I'm experiencing bad lead fouling with Laser casat bullets in a SBH. My load is 8.5 grains of Universal clays over a 240 gr semi wadcutter. It chronographs just a tad over 1100 fps. 18 rounds and the first two inches of the barrel have a lot of lead. Nothing in the forcing cone though.

I called Laser cast and the gal I talked to told me that all magnum loads required a heavy roll crimp as per their data.

My understanding was that MAGNUM loads required the heavy roll crimp and I was shooting a pretty light load. She also told me that I needed to seat the bullet and crimp in two seperate operations????????? I don't quite understand how that works. She also said I shouldn't be getting any leading with their bullets.

I put a heavier crimp on 18 rounds and fired them today. The lead fouling is every bit as bad.

Any suggestions? Change powder? I recently acquired the gun almost new. Barrel looks to be smooth as glass.

Migra

The crimp has nothing to do with the lead fouling, seem's like she is on a completely differant page than you are on.

I would just live with it. Any lead bullet will foul your barrel even the hard cast. I have found that lazer cast is probably the best of the high volume production cast bullets. If this is a big problem for you then the next step will be to go to a gascheck.

Forgot to mention yes you should seat and crimp in two stages, Still has nothing to do with fouling.

I understand that lead bullets foul. The amount of leading from 18 rounds is unaceptable, especially with the reputation these bullets have.

Enlighten me as to the need to seat and crimp in two different stages. Does this require a different set of dies or just adjusting the same die between stages?

migra

With my .44's like your SBH I use two RCBS dies because I'm loading on a 550. If you'r single stage loading then you can seat, readjust and then crimp.

On my .45 cals I use a lee crimp die By far the best still do it in two stages.

The die just works better when done in two stages.

Mike the bullet... it sounds like it is either a bullet that is too small or a bullet that is too hard. Probably a combination of both. Your load sounds light, and commercial bullets are too hard for most plinking applications.

Move to 10 grains of Unique and see if the leading goes away.

The problem is the hard wax lube that Laser Cast and most commercial bullet casters use. It is more for their convenience so the lube stays on the bullet. I sugest you soak them in Coleman fuel (a coffee can works well) for an hour or so and then swish them about a bit, drain the fuel and residue off (no smoking please) and let dry. Relube them with a good lube like Javelina or tumble lube with Lee Liquid Alox. The leading after that should be minimal if any. I have shot thousands of their bullets (I lived close by) using the above in .357, .44 and .45 without any leading and excellent accuracy.

Sometimes simply giving them a good coat of LLA without washing the wax lube off works as well. might try that first.

Larry Gibson

Take one of your Laser Cast slugs & see if you can push one through each chamber, is should be a snug fit, if it slips right through then your slugs are too small.Usually .431" is about right.
Also, Laser Cast bullets are very good quality but they are also very hard, hard bullets and slow/medium velocities are not a good combination because the bullet doesn't "slug" up & seal the bore.
As mentioned raising the powder charge a bit could very well eliminate the problem. No way should you be getting that kind of leading after 18 rounds. As always with cast bullets you have to match the bullet hardness to the desired velocity, if you get that & have correct bullet "fit" you will pretty much have zero leading, even after hundreds & hundreds of rounds.
My competition revolver (610 S&W) probably has 4,000 rounds down the barrel since the last cleaning & its as clean as a brand new barrel.

Dick

Dick

For non gas checked bullets, I keep them under 1000 fps.. When you push them faster they tend to lead the barrels..

Maybe you have a rough bore that needs to be fire lapped

You're getting some good advice, Migra. Is this a new revolver? Have you miked the chamber mouths and your bore? Tight chamber mouths vs. larger bore could also be the culprit, sizing down your bullets before they reach the bore and allowing gas cutting and skidding.

I sent for samples of those boolits and they are too small, too hard and also have poor lube. They lead a bore like crazy and are not accurate.

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
For non gas checked bullets, I keep them under 1000 fps.. When you push them faster they tend to lead the barrels..

We generally don't use gas checks and never experience leading. Whose bullets are you using, Redhawk?

