Ask the guy in the story linked below as to the terminal stopping power of the 40 S&W on a smallish blackie.

http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/7795684p-7709118c.html

As I said, if those were my only two choices that is what I would choose.

But I don't just have the .45 ACP to choose from, my Ruger Super Redhawk in .44 mag would work much better. But really guy's I don't know of anyone myself that can draw and fire on a charging griz which moves 100 ft in 3 seconds. The best bear defense gun is a 12 ga or 10 ga shotgun loaded with proper rounds.

But my many years of going into the wilderness on horseback here in Montana, I have yet to encounter a problem bear. I'm actually more afraid of Mountian Lions and here is a picture to show you why......


Click On Image To Enlarge

Didn't sound like stopping power at all. The little bear bled out. A griz would have half a man in his belly before dying, if he ever dies. Might just get mean and become a killer.

I am still waiting on NBHunter and Gentleman Jack to share thier sucess stories with us on Grizz useing the 45 ACP

You seem to be talking enough for the rest of us. I knew I shouldn't have bothered stepping into this topic with so many profesionals. Good bye.

quote:

Originally posted by NBHunter:
You seem to be talking enough for the rest of us. I knew I shouldn't have bothered stepping into this topic with so many profesionals. Good bye.

NO,please give us your experience with the 45 acp on grizz.and of course your test and or experience with the 45 acp and the SXT's ability to penetrate adequately insuch an encounter.
I am sure that you must have experience in this area to make such a recomendation

quote:

Originally posted by NBHunter:
I knew I shouldn't have bothered stepping into this topic with so many profesionals. Good bye.

When you say Profesionals,do you mean some one with actuall experience,shooting one with a handgun??

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
I am still waiting on NBHunter and Gentleman Jack to share thier sucess stories with us on Grizz useing the 45 ACP

How about experience with the 45 acp on any type of game??
How did it perform??

quote:

Originally posted by Gentleman Jack:

Of course others will answer with their god like knowledge and totally miss your original question of .45 or .40.

If some one asked,which is the best to pull a 40 foot fifth wheel with,a Toyota Tocoma,or an F-150?? Would you recomend either simply because those were the only two asked about??

Right! The answer is NEITHER. Sort of like asking if a 2" pocket knife would kill a griz better then a 1" knife.

bfrshooter, I wonder why our two 45 acp users on Grizz have not replied and shared thier experiences with us.I am quite interested in hearing about thier sucsses's aren't you?

Here ya go



Carry the right medicine for the job or you'll be needing some mayo to go wit that there pea shooter and doing this

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
bfrshooter, I wonder why our two 45 acp users on Grizz have not replied and shared thier experiences with us.I am quite interested in hearing about thier sucsses's aren't you?

Because we have jobs and cannot lurk on this site for 24 hours a day (even though we would love too.) Your mistake in this argument is the same as your last insults in the other post. You are much too quick to challenge people's experience and knowledge with knowing little, if anything, about the person posting. Whether or not I have used a .45acp against grizzly doesnt mean shit in this conversation. AGAIN, read the damn question. If I had to choose any weapon I want for grizzly, I would carry a freaking .50 bmg. BUT THIS ISNT THE QUESTION! STICK WITH THE TOPIC ON HAND!

DEFENSE IS MUCH DIFFERENT THAN OFFENSE! If the guy would of asked, "Hey, what handgun should I hunt grizzly with?" Then you would have something to speak of, but, he didnt. This is a discussion about .40-.44 as a backup/defensive gun on grizzly. If you still cant get what the guy is asking, stay out of this forum instead of taunting people with your silly ass, childlike numerous posts.

Defense is different than offense!

If you dont believe me, ask your local police officer why they dont use/allow .44 magnums anymore.

"Walk Softly, And Carry A .45

This doesn't mean that you should start shooting at die sight of a threatening animal. If faced with a mountain lion in the path, don't turn or run. Look big, avoid direct eye contact, and don't cower. If a bear crosses your path, stop dead in your tracks and make noise. If it comes any closer, shoot pepper spray - not bullets. But when a wild animal continues to behave aggressively - and escape is not an option- you must be ready with firepower.

