I'm starting to get my plans together for a cape buffalo hunt in a couple of years. I'm torn between the 400 and 420 gr .475" cast gas checked bullets (both in the long flat nose configuration). On the Beartooth site "calculator" there seems to be a compromise where the lighter bullet might actually give slightly (10%) better penetration due to the ability to get marginally higher velocity to help offset the lighter weight. Where as energy (1/2MxV^2) isn't completely relevant in my mind due to there not being any expansion, but momentum (MxV) on the other hand *would* be due to better penetration. Using rough numbers from reloading manuals, again the 400 gr. seem to have an advantage.

I realize that all of this is theoretical but at this point I have nothing else to go on, but some of you might have actual in-the-field experience.

BTW, I've gotten recommendations for "punch" bullets but I'm inclined to think that they would be prohibitively expensive to practice with.

I have used 420 grain LFN's on Bison that went a it over 2000 pounds, Asian Buffalo, Alaskan Yukon Moose and Grizzly bear with excellent results. I would not push a hard cast over 1400 fps. 1300 to 1350 would be more shootable as well as very effective.

As I suggested to you on Handgun Hunter, I would look at Cutting Edge Bullets' solid in .475. It weighs 340 grains and has a pretty good nose profile. Plus, with the right powder, you can get some good velocity out of the .480. The buffalo I shot in Argentina weighed more than 1,500-lbs.



Punch bullets are another good option. Yes, both options are costly, but they are good bullets that won't deform under any circumstances. I think one of the worst areas to skimp is your bullet selection. JMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
I have used 420 grain LFN's on Bison that went a it over 2000 pounds, Asian Buffalo, Alaskan Yukon Moose and Grizzly bear with excellent results. I would not push a hard cast over 1400 fps. 1300 to 1350 would be more shootable as well as very effective.

John, he's got a .480, not a .475 Linebaugh.

I did this one with 425 gr. Cast Pewrformance. One complete pass through. One in shoulder on off side. But in .475 Linebaugh:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
I have used 420 grain LFN's on Bison that went a it over 2000 pounds, Asian Buffalo, Alaskan Yukon Moose and Grizzly bear with excellent results. I would not push a hard cast over 1400 fps. 1300 to 1350 would be more shootable as well as very effective.

John, he's got a .480, not a .475 Linebaugh.

A 400 grain at 1200 FPS out of the 480 would be serious medicine.

quote:

A 400 grain at 1200 FPS out of the 480 would be serious medicine.

Beats a lot of old black powder rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
As I suggested to you on Handgun Hunter, I would look at Cutting Edge Bullets' solid in .475. It weighs 340 grains and has a pretty good nose profile.

Ouch, those are on the spendy side. I sure wouldn't be practicing with those.

Yes, but it is still a heck-of-a-lot cheaper than the trophy fee of said Cape buffalo, and the day rate, not to mention the $2,500.00 round trip airfare to Johannesburg. My point is that it will be in an excess of $15,000 dollars when you add it all up. Premium bullets are a comparative drop in the bucket. I use hard cast bullets extensively, but with so much on the line, I find these bullets (and Punch bullets as well) to be a small piece of insurance. Again, JMHO.

I hear you loud and clear on the costs, but again, when you have so much on the line, why cut costs here? I'm not being critical, I get it.

quote:

Ouch, those are on the spendy side. I sure wouldn't be practicing with those.

You don't have to practice a lot with them just enough to make sure you know where is gun is shooting on with them.

practice with a cheaper bullet.

I would have no qualms using a hard cast on a Cape Buffalo. Elephant I would go Punch Bullet or CEB.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
I would have no qualms using a hard cast on a Cape Buffalo. Elephant I would go Punch Bullet or CEB.

You might if you have to fly half-way around the world and you're dropping $15 - 20K on a hunt......

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
I would have no qualms using a hard cast on a Cape Buffalo. Elephant I would go Punch Bullet or CEB.

You might if you have to fly half-way around the world and you're dropping $15 - 20K on a hunt......

Not me, in fact hard cast would be my first choice. I've taken larger bovine than a Cape buffalo without issue using hardcast. I'll be the first to admit that all hard cast are not created equal and a proper hard cast is paramount for perfect results.

I have shot who knows how many cast bullets out of handguns. But if I was spending 10000s of dollars on a hunt.

I would spend the money Punch or the CEB.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
I have shot who knows how many cast bullets out of handguns. But if I was spending 10000s of dollars on a hunt.