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
For non gas checked bullets, I keep them under 1000 fps.. When you push them faster they tend to lead the barrels..

We generally don't use gas checks and never experience leading. Whose bullets are you using, Redhawk?

I don't any longer.. I have not used a non gas checked bullet for over 15 years now.. I don't even remember who's bullets I use to buy..

I will stick to gas checked bullets from Montana Bullet Works, never had a problem, and have been using them for many many years.

Dick is spot on. The Lasercast bullets are too hard to run slow. Running too hard a bullet too slow will lead just as badly as running too soft a bullet too fast. The box of Lasercast bullets I have is awaiting meltdown to be combined with some wheelweights or lead to soften up the alloy a bit.

As bfrshooter (for whom nothing is accurate unless he made it) pointed out; the size of the bullet is important as well. I think Dick touched on this also.

Gas checked bullets are nice, but I rarely shoot them. I prefer plain base bullets and have no troubles with them. Casting my own allows me to match the hardness of the bullet and lube to what I intend to do with the bullet.

Don't give up on cast bullets. You are experiencing the common problems most new cast bullet shooters run into. Once one learns how to use the proper bullet; it works very well indeed.

quote:

Originally posted by migra:
I'm experiencing bad lead fouling with Laser casat bullets in a SBH. My load is 8.5 grains of Universal clays over a 240 gr semi wadcutter. It chronographs just a tad over 1100 fps. 18 rounds and the first two inches of the barrel have a lot of lead. Nothing in the forcing cone though.

I called Laser cast and the gal I talked to told me that all magnum loads required a heavy roll crimp as per their data.

My understanding was that MAGNUM loads required the heavy roll crimp and I was shooting a pretty light load. She also told me that I needed to seat the bullet and crimp in two seperate operations????????? I don't quite understand how that works. She also said I shouldn't be getting any leading with their bullets.

I put a heavier crimp on 18 rounds and fired them today. The lead fouling is every bit as bad.

Any suggestions? Change powder? I recently acquired the gun almost new. Barrel looks to be smooth as glass.

Migra

I too had fun with those bullets. They are very cheap for me because I can just pick them up. But it took a while to find a recipe that shot cleanly. The following link might give you some ideas. Have fun!

S&W329pd information

Redhawk, I been using 300grn WFNGC's from castcore for my hot loads in my R SBH and my Winch. 16" Trapper. They both love them. Driving them w/ 19-19.5grns H110. I see where you use Montana's. Can you give me more info on them. Went to their site, they look good w/ good prices. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by kingd:
Redhawk, I been using 300grn WFNGC's from castcore for my hot loads in my R SBH and my Winch. 16" Trapper. They both love them. Driving them w/ 19-19.5grns H110. I see where you use Montana's. Can you give me more info on them. Went to their site, they look good w/ good prices. Thanks.

I have been using MBW for quit a number of years, 357 Mag to my 500 Mag.. I have never had a problem with his bullets in any of my guns. When I driving them fast or slower, it does not lead my barrels and I have got great accuracy with them..

I load for my 357 Mag, 45 Colt, 475 Linebaugh, 480 Ruger, 500 Mag, 45-70 rifle, 375 H&H rifle and my 30-30. All with great results.

I also used them in my 44 Mag, S&W 460 and 454 Casull all with great results. I have taken a bunch of different game with them, and have not lost one animal while using them.. The only problem I have is, I can never find a bullet (joke) as I get 2 holes every time, that was not really a problem but a testament to how his bullets do not come apart, even when they have gone through bone. Nice hole in and out.. Great prices as well.

