You NEED the SW 500-4",perfect for double action work.Will shoot a 515gr WFNGC at 1300 fps.

Sean

Another thread got me to thinking about which would be a better choice in a pinch: a SA or a DA big bore revolver. I'm thinking bears, mostly.

It seemed obvious to me at first that a DA would be better; it cycles faster, is faster to reload, and can be fired with one hand more easily.

However, sometimes these types features can have a downside. The ability to fire very fast leads me to believe that most people, when alarmed, may well shoot all 6 shots before they even know it. Also, single actions will not pop open accidentally, whether by impact (dropped) or by (alarmed) user error.

Anyway, I am only conjecturing here. I hope never to gather data first hand. Just curious what you all think.

A single action (Ruger Bisley Vaquero 4-3/4 stainless?) would be sturdier and simpler and on a good day a single action is no handicap. Of course any day you need a back up is probably not a good day. A double action revolver gives you the option of fighting back (quickly) with only one hand. FWIW, my backwoods gun is a S&W 629 Mtn Gun. Good hunting!

I can see a definate advantage to a double action. You could shoot it one handed while the other one was being chewed on. I think a Ruger 480 in the sub nose profile would be great. But the S&W 500 4" would definatley be more gun if you could shoot it one handed.

9.3 - I think you are exaggerating the DA pistols problems and ignoring the SA's issues.

Picture yourself being slapped and rolled around on the ground by a bear while you try to cock a single action pistol and get off an ACCURATE shot. Once that pistol is cocked, you've got a hair trigger situation and a good blow from a bear at the wrong time could cause you to very easily shoot yourself.

I think if you want to wrestle a critter with a pistol in your hand, you would be FAR better off making that pistol double action. It will give you much more positive control of the weapon.

If your worried about burning up your ammo before a bear is on top of you, I suggest you go out and practice making shots accurately and quickly. Learn just how FAST you can shoot and hit. Build this rhythm into your mind and also build the discipline NOT to blow a cylinder full in a puff of smoke. I think with some mental preparation, you'll be able to control yourself.

When I was flight instructing I used to preach to my students that an emergency was any situation that you aren't prepared for. Every emergency I ever faced in my flying career was one I had thought about and practiced for many times. When they came for real, I didn't even get very excited. I just did what I had planned on doing.

What snags most people in the ass with anything is when something they never dreamed of happens to them. Plan ahead! The bear has already thought out his options. Attack, bluff or flee.
Now what are you going to do and how are you going to do it? Having a pistol on your hip won't do you much good if you haven't determined exactly how and when you're going to use it if push comes to shove.

Here's what I chose, Bowen customized Ruger Redhawk in 500 Linebaugh with a 3.5" barrel. Shooting something with this level of recoil DA mode with one hand is not something I would ever really want to do. I'd much rather do that than get chewed on by a bear though. If you can draw the firearm, most likely you will be able to thumb the hammer back while bringing from the holster into play.

I won't say you would never need the DA mode for that first shot, but all things considered, SA mode is a much better way to go. Still nice to have the option though!

When I first thought about it, the DA seemed the obvious answer. However, the more I thought about it, the less obvious the choice became. I tend to feel that the DA is perhaps still on top, but...

My main concerns would be a) human error and b) loss of pistol function. I agree that practice may help, but, I would conjecture, it is just plain impossible to adequately simmulate a charging bear. I think also of Peter Mauser's attention to human error in the deisgn of his control feed action, an advantage (among others) of which was its ability to avoid short stroking the bolt (resulting in a double feed) in unusually stressful situations. This feature he built-in even though it was to be used by well-trained troops.

Regarding revolvers, I would not be surprised at all if many people in a dire circumstance would shoot all their rounds quickly in a panic. We can all deny WE would do this, but I think it is difficult to say for sure how we would react with an unprecedented amount of adrenaline in our systems.

I agree that once the bear is upon you, a DA might be nice, but even then, it could result in a paniced 6 (or however many remaining) shots which could just as likely result in a self inflicted wound.

Regarding failure. I imagine the worst case would be to have no bullets (shoot them all before they are REALLY needed) and/or having them fall out of the gun, rendering it useless. In a stuggle, the bear or a person's desperate hand could open the DA, spilling out any remaining rounds.

Anyway, I am only conjecturing here...

9.3 - Like they say, "Best laid plans of mice and men." Or to put it another way, anything can go south on you.

I think you said you had just bought your pistol? 44 or .41 or both? I don't recall. Whatever it is, just get good with it and hope you never have to use it. Chances are VERY remote that you will. Bear attacks are pretty rare and bears almost never attack a person as a food source.