Carrying a handgun on the trail has nothing to do with offense and everything to do with defense. The handgun you would choose to hunt with, despite its great power and accuracy, may not be the best choice for an unexpected defensive need. In such instances, no handgun will seem powerful enough. But to be of any value, your trailgun must be with you. The problem with packing a sidearm is its bulk and weight, and that too heavy .454 whopper that you left at camp will not do you much good on the trail when seconds count.

For me, the solution is the .45 auto. It is flat and compact, and I can carry it all day. It may not be a powerhouse - but it's big enough to do the job.

I have lived in Grizzly Country and still walk where Old Ephraim roams. On the Alaskan Peninsula, my size-12 bootprint looked baby-like next to fresh bear tracks. If I knew that an altercation with a bear was around the corner, a pistol would not be my choice of armament, A .45 ACP bullet is a pesky gnat on the hide of a big bear. I know that. I also know myself. Chances are that I wouldn't tolerate the bother of carrying a rifle or a heavy-magnum handgun while fishing or hiking.

But my flat-sided .45 will always be with me. With luck, a shot into a nearby tree might convince a bear to play somewhere else. If that fails, however, I'd much rather tackle that bruin with a puny .45 than fight him off with a fly rod.

A friend had a run-in with a coastal grizzly a year ago, the species we used to call brown bear and still should. George survived, although it took a few hundred stitches to repair the damage. He had left his big handgun back at the camp. I bet he would have welcomed an easily carried little .45 ACP with a full magazine!

Of course, there are less hair-raising uses for a compact .45-caliber companion. The hunter knows that an opportunity to collect tender delicacies for the cooking fire may arise at any time - a quiet pistol shot saves expensive rifle ammo and does not make a mess of small game. A hiker or fisherman knows that a pistol can be carefully used as a signaling device in the event of severe injury.

.45 Ammo From A Trail Perspective

So, having settled on a trim .45 auto as our trail-gun, what type of ammunition should be selected? Today's factory ammo is the best the world has ever known, not only in quality but also in the variety of loadings available. The .45 ACP is a great example of this. Federal, Winchester, Remington, Speer Lawman, Cor-Bon, CCI Blazer - you name it - all are excellent and offer a wide choice of ballistics. Select from FMJ hardball, light hollow-point, heavy hollow-point for deeper penetration, or target wadcutter for mountain grouse and cottontails.

For proof of this abundance, a quick look through the current Shooter's Bible shows seven loads from Hornady ranging from the 185-grain JHP to the 230-grain FMJ. Magtech offers three, all with 230grain bullets. Federal also has three, including the highly regarded 230-grain Hydra-Shock. Remington and Winchester were well represented with a variety of loads. I found no .45 ACP shot cartridges listed. For the record, however, Remington has offered shot loads carrying number 12 shot, the same shot size found in .22 rimfire shot cartridges, while CCI's .45 ACP shot cartridge is loaded with number 9s. I've never tried .45 ACP shot cartridges, but there are those who have found them useful.

Good handloads are another option for the trail-gun, although each should be checked in the sportsman's personal .45 to ensure perfect feeding. The selection of bullets and powders suitable for handloading the .45 ACP is incredibly vast, and it would take volumes to list the various possible combinations. I can, however, report good results with the 200-grain Hornady XTP JHP, driven by 9.0 grains of SR 4756. This load is good for approximately 1,000 fps from a 5-inch barrel. The heavier 230-grain XTP hollow-point will clock right at 900 fps with 8.0 grains of the same propellant.

Nosler's 230-grain FMJ, another good bullet, is propelled to well over 800 fps with 8.5 grains of AA number 5 powder. I'm also fond of Oregon Trail's 225-grain truncated-cone Laser-Cast bullet. This bullet has provided top accuracy with a variety of loads found in the Laser-Cast reloading manual. All of the above loads are listed as maximum.

If The Moment Comes

On the trail, I load my .45 magazines with any one of the excellent hollow-point bullets first, followed by two rounds of hardball, and the remainder of the cargo heavy hollow-points. For the latter, I like CorBon's 230-grain +P JHP, which promises 950 for from a 5-inch barrel.

In the hopes of avoiding the necessity of having to shoot an aggressive animal, I'm willing to sacrifice the first round fired as a warning shot.

