Hey Guys,
Well I was unsure if I should post this, But i feel it would make a good disscussion and somthing to make the person this happen too think, Well NY deer season has been open for the last couple weeks and we have had very warm temps but my cousin and his grandfather were up and it was his first time out hunting this year. He is 15 and was with his grandfather who hunts with a ruger 44 carbine, 240 grain american eagle ammo( my opinion the ammo is crap)

Saturday early afternoon he had a good size doe 30 yards away, makes a great shot behind the shoulder. Now in my opinion this deer should have been dead on the spot art this range. Though after a night of tracking and then coming back in the mornning starting again finding good lung blood which then lead too nothing at all. We never did find the deer covered over a mile of ground. There was only blood from the one side of the deer so it was not a pass thru shot. So the bullet either broke up and because of bone or ended up in the offside shoulder.

I personally shoot the same gun with speer 270 deep curls over 21 grains of 300 mp and at 1800 fps that deer would have not moved,even though it is a pistol caliber, the bullet means everthing which we all know .

I plan on printing this post and sharing it with his grandfather so maybe it will change his ways and this can be avoided next time. so please share your opinins, your thoughts it will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

Matt

I do not consider myself an expert but do not believe in hollow points for hunting big game.
Not nearly enough penetration....Hornady XTPs might be an exception but I prefer hard cast lead, with a large metplat.

quote:

Originally posted by billinthewild:
I do not consider myself an expert but do not believe in hollow points for hunting big game.
Not nearly enough penetration....Hornady XTPs might be an exception but I prefer hard cast lead, with a large metplat.

+ 1

I agree completely.

well, shooting a bullet designed for a pistol at a higher speed out of a rifle is destined for failure at some point, i wouldn't run a hardcast fast out of a rifle anyway, that's asking for trouble as well.

people either have a choice, shoot premium bullets or pay better attention to the velocity range they're designed for and do not stray. i remember a penetration test i read about with .44 mag hardcast ammo, from a highly reputed maker, very hot stuff and arguably the hottest 44 mag round on the market, and shot out of a pistol it penetrated great, out of a rifle it either broke apart or didn't penetrate well at all. this means the velocity from the rifle just took the bullet out of it's effective velocity range.


imho playing with cheap HP or soft point ammo is just asking for trouble.

hey guys

Thank you for the the posts, I did forget to mention that the ruger carbine cannot shoot hard cast bullets due to the gas system. If it could it would be a viable choice.

Matt

My first centerfire rifle was a Ruger 44 Mag Deerstalker.

I killed a whole bunch of deer with it over the years.
All with 240gr jacketed bullets.
Factory ammo:
I used the Winchester Hollow Soft Point.
Remington 240 SP, and 240 SJHP.
Federal 240 HP.
With reloads I used the Remington bullets, the Sierra HP bullet, and the Speer SP bullet.
All my shots were less than 125 yards or so.

I never had any problems, all shots were pass throughs, no deer ran very far, many were DRT.
It was one of the most effective deer rifles I have ever used.

Premium bullets should make up for higher carbine loads , 225 Barnes, 270 Speer, 280 Swift A-frame.
Since you never found the deer it's hard to say what happened. A deer can survive a lung hit and other hits .Rare but it does happen.

I would like to make a few points. 1) Ultimately you never found out where you hit the deer. 2) You do not know whether it was or was not a pass-through or even just blunt lung trauma. 3) You traveled a mile; the deer might have traveled substantially shorter (like yards) or farther.
I am sorry for the family’s loss. Hunt enough and this happens.

Any bullet, especially a HP one can fail if its outside its design parameters. Shoot them too fast & they over expand & you lose penetration, shoot them too slow & you get more penetration but the design fails because the velocity is too slow to make them work.
Hollow points can be wonderful bullets but it takes some experimenting to get them there, even then they have one more way to fail, that is if the distance is too short or too long.
So, you need the correct alloy, at the correct speed......at the correct distance.
Those folks who poo-poo cast bullets just can't understand how something so simple can be so effective, one word.......its in the NOSE!
That flatnose is a bone crushing, heart/lung collapsing, full length penetrating piece of magic. As always, if you get 2 things, shot placement & penetration then you've just hit a homerun, velocity is fourth on the importance scale!
The disbelievers are those that haven't done it, but they've talked about it a lot! Oh yes, #3 on the scale is expansion, if you get some you're ahead of the game, but the first 2 are paramount, trust me.
Forgot, I'm not new here, just haven't been able to log in under Sixshot for some reason.

Dick

I wondered who that sixshot_01 impersonator of sixshot was, Dick.

I think Matts question is what is your opinion of the 240 grain jhp as a Whitetail bullet, and if you did not reload, what jacketed bullet would you use?

If you do not reload and are using one fo the 44 Mag rifles, and want a toupher bullet than the standard 240gr loads there are a few good ones out there.

My Niece killed a pig with my Wincheser 44 Mag with a Winchester 250gr Nosler Partition.
I have shot some pigs in the hea with the Speer 270gr factory load. That load is very accurate in my rifle as well.
Federal has the 280 Swift A Frame, and the 300gr Cast Core.
The 300gr Cast core shoots good in mt Winchester rifle as well, I would not shoot lead bullets in the Ruger, as they might fould the cas piston system.

Also Buffalo Bore and Cor Bon has some good heavy jacketed bullets as well.

While the American Eagle ammo may or may not be crap; a 240 grain JHP is certainly up to the task for whitetail deer.

My Son has shot many Deer with my Marlin 94 44mag and 240 Gr.XTP`s.Most of the time they take both shoulders out.Never lost one.