I would spend the money Punch or the CEB.

They will work fine but no better than a proper hard cast. 2000 pound bison, grizzly 2 Alaskan moose over 53" spread, Asian buffalo all fell quickly to a hardcast. Plenty of wound trauma and penetration.

It is not always the size of the dog in the fight. But the size of the fight in the dog!

At least that is what I have heard.

quote:

Originally posted by Turk1961:
It is not always the size of the dog in the fight. But the size of the fight in the dog!

At least that is what I have heard.

The size shows the ability to penetrate and break large shoulder bones.

Why not get a cast bullet with a similar size and shape, especially the nose profile. Shoot them both at close to longer ranges and see if they shoot to about the same point.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but can't you take the 480 and seat the bullet out farther to a similar coal of the 475 and get similar velocities?
The pressures are about the same aren't they?
480 = 48k
475 = 50k

Which 480 are you shooting?
You could always have the cylinder reamed out a little longer for 475 if you wanted, and could get it done in time.

quote:

Originally posted by Lar45:


Which 480 are you shooting?
You could always have the cylinder reamed out a little longer for 475 if you wanted, and could get it done in time.

I'll using the Ruger Super Redhawk with UltraDot 30mm optic.

Ive seen poor performance on cape buff with hardcast. Their bone structure is unrivaled lb for lb. very tough animals and ya dont want the meplat to fail by deforming. On same
Size buff weight wise ive seen an expandable 44 mag make it thru to the offside hide on bison and thru the shoulder seen a hardcast 475 not make it to the offside hide. Freshly killed animals so we could control the angle and location. This summer we'll see how ceb work.

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
Ive seen poor performance on cape buff with hardcast. Their bone structure is unrivaled lb for lb. very tough animals and ya dont want the meplat to fail by deforming. On same
Size buff weight wise ive seen an expandable 44 mag make it thru to the offside hide on bison and thru the shoulder seen a hardcast 475 not make it to the offside hide. Freshly killed animals so we could control the angle and location. This summer we'll see how ceb work.

Something wrong with a hard cast that doesn't exit a Cape. I know people that shot Cape Buffalo with hard cast and the bullets exited. Either the nose shape is incorrect or the hardness is incorrect.

Absolute lbt style and in one case official lbt bullets. Yes they can work and do, but they do fail more often and will not have the structural integrity of a ceb monometal solid and a barnes buster. I shoot ceb's out of all my calibers when lots of money is riding on the hunt. I think its smart but if ya disagree so be it

And in one case the bullets in question were from a company you regularly espouse. Perhaps there was a problem with them, possibly they deformed hitting bone at an angle. Is there any way to know they have a problem without watching years of saving run off into the bush never to be seen again. My ph is very pro handgun, he doesnt like lead on buff and bigger. This is not due to a preconcieved notion but based off of results in the field on his hunts.

I have used a few cast that were purchased on big buffalo with a problem, but I have most used my own casts water quenched cast in a true LBT mold. I believe that any bullet make can have bad one once in a while.
I have seen cast fail, and I always worked figure out why. It always boiled down to a bad allow and or hardness issue or a bad nose shape and or meplat.
I would use a cast if it were my hunt.

Gentlemen, not to be picky but the buffs you show are not Cape's. Has anybody dropped a Cape
w/ a pistol? Picts and info would be great.

quote:

Originally posted by kingd:
Gentlemen, not to be picky but the buffs you show are not Cape's. Has anybody dropped a Cape
w/ a pistol? Picts and info would be great.

While you are correct, both species of buffalo shown above typically get bigger than Cape buffalo. This is relevant to the discussion of breaking down a large bovine in my humble opinion. That said, a number of the posters here in this thread have also taken Cape buffalo with revolvers.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by kingd:
Gentlemen, not to be picky but the buffs you show are not Cape's. Has anybody dropped a Cape
w/ a pistol? Picts and info would be great.

While you are correct, both species of buffalo shown above typically get bigger than Cape buffalo. This is relevant to the discussion of breaking down a large bovine in my humble opinion. That said, a number of the posters here in this thread have also taken Cape buffalo with revolvers.

Spot on, Whitworth.