My theory behind this mixed load is that if noise-making and pepper spray (used with the off-hand) haven't solved the problem, then the bruin, cougar or coyote will probably only be a few feet away. If the warning shot doesn't work, a hollowpoint bullet will deliver a heavy initial blow, followed by two FMJs for maximum penetration, and with additional expanding projectiles in reserve,

This barrage may not instantly stop a dedicated bear in its tracks, but such bullets, if well-placed, should do the job. A cat or coyote won't make it beyond a couple of well-placed rounds. It's simply a matter of the portable gun in your hand being worth a lot more than the big gun back at camp - no matter the size of the beast encountered."

From " The Forty-Five Auto ON THE TRAIL"

Making any sense yet?

quote:

Originally posted by Gentleman Jack:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
bfrshooter, I wonder why our two 45 acp users on Grizz have not replied and shared thier experiences with us.I am quite interested in hearing about thier sucsses's aren't you?

Because we have jobs and cannot lurk on this site for 24 hours a day (even though we would love too.) Your mistake in this argument is the same as your last insults in the other post. You are much too quick to challenge people's experience and knowledge with knowing little, if anything, about the person posting. Whether or not I have used a .45acp against grizzly doesnt mean shit in this conversation. AGAIN, read the damn question. If I had to choose any weapon I want for grizzly, I would carry a freaking .50 bmg. BUT THIS ISNT THE QUESTION! STICK WITH THE TOPIC ON HAND!

DEFENSE IS MUCH DIFFERENT THAN OFFENSE! If the guy would of asked, "Hey, what handgun should I hunt grizzly with?" Then you would have something to speak of, but, he didnt. This is a discussion about .40-.44 as a backup/defensive gun on grizzly. If you still cant get what the guy is asking, stay out of this forum instead of taunting people with your silly ass, childlike numerous posts.

Defense is different than offense!

If you dont believe me, ask your local police officer why they dont use/allow .44 magnums anymore.

You are right defenes is different and as such the animal will be enraged and harder to stop again you show your lack of experience.

Any evidence of your success with the 45 acp??

Most would not recomend something that they do not think would be adequate,even if that is all that was asked about.

ANY EXPERIENCE??????????
And yes it is about whether or not you know for a fact or have used said weapon in defense against Grizz

back to you nimrod

quote:

If you dont believe me, ask your local police officer why they dont use/allow .44 magnums anymore.

Last time that I checked the cops were not facing enraged Grizzly's.......
Maybe you would like to enlighten us on this???

It seems to me that it is safer to use a smaller gun when HUNTING grizzlys but for one that is intent on chewing on your body, a larger gun is in order.
Then when HUNTING them, you would have a backup guide with a big rifle.
I, for one, would not feel safe with a little slabside. Shooting at a tree to stop a charge might work in one out of 100 charges but maybe it would be better to poke out both of the bears eyes with the fishing rod and sneak off in your stocking feet. The smell you leave behind would confuse the blind bear.
A big bore cannon doesn't weigh much more then a slabside either and anyone that would leave it in camp is wired wrong.
A good test would be to smear your body with bacon grease and walk the bear trails with a slabside, then report the results here.

I think the best handgun for bear protection is a S&W 4" 44 Mag with 300 gr or so hard cast bullets. Not too much recoil so you can shoot it with one hand if necessary, double action so you can grip it TIGHT and still shoot it. A double action is much faster to reload than a single action, after in todays world 2 legged varmints worry me as much as the bears do.

I do not like ANY semiauto for field use as it is very possible that you might have to shoot an animal after it has knocked you down or jumped on top of you while you are sleeping.
A revolver is much better in this instance.

My favorite handgun is a 1911 45 ACP. Just today I fired couple of hundred rounds through mine. I shot some of Buffalo Bores 230 gr Flat Point ball @ 950 fps.

Of your two choices I would recommend the 45 and a similar 230 FMJ load.
I will be hunting black bear with my FA 475 Linebaugh the last 2 weeks in June. I will have my 45 with the BB loads as backup.
I did not bring the 44 as the 45 is serving as my Traveling piece and will just have to do double duty.

NE 450 No.2

I'm using this bullet for my .45 ACP/AR cartridge loadings for my 4" Taurus Tracker TI. The load: 989 fps Beartooth WFNPB .360" melpat bullet dia. 452" AA #5 8.9 grains

www.beartoothbullets.com you won't be sorry.

