I'm with MS Hitman on this one. Just plain hard to beat the Cassul. It can be loaded down in the .45 Long Colt range for plinking to small game and loaded up to take out out big and nasty game. What more could you want?

Whitworth

I thought that glock20rocks (message above) summed it up best and here's my take.

The 454 Casull appears to be the clear winner with a comfortable margin in power for any North American game and with the use of 45LC cartridges you can download it all the way down to "urban varmint" type loads.

I don't own one because I'm a bit recoil and muzzleblast shy but fully acknowledge I'm missing out and my "big" hunting sidearm is a Super Blackhawk Hunter in 44mag.

As far as the 10mm handling up to deer sized game. I must also agree. I have an EAA Witness in 10mm that handily dispatches Florida Hogs and is so light and easy to carry that I consider it perfect as a hunting sidearm if the deer or small to medium sized black bear is your biggest game you might encounter.

Note: I've ordered a 14" 500S&W Encore barrel with a removeable brake and that may revise my opinions eventually.

Another Note: I have recently come into a 6" S&W Model 657 in 41mag and it might replace my 10mm as my favorite for small to medium sized game eventually but the gun is a lot bigger and more unwieldy than that handy Witness.

$bob$

If the Dems. ever maintain power & I were restricted to one pistol & one caliber, it would be a 4" 44mag. Easy to shoot w/ plinking or full house loads, shot carts. available, alot of reloading supplies, etc. I like the .357mag alot, but it can't run @ the top end where the .44mag shines. The .45colt would be a close second in a good 4" DA revolver. Versatility to me means being able to do everything with it, something the .357mag falls short on.

This probably a worn out question but...



I've been trying to decide on which versatile bigbore handgun to buy.



I'm hunting with a Ruger #1 in .300 win mag (amoung other rifles), and want a side arm bigger than my .357mag's, and I have been carrying my Sig, in .357sig lately. I'm heavily loaded with .358 cal pistols and rifles, and molds.



What's better for a bullet caster?



I'm leaning towards 45 cal.(45 Colt, 454 Casull or ?), over 44.mag because of molds that can be used in a host of great 45. cal guns. Isn't this a great example of versatility vs. a 44 magnum?, or is the 44 mag still a better choice?



I want protection from dangerous game, as I will eventually be hunting in many parts of the county, and maybe abroad someday, and having a packable bigbore, that can also be used for straight handgun hunting would be very cool. I always look for multible uses if possible.



But what cal., make, model, and size would best fit this bill?

Ruger, Smith, D. Wesson, BFR, Taurus (FA's too much $$,??



It's not been easy, trying to make a descicion.



Thanks in advance for any thoughts........!

Marlinlover, get a Ruger 45 LC Blackhawk w/ 5 1/2" barrel either blue or stainless. But, in the blue version, the 45 ACP cylinder can be had. Now, talk about versatility. My dollartwoninetyeight's worth.

Marlinlover, take your pick. There is no difference in the .44 or .45 in killing power. I have never found a deer yet that can tell me which one killed him deader. There are as many bullets for the .44 as there are for the .45. If hunting the big bears or moose, the .454 or larger would be my choice but there is no need for it on deer. I have the 45-70 BFR and took 2 deer with it this season along with one using my cap and ball and one with the .44. I could not tell the difference and neither could the deer. All died between 30 feet and 30 yds. Just buy what tickles your fancy. Yes, the .454 can be loaded down but how many times will anyone need full power loads in them?
I find a 335 gr. LBT in the .45 colt at 1160 fps, a 320 LBT at 1320 fps in the .44 or the 45-70 shooting my 317 gr. at 1535 fps leaves every deer dead exactly the same.
I have many-many deer with these revolvers over the years and find all of them better then rifles until the large bore rifles are used. We have only killed two deer with the Marlin .44 mag so far and it is great. Too easy though and I will stick with my revolvers for the hunting thrill versus just shooting a deer. Any boob can shoot a deer with a rifle and I find more jerks take shots that won't work with a rifle. They shoot through tree branches and brush with high velocity rifles thinking it will go through anything. Then they sight in for 100 yds and try to kill deer at 400 yds. I have more respect for the handgun hunter then any rifle hunter on earth. I feel happy to know you are one of us.