We all have different opinions and that is good. Over 50 years of working with boolits has shown that the faster the powder, the quicker the pressure rise, the harder the boolit has to be.
But fit to the gun is also important and a boolit too small will have gas leakage that will erode lead onto the bore. All the Laser Cast I had were smaller then groove to groove size in my guns but if they fit yours, they will work OK. It is not good to have a .457" boolit for a .4598" groove to groove. Even my BFR revolver has .4592" throats and a .458" groove size. The boolit is trouble from the start. Lube IS poor, being too hard.
There is no way to "BUMP" up a hard boolit to fit. If it fits first, there is no need for it and bump up usually ruins a boolit.
Why does Laser Cast insist on .457", .429" and .451" sizes? Yes, they are too hard to seal the bores but it is not the hardness alone, it is FIT. Most 45-70 rifles will have up to .460" groove sizes and some even larger. There seems to be no standard sizes depending on age.
Lyman is as bad with molds that cast .457".
In no case does boolit expansion to obturate increase accuracy. Making a small boolit soft to seal is folly.
You need to meet the mechanical needs of your revolver, not force a boolit to change.
If you notice, the best boolit makers offer different diameter boolits to match your gun. So do the best mold makers, even Rapine offers what you need.
Laser Cast is no better then the bulk boolits that all have a bevel base.
Redhawk is wrong, I have taken PB boolits to over 1800 fps with no leading and great accuracy. It is easy to make a gas check fail too. The problem is that too hard and too fast does not make a good hunting boolit.
I defer to Dick, he is correct but most Laser Cast will be .429" for the .44. You are screwed from the word go!

Not really "screwed" at all. Just relube them and accuracy will be more than acceptable and leading will be nil.

When buying commercial bullets "across the counter" you are stuck with what they are. Doesn't matter what size the throats or groove depth of your revolver is, the bullets are what they are. With that in mind it is the poor lube that is causing the leading. I have shot thousands of Laser Cast and other commercial bullets with complete satisfaction and with out any leading simply by relubing them.

Larry Gibson

As expected,lot's of good advice all. Thanks. A few more details. The bullets are .431 diameter. They will not pass through the cylinder unassisted. By this, I mean if I wanted them to pass through. it would require a rod and mallet.

The gun is new to me and the previous owner only shot factory ammo through it and I doubt it had been shot more than 50 times when it ended up on my doorstep.

I don't know if firelapping would help because the bore is mirror shiny. Wher the chambers taper down, there are some machine marks that could be grabbing some lead on the way through, but the forcing cone is clean. Leading starts immediately after the forcing cone in the barrel.

I think what I will try first is changing powder. (H110 was always a favorite with jacketed bullets) and if that doesn't cure me, I'll try the Lee liquid lube and size them down to .430 diameter.

When I find the cure, I'll post.

Migra

Your cylinder throats may be a bit undersized, a careful measurement will tell the tale. The throats should be a bit larger than the bore

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:

Redhawk is wrong, I have taken PB boolits to over 1800 fps with no leading and great accuracy.

Why does Laser Cast insist on .457", .429" and .451" sizes?

Jumping to incorrect conclusions again.

How can Redhawk1 be wrong, his exeperience is what it is and he corrected the problem the way he did. No right or wrong just different

quote:

Originally posted by migra:
Thanks. A few more details. The bullets are .431 diameter.
Migra

quote:

Posted 01 February 2011 19:01 Hide Post
Not really "screwed" at all. Just relube them and accuracy will be more than acceptable and leading will be nil.

When buying commercial bullets "across the counter" you are stuck with what they are. Doesn't matter what size the throats or groove depth of your revolver is, the bullets are what they are. With that in mind it is the poor lube that is causing the leading. I have shot thousands of Laser Cast and other commercial bullets with complete satisfaction and with out any leading simply by relubing them.

Lube is important and I use only Felix lube. But even a .429" jacketed bullet will not shoot as good as a .430" jacketed in my .430" groove barrel.
A .430" cast will shoot as good as a .431" or .432" but never a .429".
Just match groove to groove size to start. Even a larger throat size will not be as bad as a boolit under groove to groove size.
Lube alone will not help a .457" boolit in a .460" bore. Lube is NOT a seal.
If you get better results with a lube change, it means your boolits fit but the lube sucks.
Years and years of lube testing has shown me that any form of Alox burns in the bore and leads a barrel more. Hard lube in a revolver also sucks. Chunks of lube leaving the boolit at the muzzle while some stays in, will throw boolits out of balance.
Lube is so important it is unreal but a lube change does not change boolit fit.
I can cut groups in half with a lube change, but that does not alter fit first.