I do have a RSRH as pictured above, that is for hunting purposes, but when carrying the .45 the load listed will be the one carried.

Those that use and recomend unsuitable size firearms for Grizz protection are perhaps only trying to get to know the great bears better. Perhaps they want to know the the great bears as only Mr. Threadwell knows them (from the inside) as he was eaten by a Grizz. After years of wqarnings Mr. Threadwell felt that he knew more than the so called experts with thier God like knowledge, and he and his girl friend payed the ultimate price

To those that know that thier small firearm will work to save thier lives...
Since I have seen a few failures with certain firearms on Large game I will stick with what I know to work not what I think might work

quote:

jwp475

I see you live in Las Vegas, Nv. I got to ask, just how long have you lived amoung any Grizzly Bears?

Here in Montana, our Fish Wildlife and Parks Wardens carry .40 S&W backed up by 12 ga shotguns for the field, which they only break out should they have a problem. Even releasing a Griz back into the wild from a bear trap, they only have their .40 S&W's with them.

Griz in the lower 48 are quite differant than those Coastal Kodiak Browns you find in Alaska. You also have a better chance of getting struck by lightning than encountering a Grizzly here in Montana.

I live, play and work here 24/7 for more than 20 years and live here I have spent many a summer on the Spotted Bear Trail of the Bob Marshal, with no bear problems or one round fired.

I lived in Alska for 7 years and went on many fly in and drop off hunts( and still do go on back country hunts).I hunted the Bob last year for Elk and saw no Bears.
I actualy had an Artic Grizz come in on me on a Moose kill On the Kelly River outside Of Kotzbo and had to use my 475 revolver and it worked perfectly I don't belive a 45 acp would have been up to the task. I have used a hundgun on Alaskan Yukon Moose, Caribou,Deer, Buffalo, etc for manny years and have a pretty good understanding of what works and what does not.I have seen a few failures and would not want to see one if I was facing an enraged bear.Bear attacks are not as rare in Alaska as one in the lower 48 might think. The largest Brown Bear killed in MANY years on the Kenia peninsula was in defense of Life,(killed just recently).

[quote] I live, play and work here 24/7 for more than 20 years and live here I have spent many a summer on the Spotted Bear Trail of the Bob Marshal, with no bear problems or one round fired.[quote]

I work pipelines for a living and have worked nights in the Watts area of Southern California with out incident,but others weren't so lucky. An Inspecter was robbed at gun point and shot on the day shift,so what is your point,just because you have had no problem doesn't mean that others have not been attacked.I know a few years ago a young man was attacked in Montana and was luck to survive,after being severly mauled he was finally able to shoot the bear with his rifle and then seek help.He was lucky that the Hunter that he came upon for help happened to be a Dr.
The Doctors that treated him, said that he was lucky to have survived.

JB,
Several years ago a Montana Game Warden was mauld by a small Grizzly when he was releasing the trapped bear from a transport container.
Contrary to your experience bear attacks do happen in Montana

jwp475

I will quote you on your response on the thread "Handguns and Grizzly's"

quote:

P D SHOOTER, you are totally 110% correct no matter what weapon you have plan on WINNING.

In the lower 48 we are not dealing with 1,000 pound grizzly bears here, these are more like 500 pounders. Your chance of encounter or slim to none, and you stand a greater chance of being struck by lightning. We did have one encounter in the Jewel Basin area, where the loan hiker did shoot a griz sow defending his camp survived. She had a cub close by that tree'd else-where He was cooking fish on an open fire, she moved in on him and treed him. He pulled his .38 spl and shot her thru the eye, and she dropped dead right there. Documented report that can be verified thru the Kalispell Office of the Fish Wildlife and Parks. We had another down by the Nine Pike area where a hunter, that was hunting upland game (ducks I believe) turned just in time on a charging griz. He tripped the trigger on his 12 ga with a field load, and she fell dead on him. As a matter of fact his barrel on his 12 ga was bent from the bear.

The encounters that we do have, you will read about from Yellowstone National Park or Glacier National Park. No weapons allowed in these areas and usually it is a sow with cubs that does the attacking because of suprize trail encounters. More people have been killed by black bears than by grizzly bears by the way as well.