I have to admit that I am a 357 fan. I sold a 44 blackhawk several years ago. I do like the 44, I like the 357 better. The 357 is cheap to shoot, moderate recoil with heavy loads and the revolvers are not as heavy or bulky.

I often wonder why the 10MM is OK for hunting and the 357 is barely adequate for shooting gophers. What really gets me is that a lot of guys will recommend the 10MM (or 45ACP W/hardball) for Griz protection!

The 41, 44, 45 are good rounds as are the 9, 10, 45ACP. But the do all is the 357 in a medium revolver.

Id have to say .44magnum, But if given a .454 Id take it.

4X4, I love the .357 too, but I don't like to hunt deer with it because of losses recorded with it. A perfect shot and bullet will kill, but so will a .22. I sure won't hunt deer with a .22.

Well you guys got good tips, for an old dog... (well 44, ain't to old I guess).



So,



We've got bear, cougers, wild bore, and black tail deers, here in Kalifornia... right out my back door too.



I've been invited to hunt in Pennsylvania, Montana, Wyoming, and Oregon... and a fishing trip in Alaska also.



My long arms can handle all these critters, but alas... I need the wheel gun that I can carry along as bkup, and a 5- 6.5 barrel w/the extra weight doesn't bother me.



I'd just like to be able to hunt with it also, and I cast my own for the most part, but definately reload my own.



so idunno yet.....

After reading all the posts on this topic, I am really surprised there were only 4 votes going to the 10MM auto. The 10MM outshines the 38/357 mag in down range energy, and makes a bigger wound channel to boot.This round can be chambered in autos or the newer Smith & Wesson revolver.Another benefit with the 10MM auto is the amount of fire power available. There are still pre-ban magazines for the Glock 10MM that can hold 15 rounds of ammo. Thats more than twice as many shots per reload compared to the 357 mag. The 10MM can also shoot heavier bullets, which can be important when maximum penetration is an issue, like with bigger more dangerous critters.It becomes even better if you hand load.You can load it any where from 40S&W up to light 41 mag ballistics.
Im not saying it should be used as a primary weapon for anything larger than deer hunting. However I think it is the most versatile sidearm out there, if your looking for a round thats great for every thing from targets and small game all the way up to deer and home invaders.
Fordfreak

Ford, the 357 with a 180 @1250 4"barrel has muzzle energy of 675 ft-lbs and 535 ft-lbs @50 yards. The 10 with 175 @1290 5"barrel has muzzle energy 649 ft-lbs and 506 ft-lbs @50 yards. Give equal length barrels and the 357 will beat the 10 by 50 ft-lbs.

You are right that the 10 has a greater ammo capacity, but that leads us to a revolver v. auto argument.

I have shot several deer with my 357 and he has worked very well with 158 XTP at modest ranges. That bullet also worked extremely well on wild dogs (at least 50) shot while I was a LEO in a rural community.

The 44 mag has less energy at 50 yards that a 30-30 at 200 yards. I had a Ruger SBH 7 1/2 for years, great gun but I carried it very little.

When someone asks me about a handgun I almost always recommend the 357 in a stainless revolver. The 357 can be bought in most stores that has ammo, 38 is cheap and revolvers are safe and easy to learn and use.

I still think the 357 is more versatile.

In the 44 vs 45 debate, you can't go wrong with either one. Both are accurate rounds, and there are lots of suitable molds available for either. I'd probably lean towards the 45, but would never be delluded into thinking that any task the 44 was too small for, would be handled with ease by 6 shooter 45 colt loads.

I do believe the 454, 480, 475 and 500 are a notch up in power, and for critters larger then deer, are a good choice. As I've expressed before, I find the 480 the best of the lot, but contend the 454 is by far the most versatile.

So,

the top of the food chain is the Grizz right?, unless Yeti can kick his

arse...

how does the 45 Colt measure up defending oneself in case Yeti's

not around?

Another of those subjective topics!

While I certainly acknowledge the versatility of the 454, I still cast my vote for the 44 Rem mag.