It has been my experience that the hard cast bevel base bullets can't be driven over 1,000 fps without excessive leading. Maybe changing the bullet lube or tumbling in liquid alox will help, I haven't tried it. I keep mine ( laser cast ) loaded to about 950 fps for target practice and plinking, but load a flat base or gas check for velocities over 1,000fps.

As long as the cylinder throats are larger than the bore, and as long as the hard cast bullet is a thousandth or so larger than the bore and as long as a proper lube is used and the bore is good, it does not matter if a very hard cast bullet is shot at low velocity or high velocity they will not lead

Call Veral Smith at LBT and ask him or shoot him a E-Mail. This is provable and repeatable and accuracy will as good as that revolver is capable of as long as the load work up is sound

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:

Redhawk is wrong, I have taken PB boolits to over 1800 fps with no leading and great accuracy. It is easy to make a gas check fail too. The problem is that too hard and too fast does not make a good hunting boolit.
I defer to Dick, he is correct but most Laser Cast will be .429" for the .44. You are screwed from the word go!

Oh I forgot you know it all..

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:

Redhawk is wrong, I have taken PB boolits to over 1800 fps with no leading and great accuracy. It is easy to make a gas check fail too. The problem is that too hard and too fast does not make a good hunting boolit.
I defer to Dick, he is correct but most Laser Cast will be .429" for the .44. You are screwed from the word go!

Oh I forgot you know it all..

That's OK bfrshooter will remind you

I'm using the same Laser Cast bullet in my Smith 29. I'm running them at higher velocity than you are, but I don't get leading in my barrel. I'm using 19.0 grs of AA#9 for just over 1200 fps (1240 I believe) out of my 6" Smith.

--EDIT-- I checked my bullets, they are .431"

I was pleasantly surprised at how well this combo shoots for me. It also cuts very clean holes in paper as well.

I was concerned at first that the accuracy would be less, with the beveled base bullet, but they shoot really well for me, and this has been a great plinking round while at the range.

Maybe you should try hitting them with a heavier charge of powder? My buddy has a SBH in 44, and he shoots the same plinking load I do. I'll ask him Saturday when he comes over if he's having leading problems. He did say his new Ruger needed the barrel firelapped, and he was going to shoot some jacketed out of it. We're gonna be casting bullets Sat, so I'll pick his brain about his Ruger.

quote:

Posted 02 February 2011 05:21 Hide Post
I'm using the same Laser Cast bullet in my Smith 29. I'm running them at higher velocity than you are, but I don't get leading in my barrel. I'm using 19.0 grs of AA#9 for just over 1200 fps (1240 I believe) out of my 6" Smith.

--EDIT-- I checked my bullets, they are .431"

I was pleasantly surprised at how well this combo shoots for me. It also cuts very clean holes in paper as well.

I was concerned at first that the accuracy would be less, with the beveled base bullet, but they shoot really well for me, and this has been a great plinking round while at the range.

Maybe you should try hitting them with a heavier charge of powder? My buddy has a SBH in 44, and he shoots the same plinking load I do. I'll ask him Saturday when he comes over if he's having leading problems. He did say his new Ruger needed the barrel firelapped, and he was going to shoot some jacketed out of it. We're gonna be casting bullets Sat, so I'll pick his brain about his Ruger.


Si tantum EGO eram dimidium ut bonus ut EGO memor

There you are, you lucked into boolits at .431" for a S&W groove to groove that should be .429". Most Rugers are .430" so what would you do with a .429" boolit?
Redhawk questions me and JWP tells the truth. Fit is first, then hardness to prevent boolit damage.
It is funny that my 45-70 revolver has reached 1800 fps with PB boolits with super accuracy and even the .454 at 55,000 psi will shoot a PB just fine. Very accurate with no leading at all.
These are jacketed loads from a friends .454 on the left but my PB loads, over max at 55,000 psi on the right. Shot at 50 yards. I don't know the velocity but it is not slow.
Get over it Redhawk, Cast can do it all if you know what your doing.

quote:

There you are, you lucked into boolits at .431"

The OP poster also stated that his Laser Cast bullets are .431". Therefore unless his cylinder throats are too small then the bullet should fill the bore properly. Also as others have posted the lube may not be good enough.