One first hand report to me on a Griz encounter was simply that last hunting season up the North Fork area while hunting, the encounter was simply the bear was observed approx 10 yards behind the reporting person who I know. The bear continued on down the trail and re-appeared approx 100 yards later. The reporter stated that the bear even had popping jowles etc when it went by, but did not attack as expected.

Encounters with mountian lions have been far greater, and we even had one attack by two preditory two legged critters that suprized the loan camper up on Red Meadow Lake trail above Whitefish, that not only shot him and then burned his body. A college kid just enjoying the summer before returning to school... attacked by two legged critters, not 4 legged ones.

The fact is that if your going to carry a handgun, carry what you can shoot and have a WINNING attatude as jwp475 was quoted to say above. Using super hard cast bullets in a handgun of a caliber you can handle prefer .40/10mm or above. Capt Kelly prefered a 10mm for his carry, but stated anything .40 cal and above will work on grizzly bears here. Gee he retired after 20 yrs of working with them, who would have thought.

jwp475, maybe your experience is a bit differant there in Alaska, amd after spending many years as an LEO I know what stops wild animals, both two legged and of the four legged kind.

quote:

Several years ago a Montana Game Warden was mauld by a small Grizzly when he was releasing the trapped bear from a transport container.

Contrary to your experience bear attacks do happen in Montana

And you recieved this report from who? As it was not made public that I know of... gee you would think I have an inside to FWP wouldn't you. The only close call that was reported was a FWP Warden who shot a griz with his .40 S&W after the bear turned to instead of running away from. But a Warden to my knowledge was never mauled. I have even done a google search and turn up nothing on ANY Montana Fish and Wildlife Warden getting mauled by a grizzly bear. So name your source please or post a link of the facts.

Here is a story of a mauling, but it is not of a FWP Warden Bear Mauling Story and another one of a hunter getting killed As reported in Bugle Magazine

I'm not here to inflame your postings, just please post the facts, not hear-say reports.

The source was a magazine article ( Outdoor Life,I believe) and at that time the Warden was armed with 357 Mag handgun ( according to the article),you could see from the pictures that the handguns were revolvers.Do not remember how many years ago this article was published,but it had still pictures with the article.As they were releaseing the bear one was taking picture and you could see another person still in the cab of the truck.You seem to have the attitude that if you don't know about something then it did not happen.
Around 1986 or 87 the Alaske Fish and game released a report concerning recomendation in reguards to weapons for Bear protection ( Grizz,both inland and coastal bears) and they said while they knew that bears had been killed with 12 guage shotguns,they did not recomend them. Are you aware of this report?

Again we are talking apples and oranges with incland and coast Alaskan Brown Bears compared to our grizzly bears here in Montana. Here in Montana the FWP will recomend a 12 ga against our grizzly bears.

That report you speak of is probably so old on the FWP Warden getting mauled because at that time they carried S&W mod 66 .357 mag revolvers.

I didn't say it did not happen, but usually when someone reports the facts a news link or story link is the proper way of reporting so as not to go by hearsay.

Coming from a LEO background we work with facts and hearsay is not facts, just an unconfirmed story.

JB, How many bears or other large game have you shot with your handgun?

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
JB, How many bears or other large game have you shot with your handgun?

I haven't had to defend myself with a handgun in the wilds as of yet.... but if I had to, I am determined to WIN the confrontation. I have with a rifle once and the critter, a dog of about 100 pounds lost the fight to a 200-gr 35 Remington. I have killed plenty of other game with a handgun of .45 Colt and .44 mag though. But it still seems that you have not stuck to the original quetion of .45 or .40 S&W vs bear. He only asked for two calibers A .45 or B .40 S&W, and instead you give him C which he didn't ask for at all.

None the less, it don't mean a thing. If working the street and one of my counter parts wins the gunfight with a 1911 .45 ACP, does that make all gunfights winable with a .45 ACP? No it does not, shot placement is everything.

See a video of a real bear charge

I do have a question for you though, how many days of each year do you spend in prime bear habitat? I can tell you for me I work 4 days a week in prime bear habitat, and still have yet to encounter a bad bear.

JB
I like 45 ACP revolvers. I used a S&W for a work gun for several years.