The 454 requires a bigger handgun than I desire to pack and many of the 44s are larger than I prefer. The S&W 29 with a 6" barrel is my personal pick for an all around revolver and cartridge. Load down for small game, warm 'Special' loads for medium game, the occasional hot magnum load for big game, and...

a good rifle for potentially dangerous game

My 480 SRH loaded with a 400 gr @ 1200 fps is the smallest thing I'll put any faith in, and I also load a 460 gr @ 1050 fps. I acknowledge that it is less than ideal, but certainly better than nothing. If I really think I'll be facing bad situations, then I'll take a 458 lott rifle.



Don't take a knife to a gun fight, and don't take a pistol to a job for a dangerous game rifle. Self defense is an entirely different issue than hunting and taking shots under controlled conditions. I can see using a large bore handgun to hunt a grizzly, being aware of it's limitations, but I can't see relying on any handgun to defend ones life against a bear attack. Handguns only advantage are being on you when the rifle is in camp, in a scabbord, or otherwise inaccessible.

FF, nothing wrong w/ the 10mm, I have (2) but unless you are shooting the rev. you can't readily shoot mild plinking loads for small game & I'm not sure anyone makes a shot load for it. I like mine but I'ld grab the 4" M29 for a "fixanythinganytime" rig.

4x4sneak,
I guess it all depends on which ballistics chart your looking at.All the online charts I looked at show the 10MM ahead of the 357Mag in just about every category (fps/ft.lbs.).The only chart I could find that had the 357Mag on top was from Federal, and it was comparing hunting ammo in the 357 to self defence ammo in the 10MM.For example the Cor Bon web site lists the 357 Mag 180's @ 1265/640. The 10MM lists the 180's @1320/696.
Although barrel lenghths were not given on the Cor Bon site, they were on the other manufacturers pages. I think it would be great idea to have a shoot-out between the 10MM and the 357Mag with equal lenghth barrels just to see what the out come would be.
Fordfreak

Fordfreak,

First off, I just love the bikini girl. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Ford man.

Now, to the discussion of versatility:

Versatile is defined by The Merriam-Webster Dictionary as "turning with ease from one thing or postion to another". This definition is going to leave both the 10MM and the .357 Mag behind if viewed in the purest sense on the word. Neither of the above calibers is as effective on large game as the .454 or .475 Linebaugh and by large game, I mean something that can and will eat you or turn you into a puddle of goo. True enough, Elgin Gates killed a Cape Buffalo with a .357 Mag; after it ran him up a thorn tree. While I have read accounts of elephants being taken with a .22LR (Capstick), others have expressed the sentiment that a .454 and even a .475 Linebaugh were marginally effective in some hunting situations. Yes, Doug Wesson killed moose, elk, and bear with a .357 Mag. He was also promoting it at the time as well. I have taken deer, hogs, cows, and vermin with my .357 mags. At one time, the .357 Mag had the highest one-shot stopping rate with the Federal 125 grain JHP load according to the Marshall-Sanow report. I do believe however, that a 400 grain XTP will most likely take a lot of fight out of someone as well.

It is also true that the .44 Mag has been used to take all huntable land animals over the course of its history. I have both the 6" M-29 and a 6" FA in .475 Linebaugh. If I am going to grab a "versatile" gun, it'll be the FA. It is every bit as easy if not more so than the 29 to pack on my belt. The .475 will throw nearly twice the weight of bullet the 29 can at nearly the same velocity. I have a red squirrel on my wall I took with a .44 Mag cast bullet load. This does not however, make it the most versatile caliber I use.

If one handloads, the versatility of the .44, .45LC., .454, .475 or .500 Linebaugh is augmented. Loads can be developed that run the gamut from mild to barn-burners. However, the .44 can never be as formidable as the .454 of either of the Linebaugh calibers. One can push the 300 grain bullet from the .44mag, but at a tremendous increase in pressure. This results in increased wear and tear on the firearm and shooter. Firearms such as the FA are built to handle these pressures, most shooters give up long before the gun will. I can load my .475 down to 825-850 fps with a 400 grain hard cast bullet and kill anything from mouse to moose. That's going to be rather difficult to exceed in the versatility department.