So what I'm saying is if you find yourself on the receiving end of an attack, it's almost guaranteed because you did something to startle or threaten a bear or her cubs. But I think if you put a pistol bullet into a charging bear, you may have just escalated the incident to a kill or be killed affair. And if a bear really wants to kill you, it won't take him long.

I've never come close to an incident like you are visualizing and probably no one else here has either, so we are all just blowing smoke. Do what you need to do to be comfortable about where you're going. If you can't achieve that level of comfort with a pistol, then you need a rifle.

Be smart and be prepared and your chances of anything ever happening are extremely slim.

DPhillips - that is one outstanding revolver!! can you post data on ammo / loads for the 500 linebaugh - thanks - KMule

Agreed. This is just a thought experiement. Yes, I did just recently buy a 41, a 44, and a 45. However, I have a few other 44s and 45s that I've had for quite some time - just been bitten with the revolver bug again lately. Fun times...

Which ever one you are most used to. I've seen guys shoot a SA pretty fast & as long as your hands aren't too small, one hand use isn't a problem. Either would be better than your hunting knife & better still than your hands.

I carry a 4 5/8"BH loaded w/ 300grWLFP @ 1000fps when I'm in bear country.

HI,


I agree that is one nice gun, how is the wood gribs with the recoil,Kev

Without giving a personal endorsement for either one (SA or DA) I would like to add that in a book by Larry Kelly and J.D. Jones, Larry Kelley tells a story about a brown bear charge that he helped stop with a 44 S&W.
Even though his S&W was of course a DA revolver, he recalled that all 6 shots were fired Single action - he cocked the hammer manualy before each shot.

So if you shoot SA all the time and are used to cocking that hammer, then that is probably what you will do under stress. If you are used to shooting DA, the likewise you will probably just pull the trigger.

The option of SA or DA would not play that big of a deal in my choice. I would choose a gun I had 100% confidence in and 100% success with. I have more experience with Rugers and would probably choose to carry a Ruger, but not because I perceive a weakness or flaw in the DA guns.

Having said that, I did choose a DA for fast action hog hunting. Once I get more experience with it, my opinion on what I would take into bear country may change.

David

I concede that a panicked person might shoot all the rounds in a revolver without taking the time to aim...and ending up with no defense at "crunch time." I simply don't see that as more likely with a DA than a SA. I think adrenalin and panic, working together, will empty either revolver in a heck of a hurry.

As far as how fast you can shoot one over the other...I know a charging bear is coming at you at about 40 miles an hour...darn fast. Assuming the attack starts at 20 to 40 yards, and you've already drawn your weapon, you've probably got time for one, maybe two, well-placed shot...but the momentum of the bear will likely carry him into you, even if you've made a killing shot.

So...SA or DA will provide about the same level of defense, before the bear is upon you. Once the bear is mauling you...then, maybe the DA is an advantage if you get the chance to get the gun between you and the beast and pull the trigger. Thats when a short barrel would be a real advantage.

As others said...practice, practice, practice...then practice some more for any situation you can imagine. When the time comes, that's your best hope for survival.

Hunter, I agree. Bears can go thru the gears and put on a hell of a turn of speed if they want to. I would guess that the majority of bear encounters, the shooter wouldn't have time to empty EITHER DA or SA revolver.

The BEST thing to practice might be bear avoidance.

Bear attacks are normally so fast that I doubt anybody could ever empty a DA before it was on him. I used to carry a Rbh 4 5/8 45 colt but recently switched to a SW 629 4" 44 just because of this very concern. I talked to a guy who has been guiding brown/griz bear hunts and has iether pulled the trigger or was watching it be pulled on over 200 big bears. He said your only chance on successfully using a handgun on a bear is to hit it in the head as it charges or stick the barrel under its chin while it mauls you, he highly reccomends a 12ga loaded with #4 buck. Hit them in the head at 20 yards, the most successfull bear stopper. People get pissed because it ruins the skull but thats better than getting chewed on I guess.

TheBear - You account certainly reflects my attitude about bear attacks and I'm glad where I live about as close as I'm likely to get to a bear attack is if I fall into a cage at a zoo. And I can promise you if I have anything to say about it, putting me in a bear cage is going to be like trying to give a cat a bath.

Quite frankly, if I HAD to go into bear country and take a sidearm with me, I think I would feel safer with a good 1911 45 ACP and some nice hot 230 gr RN bullets.

But a shotgun would for sure be the best bet, although I think I would go with a lot bigger pellets than #4. I'm thinking #2 or BB size. Small enough to still give you lots of projectiles but large enough that hopefully you would get some good penetration. I'd rather ruin his skull than let him ruin MINE.