I have a question, how do you know that your 454 loads are at 55,000 PSI? Do you have a strain guage and if so what type of test barrel do you use?

No, I am not sure. I went by the loading manual and added more powder to over max just to see what the LP primer could take.
My boolit is also heavier then the load info so just maybe I have gone over 55,000 psi.
If I am below it a little, so what?
My whole point was that a PB and also a LP mag primer will stand up just fine and even show very good accuracy.
I can say that recoil was worse then factory loads.
You are nit picking! When I reach the point of hard extraction during testing, I back down right now. Much testing has reached that point with all calibers so I know what limits are. I will never approach those points again.

quote:

You are nit picking! When I reach the point of hard extraction during testing, I back down right now

Not nick picking at all, you made a statement of fact and I was currious as to how you would know that.

With the strenght of the BFR revolver IMHO&E when the extraction gets sticky you are well over max SAAMI pressure which means over 62,000 PSI

I don't think I am that high. Sticking is not real tight and primers are not flat. I am very careful working loads and always back down to the accuracy point. That will be under book max. I only go up to where groups just start to open again, then back down.
The only time I have gone higher was to prove that what is said about needing a certain primer is false. That was with the .454. I showed the LP mag primer would do better then the SR primer for working loads with slow powders. The most accurate loads were below what the SR primer would ignite. I never stuck a case with the .454 and found it is an easy caliber to work with once the stupid SR primer was done away with.

The loads that Ross Seyfried shot in his .45 Colt built on a Seville Frame in Federal Brass I believe with Federal LP mag primers - I believe they were the mag version but I know that they were Federal LP primers. According to John Linebaugh those loads were in the 60,000 PSI range.

We have learned over time that there is no reason to push bullet that hard and fast, but that was the order of the day over 20 years ago.

I noticed that I had no excessive leading when using hot loads with an heavy crimp or fast burning powders with same heavy crimp.
Looks lke the bullet expands and perfectly seals the barrel, no side erosion of the bullet, no leading and better accuracy.
I lube them with LEE after removal of the factory lube for years.

quote:

Posted 03 February 2011 00:03 Hide Post
The loads that Ross Seyfried shot in his .45 Colt built on a Seville Frame in Federal Brass I believe with Federal LP mag primers - I believe they were the mag version but I know that they were Federal LP primers. According to John Linebaugh those loads were in the 60,000 PSI range.

We have learned over time that there is no reason to push bullet that hard and fast, but that was the order of the day over 20 years ago.

Exactly, there was no reason to go to the SR primer for pressure reasons.
There is no reason for that much pressure except to test the guns for failure.
There is no reason to shoot the .454 over 40,000 psi. The SR primer FORCES you to load max or powder can fail to ignite unless you use faster powders.

quote:

Originally posted by .45 COLT:
I noticed that I had no excessive leading when using hot loads with an heavy crimp or fast burning powders with same heavy crimp.
Looks lke the bullet expands and perfectly seals the barrel, no side erosion of the bullet, no leading and better accuracy.
I lube them with LEE after removal of the factory lube for years.

The idea of shooting an under sized bullet and then having it bump up has its roots from shooting of bblack powder. With modern smokeless powder there is no reason to do so. Simply shoot a bullet that is at least .001 larger than your bores groove diameter and you will not experience any problems

quote:

The idea of shooting an under sized bullet and then having it bump up has its roots from shooting of bblack powder. With modern smokeless powder there is no reason to do so. Simply shoot a bullet that is at least .001 larger than your bores groove diameter and you will not experience any problems

My friend, you are 100% correct again.
Long ago barrel sizes were all over the place, yet I found bump up was not the solution even with BP. Accuracy always improved when a mold was lapped for a better fit, even with a Minie' ball in a musket.
Accuracy during the civil war sucked and it took thousands of shots to kill one soldier but millions of boolits were poured at the enemy.
Soldiers carried smaller and smaller Minie' balls so the crudded up guns could still be loaded. So much fouling, rifling meant nothing.

You fought in the Civil War, didn't you bfrshooter?