Given the fact that big game hunting as always a possibility for me, I'll have to stick with the .454 and now even the .475. I'm getting accustomed to shooting it at the same distances I shoot the .454. It may in fact, unseat the .454 as my most versatile round.

Bout time someone stuck up for the 357Max, the Rodney Dangerfield of cartridges! The only reason this cartridge is not recognised for the superbly universal configuration is that the original loadings (Remington) were with too light a bullet (yes dear a 158 gr is too light a bullet) and the original handgun mfr (Ruger) made the cylinder too damn short. The only drawback to this being the universal caliber is that my ears ring for a week when I touch off one of my hunting loads in my old Dan Wesson.

You know Taurus offers a lifetime warrantee on all their guns whether you are the original owner or not? Now that's a warrantee I like..................!

I think I've made up my mind.... Taurus "Raging Bull" 454 Casull 6.5" bbl in Stainless Matte finish... for me spells versatility.

My reasons, after all the great input from the forum members here are:
The feedback from owners has for the most part been excellent on all accounts... quality, accuracy, recoil, customer service.

I like the option of having the 454 power when needed, but I understand I can shoot 45 Colt if I clean the gun before going back to the 454.

This is a tremedous advantage, as I can work up in skill to master more power, and have tons of load options. Also, I like the idea of having a bigger cal. gun to be able to shoot comparable hot 44mg/45 Colt loads comfortably.

I wanted to go .45 cal because of casting for other firearms such as the 45/70, 45 ACP, etc. I can use the molds for multiple uses like I do with the .358 (35 Rem., 357 mag, 38 special, .357 Sig).

Trigger and action smoothness has got to be there. I know I wouldn't be happy with beautiful Ruger, that had a dog for a trigger. All my firearms have great triggers except for my Mini-14, and that's gonna cost money to fix, but I love Ruger with a passion. My #1 300 win mag (circa 1978) has a perfect trigger, w/AAA wood, and is a sub-moa tack driver with Remington Core Lokt 150 grns right off WallyWorlds shelf. I haven't even bothered to reload for it yet.

Size and weight, is right in there, and it is a damn good looking peice except for the ugly red strip on the grip. Much like the Smith, I'd be right at home with using this baby.

Strong double locked up cylinder.

FA's out of my budget. S&W (my love) I'll save for an old 44. mag some day. Rugers trigger question... and some of them not shooting to well, equals extra cost- I don't want to deal with if I had to right now, no matter how awesome they are.

The warrantee... I can buy a nice used Bull, and be covered. Who besides Leupold does that?

Well that's that... until I run into a nice Ruger deal, that I can't pass up.

Happy New Year!... and, it's my 12 year wedding aniversary today.

Marlinlover

Marlinlover, Ruger single action triggers are extremely easy to make match grade. My Super Redhawk came with a trigger that rivaled the best S&W. I never had to touch it. It broke at 2# with no creep right from the factory. (did they make a mistake?) One word of warning; never, ever reduce the mainsprings to lighten trigger pulls unless you use an aftermarket FASTER spring. You will turn a tackdriver into into a dud shooter if you do.

point well taken....

I've read post of guys doing that very thing with a lighter spring.

How much do trigger jobs cost, on the SRH?

There is nothing wrong with Lee stuff, I started out with a Lee anniversary set, and still use many Lee dies. I also like Lee molds. I have a Lee 300 gr 45 mold that a buddy special ordered from Lee with the gc shank milled off, and it drops a ~280 gr ww bullet that has shot well from friends 45's and 454's. Makes me wish I had a 45 to shoot it out of.

In my 480, the 400 gr Lee bullet shoots as accurately as bullets dropped from the Mountain Mold, Balisticast and LBT. In fact, I sold an old 390 gr LBT mold because the Lee shot as accurately. You might want to consider a 330-350 gr gc mold in the future, and Mountain Molds make a mold just the way you want it, at a reasonable price, get the aluminum blocks and steel sprue plate.

