I am looking for info on a 338 that will shot a 300g sierra bullet 2500 to 2600 FPS out of a 16 to 18 inch handgun. I will be using a bolt action.

Crow Mag,

The handgun I have been using for big game hunting the last few years is a custom XP-100 with a 15" Lilja fluted stainless steel barrel.

I wanted a long range hammer for hunting big whitetails here in Montana where a 300 lb buck is relatively common.

I also wanted a round with the bullet weight, energy and trajectory to allow me to engage mature bull elk(1000 lb) at ranges out to +300 yards.

The round I came up with was the WSM case necked up to .338".

I had the barrel cut with a 1-12" rifling twist because I would not be using bullets heavier then 225 and this would stabilize anything up to that.

Load testing was easy. The first two bullets I tried were the 180 anf 200 gr Ballistic Tips. Top loads with the 180 gr pill average 2970 fps with three shot groups at 100 yards rarely going over the 1/2" mark.

The 200 gr BT's ran right at 2865 fps with groups in the 3/4" range.

For your application, the rifling twist would have to be tightened to at least 1-10, at the low velocity, perhaps 1-9, have to ask the barrel maker about that.

I can not say that the 338 WSM would hit 2600 fps out of a 16" barrel but do think it would come damn close to 2500 fps out of a 18" pipe.

Problem with going with a bigger case is that it really does not do much for increased velocity in a shorter barrel.

THe 338 is a hell of a round, last fall I harvested a 350 lb 5x5 mule deer at 317 yards with a single 180 gr Ballistic Tip though the shoulders, worked as well as any rifle could have at that range.

Along with that it has taken two mule deer does for the freezer at 158 and 194 yards, not a test at all.

I did some long range shooting this summer with it and once the hold was figured out and when shooting at a target large enough to target clearly, the 338 WSM ran very well out to +800 yards.

In fact deer size critters would be easy to hit at that range but a clean vital hit would not be as easy.

So that is my vote 338 WSM

Good Luck!

Good Shooting!!!

50

Hi 50
We were out last Sunday shooting 6x8 inch steel plats at 720 yards with a 22BR with a lilja 1 in 12 twist 15 3/4 inch barrel on a XP action. That was a lot of fun so I started thinking about building something that would shoot farther and I am shooting a 338 Lapua IMP in a rifle with the 300g bullet that we shoot out to 2500 yards. I want a pistol that will get me out to 1500 yards. How heavy is your 338 WSM? Do you have a brake on it? Can you shoot a rifle scope on it?
Crow Mag

Crow Mag,

My XP runs right at seven pounds or a tic over. I have Holland quick discharge brake on it and the handgun jumps less them my 221 FB, no kidding. The fireball rolls back in my hand much more then the 338.

I have a Burris 2-7 on it right now but I will be getting a 3-12 burris here soon. I would say that it would be possible to shoot a rifle scope with a good 4" eye relief on it.

Good Shooting!!!

50

CROW MAG;

I THINK THAT THE ONLY WAY YOUR GOING TO GET WHAT YOUR LOOKING FOR IS GOING UP TO THE ULTRA MAG CASE.BUT IF YOU MAKE IT LIGHTWEIGHT PISTOL IT WILL EAT YOU ALIVE WITH OUT A BRAKE.MY XP IN 300RUM WEIGHS 8#LBS WITH OUT A BRAKE AND I GET 2950FPS WITH A 180gr NOSLER BT,190gr HORNADY GOES 2750FPS,220 SERRIA DOES 2650FPS.THIS IS OUT OF MY PISTOL WITH A 16"BARREL.SO IN 338 IT MIGHT GET REAL CLOSE TO WHAT YOU WANT.WITH THE 190gr I WOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM TAKEING A DEER OUT TO 400yds WITH A GOOD REST.

BUT THE 338WSM MAG MIGHT GET YOU CLOSE ENOUGH TO WHAT YOU WANT WITH OUT GOING TO EXTREMES LIKE SOME OF US HAVE.AND FIFTYDRIVER IS THE ONLY ONE TO HAVE ONE IN A XP-100 AND HE KNOWS WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT.

JUST MY TWO CENTS

WADE

Crow Mag,

Handcannon is probably right as far as the Ultra Mag case goes. It probably would get you closer to your velocity goals then the MUCH smaller WSM case.

If your action will handle the full length case and you want to live with the muzzle blast, which all of these big handcannons have a 338 RUM may be just what your looking for.

Here is an example of the performace that a 338 and 300 magnum will do in handgun length barrels.

My 338 WSM will drive a 180 gr pill to 2970 fps using 69.0 gr of RL-15. My bullets are seated very long so do not use this data for all 338 WSM loads.