I will without certain tell you they are tougher than waterbuff and bison. Significantly more so than bison. Ive taken all of them with a revolver and the cape was tougher in all ways even to the point that the meat was brutally tough to cut thru with a knife. The hide on my cape buff was very very thick and while close to as thick as my large waterbuff it was much much tougher. The bone structure is thicker. I dulled a havalon blade just cutting a bullet out of the gristly shoulder. While lb's wise a bison may weigh more they are not even remotely compareable. The cape is squatter and thicker thru the shoulders. Kinda like comparing a bullmastiff and a german shepherd. They both moght weigh 120lbs but its not the same 120lbs. One would make a potentially expensive and dangerous mistake to compare them. That said, my cape buff was estimated to be over 2000lbs and just missed top 10. It was much thicker than the smaller bulls and females ive seen. The herd bull was another magnitude larger and near 2500lbs. To not make that distinctio. Could be a real real problem and a bery bad mistake

http://wildugandablog.com/ugan...frican-cape-buffalo/

Craig Boddington in Sports Afield:

"Water buffalo are considerably bigger; the largest African buffalo bulls rarely weigh more than 1,500 pounds, while a big water buffalo bull will weigh a ton. Both are incredibly strong. I’ve seen water buffalo taken easily with fairly light rifles but, once adrenaline is up, I’ve also seen them take multiple good hits from heavy calibers. Cape buffalo, of course, are notorious for being tough—but I don’t think there’s much difference there, except that the water buffalo, whether he’s as tough or not, is a whole lot bigger—and that does make a difference."

You can see the article in its entirety here:

http://www.sportsafield.com/co...alo-vs-water-buffalo

That would be his opinion and valid but the cape buff i dropped was to be honest a bit larger than the water buff ive seen on most people sights. I would humbly disagree with boddington and know several folks doen the road that have taken more than any of us combined and would heartily disagree with his assesment but next time hes stops by their house ill ask them to have him clarify

Boddington's assesment matches exactly what Ross Seyfried told me in a conversation a few years ago.

Once again, ill defer to those that have shot more in one trip than either combined. In fact, one of the hunters took over 160 elephants over 10 years and says enequivocably that the cape buffalo is the hardest animal to bring down theyve ever hunted but opinions vary. I could see comparing a 1000lb cape to a 2k lb waterbuff. Hell lynn thompson has a video knocking over waterbuff with single shots out of a 44 mag. You wont see that with any cape buff hunt ive ever heard of.

Boddington also qualifies his opinion that the african cape buff is more aggressive and more wary, but that the waterbuff is typically bigger. I will qualify my statement again, that when dealing with the really large cape buff which can and do get over 2k lbs they are tougher when the waterbuff isnt significantly larger. Get on a good herd bull thats extremely large and i bet your opinion will change. Cut them open and opinions will change. Ive cut on both and everything from bone/sinew and muscle is thicker tougher on the cape. The hide can be thicker on the waterbuff but that doesnt designate tougher as an animal fighting for life. Find me a domesticated cape buff. Theres plent of the wsterbuff hauling water and plowing fields as we speak

quote:

Theres plent of the wsterbuff hauling water and plowing fields as we speak

In Pakistan I have seen plenty of water buffalo working in the fields but only the cows not the bulls for some reason. To aggressive I suppose.

Regards, Keith

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
Boddington also qualifies his opinion that the african cape buff is more aggressive and more wary, but that the waterbuff is typically bigger. I will qualify my statement again, that when dealing with the really large cape buff which can and do get over 2k lbs they are tougher when the waterbuff isnt significantly larger. Get on a good herd bull thats extremely large and i bet your opinion will change. Cut them open and opinions will change. Ive cut on both and everything from bone/sinew and muscle is thicker tougher on the cape. The hide can be thicker on the waterbuff but that doesnt designate tougher as an animal fighting for life. Find me a domesticated cape buff. Theres plent of the wsterbuff hauling water and plowing fields as we speak

I guess we can agree to disagree because there ain't many 2000 pound capes running around in the opinion of boddington and Seyfreid as well as the PH that Jack and Shawn had on their Cape safari. I tend to agree by the way they are built much like an angus bull in height, length, etc.

Lynn Thompson typically uses a high shoulder shot which is very effective. that shot would work equally well on a cape buffalo

Lets hope so. Ill be doing it again in a week!

Good luck!

Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
Lets hope so. Ill be doing it again in a week!

Are you going back with the 454? What else is on the agenda besides buffalo?

BTW, Good Luck!

Capebuffalo, lioness, possibly,impala,kudu waterbuck, blesbock,and id love a warthog