Even though i just chose a 454 over a 44mag i would still have to put the 44mag at the head of the pack.
My pet load with my old Ruger SRH was 28.5gr. of h110 behind a 225gr 3/4jacket SWC HP, clocked at over 1750 feet per second over the chrono out of the 9.5" barrel. It produced over 1500 ftlbs of energy and it was one of our most accurate loads as well. Before anyone starts in about loading over max. preasures let me say that we worked up to 30.5 gr of the same powder and it showed no sign of excessive preasure, the only reason we didn't go higher was you couldn't get any more powder in. I hear all the time about what you can load a 45LC too, but i'm here to tell you that you can load the 44mag higher as well in well made handguns. That load would not prove good for large bear as it opens up rather quickly, i did however shoot through a 250lb black bear at 35yrd, but that was in the rib cage. I shot a small 150lb whitetail at 75yrds and it went in the shoulder though the lung cavity and through the opposite shoulder resting against the skin, it had opened up to over 3/4" and exspended all it's energy. I would dare say that it would dispatch a person with only one shot much better than a 357mag. If you wanted to shoot larger game you just have to go to a heavier bullet with a thicker jacket.
Now not everyone will find hot loads pleasant to shoot and if you need something that doesn't kick as bad the next step down would be the 357mag and then if thats to much then go to the 22LR, i shot a 200lb black bear with a 22 singe action revolver and it only took one shot to kill it. And no i don't reccomend hunting black bear with a 22 handgun even though it will work.
Picking one handgun to do it all for one person is easy, but picking one for eveyone else is impossible IMO.

I'll politely suggest you read the front portion of a loading manual. Most have an extremely informative section on pressures developed in cartridges and how these are very hard to determine just by visual inspection. Unless one has the equipment to measure the actual pressure, a person just doesn't have any idea about how far they have gone. There is a very good reason why powder and bullet manufacturers list max loads in their loading manuals. You may get by with overloading a firearm for a while, but if the practice is continued it eventually catches up with the offender. If you are using the Speer bullet, you are 3.5 grains over listed max in the 13th edition Speer manual.

I'd also suggest you go to John Linebaugh's website and read his discussion on pressures developed in the .44 mag and .45 LC cartridges.

Another thing to consider is that overdriving a bullet past it's velocity envelope usually creates damage to the forcing cone of a revolver.

Over the last 27 years that i have been loading 44mag rounds with that load i have put 10's of thousands of rounds through 4 differant Ruger 44mag handguns all of which shot extremely well and held up well.

Never had any sign of excess preasure or problems with the forcing cone. The 44mag preasures are established to cover all firearms chambered in that caliber, as you may well know loads that have blown apart older model 29's have not caused any problems in a SRH or other well made 44mags(well made speaking only in terms of cyl and frame strength)

When they develope newcartridges like the 454 casull and the 445 supermag they use stonger steel or thicker(more meat between chambers and around the chamber) than they push the preasures up to get more vel. They also have to stengthen the case so the primer pocket won't blow out.

And though it isn't the only sign of excessive preasure you will find that the primer begins to flatten out(and primer did begin to flatten as we tested 240gr loads with 30.5 gr of h110 powder) as preasures reach the shootable limits in a given handgun and each gun is differant. Based on the limits set on the 44mag cartridge and the structure of the Ruger SRH i am and was well within the saftey of that firearm or as the Aussies would say "No worries".

(Oh and that is 4 gr over the speer #13 as they have 24.5 listed and i don't reccomend the load for anyone else as it isn't and never has been a reccomended load by any bullet or powder manufacturers. I will also say that the more stress you put on your firearm the quicker it will wear out.

Makes me wonder how my new 454 SBH will hold up even with the new alloys.)

By the way the reading on the John Linebaugh's website is quite interesting, thank you for bringing it up.

