive seen in penetration testing youd be better off testing some of the rifle loads that are preached as being effective because a good many of them fall flat on there faces. I only preach what ive seen with my own eyes not what somebody else has spouted on the internet. Ive shot 4 buffalo now 2 with a 500 linebaugh 1 with a 475 linebaugh and one with a 44 mag all using cast loads and none over 1200 fps and ive yet to recover a bullet from a shot at any angle. Granted there not cape buffalo or elephant but if a bullet will give penetration like that on an animal the size of a buffalo im pretty dammed sure it will reach the vitals of any animal that walks on the face of this earth and if you think your big rifle is going to blow a elephant off his feet your living in a dream land. You kill an animal like that by putting a hole through somethng vital and draining the blood out of him or by shutting down the brain. These big animals dont die easy. Ive seen buffalo shot that contiued eating as if they werent even hurt till they dropped over dead. I would think that a buffalo or elephant would even be harder to shock into attention. I too have met Otto Candice a man who has probably shot as many elephants as any man alive today and Id tell you to ask someone like him how effective cast handgun bullets at 1200 fps are. Or at least before you start claiming to be an expert at penetration and kiling power of guns to go out and do some of your own testing. Im about sure it would open up your eyes!!

Loyyd,you are correct,once a person has been to a few seminars and acctaully sees with thier own eyes,it is hard to believe.. I have a 450 Watts and a 416 Rigby and I beieved that these big rifles would penetrate better than they actaully did when tested.... Most in thie disscusion seem to believe that because the big rifles penetrated less,then they are less effective,not so.The added speed adds to the increased size of the wound channel and they penetrate enough,The Hard Cast bullets will degrade badly in heavy and also limit penetration..The punch bullet will not degrade in heavy bone.... Otto Candice used a Steel tip Hard Cast of his own design to get around this problem,before the advent of the punch bullets..

Okay, time to stir the pot a bit -

Let me qualify my commentary first with the fact that I am a big-bore handgun owner and hunter. The challenge of hunting with a handgun has always appealed to me. That said, do you think that it is possible that wet newspaper testing favors a certain type of bullet? I imagine that a flat point anything will do better in a medium like wet newspaper than a round nose.

At Linebaugh's seminars, has anyone taken let's say a .460 Weatherby (chosen for case capacity), loaded it incrementally from a high of 2700 fps on down to 45/70 velocities with a tough flat-nosed monolithic solid -- maybe even a Punch bullet? That should give a good indicator as to the effects of velocity on penetration. Also, I don't think wet newsprint is the best possible indicator -- yes, all things being equal, the same medium used for different calibers and loads will give you some form of measurement, but I cannot help but feel that wet newsprint favors certain bullet types. So, it seems the testing is a bit biased.

Again, no reason to get pissed off or upset, just debating the theories we have put on the table.

Thoughts?

Whitworth,no one should get upset when disscussing the issue at hand by bring up valied points...And you bring up a valid point and to my knowledge that has not been done, althoug I have not seen all of the data from every seminar... I agree that the penetratino in wet news paper is not the same as in game...But I have shot a 525 grain Flat point Hard cast at 1100 FPS with complete penetration (bullet exited) on a big Bison
This one....



I have never said and will not say that the lower velocity rounds are more effective,I believe that the added velocity of the rifles produces a larger wound channel as well as a more vissable effect on the animal when hit................ When testing bullets on a ranch in Texas Jack shot a Large beefalo that was running straight at him with the 450 #2 and knock it down the animal got up and one more ended it..The first round did not strike a major bone..I do not believe that a handgun round (no matter how much penetration) would have knocked him off of his feet with the same shot placement..At least I have never seen it or heard of it.............

Guys,

raym has said his piece and let's not confuse him with the facts. I've yet to see where he's based any of his argument in reality or fact; but he's got to live his own life however bizarre.

I will say though, that based on his tirades; I'll keep him away from my five-year-old for his own sake.

Yes, it's best just to avoid him. He the quintessential armchair quarterback with every answer -- and likely has never been on the playing field. His tirades remind me of a former AR member who got the boot because he'd start a thread, and then, if you didn't kiss up and agree with him, he'd launch the verbal assaults with name calling and foul language.

So what I'd like to know: If he professes to know all of these answers, why in the world would he start the thread looking for information...

Bobby, you just described a whole bunch of former AR members!

first jwp thats a very nice buffalo you shot there!! Second i never once said that the handguns because they penetrated better were better killers of animals. Theres no doubt in my life that if faced with a charging cape buffalo id much rather have a 458 then a 475 or 500. But in the same aspect i sure wouldnt feel undergunned any more then a guy can be faced wtih a charging animal with any gun using a lever gun in 4570 shooting heavy cast flat point bullets. A marlin will easily push a 405 to 2000 fps and thats potent medicine and if the senerio is changed from charging to hunting id feel just as comfortable with my 500. Theres no doubt in my mind that a properly alloyed cast lfn or swc out of one will penetrate at any reasonable angle and reach the vitals and thats what it takes to kill an animal. You can put 10000 fps of energy into a big animal and they will walk away if you dont hit something vital. Put a bullet in the heart of lungs or brain of any animal and its dead. It may not know it for a few seconds but it aint going to live to eat tommarow.

I have been watching this for a while and could not comment because I don't know the reason why a powerful rifle will not penetrate as far as some revolver loads. Given some thought though, has anyone considered the massive pressure or hydaulic wave generated in front of the bullet might just slow it faster? In other words, is the fast bullet compressing everything in front of it, where the slow boolit is just cutting more?
I feel it is like the first planes that tried to break the sound barrier, it was like running into a wall.

Let me get this straight. Maybe I misunderstood from the bickering.

Are some of you claiming that an undeformable solid(lets use Diamond for instance)of a given size and shape will penetrate more at a slower speed in a given medium than at a higher speed in the same medium?

If so, that defies what I learned in Engineering School and what I've witnessed in experiments.

Please clarify.

Thanks,

Reloader

/

No that's not exactly what we are saying... What we are sayin is that (for instance at the Linebaugh seminar in Jackson,Miss. this year)..I brought my 416 Rigby and we fired a 410 Fedral Factory loaded round nose solid into the wet pack and it pentrated 46 inches.. The 475 Linebaugh with a 420 grain flat point hard castbullet at 1382 fps penetrated 49 inches..The 500 Linebaugh with a 450 grain punch bullet at 1253 fps pentrated 51 inches....A 500 Linebaugh with a 525 grain bullet at 1091 fps pentrated 50 inches...As you can see in these tests the fastest was not allways the deepest penertator...In all fairness the 410 grain round nosed solid tumbled as did all of the round nose solids fired even the ones fired from handguns...On the flip side all of the flat point bullets pentrated striaght......
What we are saying is what we have acctaully seen................. And in no way is anyone saying that a rifle does not have an advantage in performance because they clearly do........

I agree that a big rifle can't be surpassed and penetration tests don't mean a thing, only the animal shot is proof of what works best. I am happy to get two holes and it doesn't matter to me how much farther the boolit would have gone.
I have, however, always wondered why the really big game rifles always use a round nose when all of us revolver shooters know the flat nose can go deeper and straighter. Would not the big bore rifle benefit from a flat nose that would track straight to an elephant's brain or straight through a buff's shoulders?
I would like to see the test done with the .416 and solid flat nose bullets.
I only hunt deer, so I am asking those that know more about it.
We all agree that the bullet shape and construction is the limiting factor for penetration.