I have seen several Grizzlys in NW Montana.
One at a distance, two at @ 30 yards, 2 that came into camp at @15 yards, and one that snuck up to 12 feet of my wife, I was about 10 feet from her. Also one black bear snuck up to @12 feet from me.
Haven,t had to shoot any of them yet.
Always had a rifle and a hand gun.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
JB
I like 45 ACP revolvers. I used a S&W for a work gun for several years.

I have seen several Grizzlys in NW Montana.
One at a distance, two at @ 30 yards, 2 that came into camp at @15 yards, and one that snuck up to 12 feet of my wife, I was about 10 feet from her. Also one black bear snuck up to @12 feet from me.
Haven,t had to shoot any of them yet.
Always had a rifle and a hand gun.

I spent sometime with Scott McMillion who is the author of Mark of the Grizzly one summer. And teaching "Bear Aware" made me much more educated on the subject.

I live in British Columbia and have worked and played in the great outdoors for over 30 years.

We have an estimated 200,000 black bears and over 20,000 grizzlies as well as the most mountain lion attacks in the world.

I am one of just under 900 non-enforcement officers in Canada that legally carries handguns for defense of my life and the lives of others when I am in remote wilderness areas. Very rare permit......

In the winter months when the bears are sleeping I carry either my Glock 20 or Colt Delta Elite 10mm's with 190gr or 200gr bullets @ 1300fps.

The rest of the time when the bears are out I go with revolvers. If I am in black bear country I carry either a 6" S&W 629 44 mag with 270gr Gold Dot FP's @ 1300fps or a 5 1/2" s/s Ruger Bisley Vaquero in 45 Colt with 330gr Jae-Bok Young WFNGC's @ 1300fps.

When I'm in grizzly country I carry my 7 1/2" Ruger SRH 454 Casull with 360gr Cast Performance WLNGC's @ 1520fps or thier 390gr WLNGC's @ 1420fps.

I have had hundreds of black bears within 50 yards of me over the years and when I'm standing there with my little 10mm's I just don't feel all that comfortable.

My Marlin 1895GS 45-70 with hard cast 405gr RNFPGC's at 1900fps or JB Young's 550gr Crater's @ 1600fps is never all that far away from me either.

My recommendation is to carry the most powerful handgun that you can shoot fast and accurately.

quote:

Posted Jun 13, 9:51 AM

quote:
Originally posted by jwp475:
JB, How many bears or other large game have you shot with your handgun?



I haven't had to defend myself with a handgun in the wilds as of yet.... but if I had to, I am determined to WIN the confrontation. I have with a rifle once and the critter, a dog of about 100 pounds lost the fight to a 200-gr 35 Remington. I have killed plenty of other game with a handgun of .45 Colt and .44 mag though. But it still seems that you have not stuck to the original quetion of .45 or .40 S&W vs bear. He only asked for two calibers A .45 or B .40 S&W, and instead you give him C which he didn't ask for at all.

JB, AS I stated earlier if some one asked which is better to pull a 40' RV with a Toyota Tocoma or an F-150 would you recomend either,I would not.I don't consider the 45 acp or the 40 S&W as adequate under any and all conditions,so in good faith could not recomend eithet,not saying that under the right conditions one or the other could not work just saying that they lack the penetration ability and one may not have the opertunity under attack to get the perfect shot placement of. I know that inadequate shot placement will not work no matter what the power level of the weapon I am just saying that you need enough power in case you hit major bone so that the bullet will penetrate deep enough to do the job.
David Threadwell thought that he knew the bears well enough to not need a weapon,He got away with it for many years,but in the end he became bear crap
I will be on the road for several days and will not be able to respond for a while

That is the point entirely. Shooting a black bear in the eye when it is hanging on a tree below you is different then shooting at a charging griz. Just where are you going to hit it? Would you be so calm and accurate as to place the boolit in the eye when it is waving all over or are you going to shoot anywhere you can hit it? Will the ACP penetrate the skull or break down a leg or shoulder? Even a 500# bear is nothing to fool with.
Everything I read here is that a shot has never had to be fired because the bear walked away. That makes a small gun very effective. Fine and good to practice safe things around any bear, but what happens when one of them decides it is going to get you?
Until someone says they stopped a bunch of charging bears dead in their tracks with a little pistol, I will carry a large bore revolver with very heavy boolits.
Eskimos kill polar bears with .22's. It is how they do it that counts. If they miss the spot or the bear sees them and comes after them, it is all over and the bear gets a full belly.
I fully understand that the question was about a choice between two inadequate guns and my answer is still neither one.

quote:

Shooting a black bear in the eye when it is hanging on a tree below you is different then shooting at a charging griz. Just where are you going to hit it?.

bfrshooter, the bear that got shot in the eye was a griz sow not a black bear, as I said this documentation can be checked out with our FWP Kalispell Office.