BER007
I'll agree with you on the 45 Colt being the most versital.
I just traded for my sixth 45 Colt, not including my 45 Colt Rossi lever action.
A buddy and I get busy each winter and cast buckets full of 255 grain and 300 grain bullets to feed our revolvers. Then get busy with the Dillon and load up thousands of rounds.
Jim

I'd have to qualify the question a little more: hunting what? Small to medium game: .357 Magnum, Big Game: .44 Magnum. Both rounds have a wide variety of bullets available just about anywhere, as well as loaded ammo. They are both easily reloaded for. There a lot of pistols and carbines chambered for them, so you have a good choice as to type of platform to launch it from. For the general populace, I would have to say that the .357 has the edge as it generates less recoil, is easier to learn to shoot, and 38 Specials can be found everywhere for target shooting, plinking, or training new shooters. Downloaded factory .44s are not too common that I have seen, and .44 Special is not as easily found as it used to be.

Theoretically a Freedom Arms 454 Casull with a belt gun length barrel and spare cylinders in 45 Colt and 45 ACP would cover all my bases and then some. As it is the 45 Colt, 44 magnum, and 357 magnum have all done whatever I have asked of them. Forced to choose I'd probably take the 44 magnum in the S&W M629 Mtn. Gun. Good hunting! McB

I don't have the most experience is the world, just in this room, unless my wife comes in! I have used hollowpoint bullets in .41 Mag and .44 Mag on deer, and cast bullets in .44 Spl and .45 Colt on larger stuff. Can't say with the same bullet placement they work any differently. Bullet choice and bullet placement seem to be the key. A .357 Magnum with very heavy premium bullets seems to penetrate well on dangerous game, if Phil Shoemaker the gun writer can be believed. The cartridge seems to work well on deer with JHPs on lung shots and heavier soft points or cast bullets if bones need to be broken. I also hear the .45 ACP does deer pretty well with JHPs and match 230 grain round nose! Full metal jackets aren't legal here in Tennessee, but evidently a small or non-existent flat point don't keep some of these bullets from working. My most versatile handgun caliber is the one that shoots shot shells, cast bullets, and jacketed bullets at any velocity and any nose shape. This limits my choices to .357 Mag, .44 Mag, .45 Colt and .45 Auto Rim. I lean toward a double action revolver just for the single action trigger, ease of mixing rounds in the cylinder for different purposes, and feeding reliability. An automatic can't be cycled past a shot shell or JHP to a hard cast or solid bullet next in line. I've never used more than two rounds hunting for one animal, so a five or six round cylinder seem enough. My 5 shot J frame .38 Special used to be the only armament of many detectives, otherwise they used a sawed off shotgun. I even stooped to a 5 shot .44 Spl Charter Arms for concealed carrry way back when. No second shots on deer have been necessary, so far. Only a big pig and a water buffalo required a second shot for me. The most versatile choice is the one you'll carry and practice with to maximize it's versatility. My sentimental favorite is any 6" S&W N frame revolver. The S&W 629 stainless .44 Mag is my long term favorite, plenty of power, versatile loadings in factory format, great handload from mild to wild, good weather resistance, easy to pack in a good shoulder holster. My Ruger Redhawk 5 �" gets the heavy .45 Colt loads.

Fire - In - The - Hole........!



I got home with Mr. Casull late last night, 8-3/8" Raging Bull,



and you know I had to rip off a few anyway...



Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claws-454Casull 300gr, $43.95 a box of 20 (got em to through them in on the deal).



(on the box) Velocity: 1630 fps



Muzzle energy: 1760 foot pounds





I shot at a stump, about 36" in diameter. The blast was tremendous. It



litterly echoed through the canyon, like thunder... for what seemed at least



10 seconds after each shot....



The fire burst out front was impressive, but the recoil was not bad, not bad at all. Damn sure felt like someone let off a bomb- 5 times.....



I've never shot anything that powerful in a handgun. Today, I looked at the stump,

...the rounds penetrated right through....



Man, what a thrill...

Now, you said VERSATILE and NOT "effective". Right? So, what about the .22 long rifle?

Hmmmm?

Jim in Idaho

Yes Jim I've had my 454 SRH CCW'd many of time whats so hard about it besides Jim you like I live in a state where you could just strap it on and go so what's the problem? As for most veristile "hunting pistol" there are three 44,45LC 454Casull. Load them up or down for whatever you want to shoot. They are all proven game getters! Factory ammo who uses Factory ammo anyway? Most serious hunters roll there own and even if you want to spend all kinds of money -all three can be bought -hunting rounds that is.