I know that John Taffin has 24, one shot kills on Texas whitetails using Black Hills 240 gr HP's, they must be working pretty good.

Dick

I've used XTPs, Remington SJHP, Sierra JHC with excellent results.

A 240 JHP no good for deer? God help us. How do I give my dead deer back?

Yeah, deer aren't particularly hard to kill and if you can't get it done with a 240 grain hollow point, you might want to take up another hobby, like needlepoint, or basket weaving, or gardening.......

Matt, just a secondary comment: I somehow doubt Grandfather cares much about an Internet post! Heaven knows how many times I've tried to change my dad that way and failed. He's 70 now and couldn't give a rats turd one bit anymore what some 42 year old whippersnapper thinks!

rnovi.. i agree somtimes you cant teach an old dog new tricks but i failed to mention this is not the first time this has happened. And i hate tracking a deer when i could be hunting.
I understand hollow points should do the job, but thats in a perfect world.
whitworth, deer are not that hard to kill,( unless does weigh 180 + pounds) but we dont plan for the easy kill you plan for the worse possable senario. This is why i started this post, I dont claim I am an expert but i pride myself in trying to set myself up so if that bad shot does happen i am confident my set up will do the job.

This post was not about my cousins grandfather but the fact my cousin lost his first deer because of a poor bullet construction, and the choice to use a cheap bullet. Could it have worked yes, has it in the past yes, but I personally want a bullet to perform under any condition, not just picture perfect.

I apoligize for the the long winded post but this topic was headed in a direction which I was not aiming for.

Thanks
Matt

Look, I rarely use hollow-points. The calibers I normally hunt with come pre-expanded in that they are of a large diameter. I too believe one should plan for the worst case scenario at all times. I pick my loads for each caliber accordingly. That said, they are still rather thinly constructed.

seasons44 I don't think the ammo that was chosen is crap,but maybe used outside it's peramiters,works fine out of my bisley.Like others have said with out recovery there is alot of room for speculation.I loaded some for my father in law for his deer stalker 265gr hornady flat point.This is the bullet they load the 444 with so it easily stands up to what the 44 dishes out.They've taken several deer and a cow all with just one shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Seasons44:
rnovi.. i agree somtimes you cant teach an old dog new tricks but i failed to mention this is not the first time this has happened. And i hate tracking a deer when i could be hunting.
I understand hollow points should do the job, but thats in a perfect world.
whitworth, deer are not that hard to kill,( unless does weigh 180 + pounds) but we dont plan for the easy kill you plan for the worse possable senario. This is why i started this post, I dont claim I am an expert but i pride myself in trying to set myself up so if that bad shot does happen i am confident my set up will do the job.

This post was not about my cousins grandfather but the fact my cousin lost his first deer because of a poor bullet construction, and the choice to use a cheap bullet. Could it have worked yes, has it in the past yes, but I personally want a bullet to perform under any condition, not just picture perfect.

I apoligize for the the long winded post but this topic was headed in a direction which I was not aiming for.

Thanks
Matt

Just what direction were you planning on this thread to go? Grampa was probably getting by fairly well before you showed up to straighten him out; if he's not listening to you, what makes you think a bunch of guys on an internet forum are going to hold any sway.

If you are so tired of tracking when you could be hunting, and Gramps has been losing deer due to a "poor" ammo choice; pony up some money and get him a couple of boxes of better ammo. Just think of it as an investment in preserving your hunting time.

quote:

Originally posted by Seasons44:
This post was not about my cousins grandfather but the fact my cousin lost his first deer because of a poor bullet construction, and the choice to use a cheap bullet.

I don’t believe that at all. You do not have a dead deer to show where you hit it and what kind of terminal damage it received, yet you have the answers? Amazing.

SmallFry, I will not this turn into a debate, but from what i wittnessed from the blood trail and the type of blood it was i can draw the conclusion it was lung blood, the deer dragging its leg leads me to belive it was a shoulder shot. Its observations, and an opinion.

Matt

Hey Guys
I wanna thank you all for your thoughts and comments this was not meant to start any controversey, I repect the wealth of knowlege which is shared through out this forum.

MS Hitman I am working on getting him some diffrent ammo, we'll see what he says,lol. Cottonsatlk i think you said it best, the ammo may not be crap but used outside its intended use.

Thanks again

Matt

No "controversy" here, the HP didn't fail, the shot failed.

I use HPs, both jacketed and cast, in revolvers and rifles shooting revolver cartridges and have done so for many years and many deer with complete success. The problem I see in this situation is the "behind the shoulder shot". In reality that is a poor shot. It will only hit the rear lobes of the lungs if the shot is good or if too far back it is a gut shot deer. In either case the deer most often will go a long ways before laying down to die.

Better to take out one or both hsoulders/legs shooting for the heart and thick part of the lungs that is low between the legs next to the brisket. A bullet through there and the deer will not go far if at all.

Larry Gibson

This discussion brings to mind the PO Ackley books.Always testing bullets and cartridges they did careful autopsies .One big deer they got had evedence of being hit twice in the past in the lungs yet had survived both hits.If you don't find the deer you'll never know.

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
My Son has shot many Deer with my Marlin 94 44mag and 240 Gr.XTP`s.Most of the time they take both shoulders out.Never lost one.

My experience also! If you want more thump you could step up to the 300 grain xtp, but not really needed.

Some good replies and some claiming a poor shot placement. Not so, a hollow point can fail with the best shot if out of the parameters for that bullet.
I am sure the man knows where he shot the deer but shooting a revolver bullet from a rifle is wrong. The bullet needs to be tougher and have controlled expansion at those velocities.
Even a hard cast shot too fast can fail.
All 240 gr bullets are not equal.