But anyway, you carry yours and I'll carry mine..... I'm off to work.

David Threadwell was an idiot and I do not believe anybody here is as much of or near as much of an idiot as this fool was. Geez

I have seen the photos of the Gov, employee being pulled from the top of the release cage by the little griz and yes he shot it with his revolver, it came out the release door and turned and grabed him but it was a 400 pound less bear I believe, that was years ago. Warden, forest ranger, I don't remember which he had a couple bites on his leg.

I was bluff charged several times by interior Griz at Denali, all under 600 pounds, thats a big bear at Denali. All stopped or viered off at 15 feet or more, If they had kept coming I would have gotten off a couple of fast shots as the service revolver 357 or mossberg 590 was out and ready. My job was working with the bears and keeping them and people apart and sometimes I had to push my luck. When off duty my 10mm glock was my carry gun everywhere and it was real funny how all the big boys who made fun of my plastic pea shooter started fishing real close to me when a couple of bears showed up after 2 days of no bears and their large pistols were back at camp,,,

I still say if you are forced to shoot an attacking bear you have already screwed up. They do attack for the sole purpose of killing and eating sometimes but most often it's a screw up.

I have a 10mm slug lodged in the dirt bank coming up to my house, it went through the head,neck,chest, and out the rear leg of a pitt bull. Hate those dogs,,,,I may just have to go dig it out.

My way of thinking is, what round do you think will have sufficient power to reliably work with one shot and less than steller shot placement? Many poorly placed or maringally powerful followup shots are a piss poor replacement for one good shot.

My personal thought is, if my life is on the line, a 40 caliber would need to be pushing ~270 gr 1000 fps to 1200 fps, and a 44-45 cal would be pushing 300 gr the same speed before I'd bet my life on it.

I figure if you're facing a real charge, you're already running low on luck, and best not push what luck you have left by defending yourself with something the might work in idealized intenet discussions, but just might not work so great in the real world.

I just watched a comparison between the .45 and 40 S&W on Guns and Ammo TV. With close to the same weight bullets going 1000 fps, the energy was right at 400 fp. The .40 is only about the length of a 9mm. Very anemic guns if you ask me.

Jb I was just going back in the Bob the day or so after the guy shot the grizz coming up the tree after him.

If I remember right that bear had just been move from one of the camping areas. She had been in trouble before. I think that the 2nd attack that summer one up in the park.

I remember reading about the warden being attacked when releaseing the bear form the live trap. If I remember it it was some time ago mid 80's outdoor life, feild and stream or one of those did a short article on it with pics and every thing. He used his 357 fire all 6 shots bear dropped on last one. Bear did bite his leg up breaking the bones.

I timed the bear charged video and came up with a avg time of 2.5 sec to contact a trained pistol shooter from a snapped holser can draw and hit his target in apox 1.5 sec. Well trained shooter can do it in less. So that leaves one a whole sec extra to get off extra shots.

One doesn't know if there was extra time that they saw the bear. But just from what was shown one would have had plenty of time to place more the one shot on target.

Use as much gun as one can carry soem times it going to be a good size rifle other times it is going to be a handgun. But any gun is better then a rock. stick, your fist.

OR BENDING OVER AND KISSING YOUR ASS GOOD BYE.

That idea was thought up by anti gunners anti jpeople and pro bears.

Only once would I not have had time to fire at least 3 shots with the glock or 1 with the 590, that time the bear 300-500 pound griz walked right up to me before either one of us saw each other, I was grayling fishing in a small stream. I do not remember thinking to drop the pole and pull the glock but as he woofed and reared up I was looking at him through the sights. I talked to him, average voice no yelling and he turned and galloped off through the brush. I talked to myself reallllll loud until I was away from the creek and out in the open. I even remembered my fishing pole......