Single action or double action, no difference. What you want is the longest heaviest gun you can carry. After it is empty you can use it as a club while the bear is chewing on you. A bear at real close range will have you before you are going to shoot much of anything.

Pecos, he ment #4 buck shot not bird shot. I would prefer #000 buck for the penetration, but the pistol will be w/ in reach the shotgun may not?

KmuleinAk,
I'm still working up some loads, but shooting 450 LFN over 29 grains of W296 is working well. 2400 seems to work well with the mid 400 grain loads, from 21-25 grains, accuracy was excellent, but I'm out. I'm set to start working up some 525 grain loads also.

Kev,
The grips in the picture are a little too big for my hands, so I went back to the factory Ruger grips. They aren't bad, but you really need to take any sharp edges off. Recoil of the gun is almost purely straight back, not much muzzle rise at all. It's very quick back on target.

I shot some of Tim Sundles Buffalo Bore loads through it and they are accurate enough for the purpose of this revolver. I've shot the 440's and 525's. Both were fine for accuracy and recoil was very manageable. I did get quite a bit of leading with the 525 grain loads though. I'm not sure, but suspect, that Sundles loads .510" slugs in his ammunition and I've had better luck with slugs sized to .511 or .512".

Personally, I feel the Redhawk frame is about the maximum size of revolver I want to lug around here in Alaska. The short barrel (3.5") really helps packing around.

If you are considering a bear protection handgun, 1.5-2" groups at 25 yards are more than acceptable, and this gun will do that with several loads, day in and day out. I would prefer a barrel 5" or less, rather a long barreled X Frame S&W. Speed getting the revolver into play is a big factor in stopping or turning the charge.

I have been avoiding commenting on this as I have no experience of having been charged by brown bears. I do however hunt in an area that is crawling with them - last year alone I was probably within 40 yards of 20 brownies, and this is not a park. I had one sow with two cubs staring me down from 15 yards at one point.
I carry an Accusport Ruger Bisley Blackhawk in .45 Colt with 300 or 345 gr. hardcast bullets. I have no dreams of being able to stop a brown bear. My self protection pistol is carried crossdraw. The isea is that if a bear does charge me and get me down I can pull it out, stick it in her mouth or her ear and pull the trigger once.
Brown bears will bluff charge. Even if you can see them at a distance it is tough to know what their intentions are until they are very close. If you open up at 30 yards you are killing or wounding a bear that may not have any bad intentions. I might end up a bear happy meal someday, but in the case of brown bears I think this whole idea of a bear defense handgun is BS. Use your head to avoid problems, and if you are so unlucky to have a serious problem, well it is no different that having a moose run outin front of you or any of the other unlucky bad stuff that can happen in day to day life.

I tend to agree with the posts that say it isn't so much what you have, as how you practice. I.E., J.D. & Kelly's experience.
One of my favorite anecdotes comes fron Sheriff Jim Wilson. Maybe on the back page of Shooting Times? It would seem he was in the thick stuff, going after a wounded(?) boar hog. The weapon was a SA revolver, I think in .45 Colt.
Anyway, the boar charged, and he stopped it in the barest nick of time with said SA. After crawling out of the thicket, he was a bit miffed with his pards laughing at him. He didn't seem to think the situation was funny, AT ALL! They finally calmed down, and explained they weren't laughing at his situation, but the fact that it was the first time they had heard a single-action go full auto!
It puts the emphasis on practice, regardless of what you carry.

People proficient with double action revolvers can fire them single action VERY FAST. In fact, there is no "speed penalty" for single action in either gun.



The advantage in my mind is it just makes it easier with a DA for you to keep firing if you get knocked to the ground and the critter is on top of you chewing on your nose.



And keep in mind, when you grip something, you have four fingers around one side of the pistol and only your thumb around the other side. When you take that thumb loose to cock a hammer, this leaves that whole side of your grip sorta swinging in the breeze. At that moment the pistol could be very easily slapped or knocked out of your hand. THEN what you gonna do?

Pecos has it right.Like a big ole boy sitting on your stomach pounding away and like you can remember to cock it?Not a chance,but with a double action all you do is pull the trigger.Much easier especially under stress when the brain ain't working properly.

Jayco.

Hopefully, Jayco, none of us will ever be put to the test on any of this. I'd much rather theorize about all this than ever have to DO any of it.

But it has been my philosophy for many years that the definition of a REAL emergency is anything I didn't prepare for.

I trust now all of us are a bit more mentally prepared for a serious incident regardless of which handgun each of us ultimately chooses. I think we all kicked around some good ideas.