Handcannons 300 RUM will do the same velocity with the same bullet weight but I assume with about 25-30 grains more powder.

This is because the larger bore of the 338 allows the use of much faster burning powders with produce better velocities in short barrels.

DO NOT BE FOOLED THOUGH! will the initial velocity is basically the same, down range numbers are far in the favor of the 300 RUM.

One only has to look at the B.C. numbers for a 180 gr Ballistic Tip in .308" and .338" to see that the 300 RUM will flat smoke the 338 at extreme range.

The .308" has high B.C. numbers for great down range performance but the larger 338 bore is much more efficient in a shorter barrel.

I have not tested the heavies in the 338 WSM. The 300 gr MK has a B.C. number that is higher then any .308" MK, its just a question of if you can drive them fast enough to stay super sonic to the ranges you want to shoot at.

The 338 RUM will certainly fit in your bolt face with no problems and if you have an XP set up like Handcannons, it will handle the RUM case just fine as well.

If you want true 338 Lapua performance, use the 338-300 RUM wildcat. The last 300 RUM cases I measured for capacity ran a solid 1 gr more then the Norma 338 Lapua brass I loaded for a customer.

The numbers Handcannon is getting with his 300 RUM are truely impressive when you consider the B.C. of the bullets he is driving. Much better then my 338, 180 gr Ballistic Tips.

Good Shooting!!!

50

Fiftydriver
I am thinking that a shortened 338 Lapua 2.5 inch and imp. Take most of the taper out and 35 degree shoulder may push the 250g and 300g 338 bullets near what I want. The BC on the heaver 338 bullets is higher than the 30 cal bullets the 250g is in the .560 to .610 and the 300g I am shooting in my rifle is just over .800. The Rum case would be a lot longer than what I want taking up to much barrel.
Crow Mag

Fiftydriver
I just maid up a 2.5" 338 Lapua imp the H2O capacity is 102g and the full length case holds 118g at 2.70". I weighted a the H2O capacity of a 300 Rum and it holds 113g. How much dose your 338 WSM hold?
Crow Mag

CrowMag,

I just did some case capacity comparisons to see how things stack up.

Generally when I measure case cpacity I use a fine ball powder like H-335. It fills cases very consistent, settles very even and has provided good results when trying to compare one case designs volume with another. If you are trying to figure out a starting load by measuring case capacity, this is not a good method.

Anyway, here are the results I just measured again using H-335 with cases filled to the mouth:

338 WSM: 90.8gr
338 RUM: 122.3gr
300 RUM: 124.2gr
375 RUM: 130.0gr

A 338-300 RUM would hold roughly 127 gr. I do not have a Lapua case to measure but from my notes, the last lot I did measure were basically the same as the 338-300 RUM capacity.

With all that said, it would appear that your shortened 338 Lapua would land in between the 338 WSM and the full length Lapua/338-300 RUM capacity range.

I agree with you that a short case is much a benefit in handgun length barrels, but I am comparing a full length magnum(2.850") with a WSM(2.070") case. This is a different of 0.780" of usable barrel.

In the case of shortening the Lapua(2.700") to 2.500", the differnce is only 0.200" which will result in very little velocity increase and only 0.350 less then the RUM case. In fact with the increased case capacity of the parent case, it will negate any increase in usable barrel gained by the shorter case.

Of course, a shortened and blown out Lapua, especially one that is 2.5" long should come very close to exceeding the parent case capacity, this could be a benefit as well as the sharper shoulder to improve ignition and powder burn in the case.

I quess in my opinion, is the time needed to make cases, wear and tear on a fine barrel for fireforming worth the extra 50 to 100 fps you may get with the exotic wildcat, not to mention die cost and brass price.

Also, it take a fine smith to make a Rem handle a case head that big using a sako type extractor. DO not let any nut do this job, make sure they have done it successfully before.

In my honest opinion, in a barrel length in the length you will be using, 16-18", I do not see a great advantage using 100 gr of powder over 70 gr in the WSM case.

Consider to the bullet you will be using at extreme range and if it will perform at all on game at the velocities it will be traveling. I feel the single best bullet design for hand cannons is the Ballistic Tip, and with the new Accubonds, they serve well on elk size game as well, along with good B.C. numbers and reliable expansion at quite low velocities.

Just a few things to think about and throw out if you want.

Good Luck!!

50

I just had a friend do a velocities estimate on quickload for the full length 338 Yogi (338 lapua imp) with the 300g bullet in a 18" barrel the program came up with using RE22 at 90g at 2480 FPS.

Crow Mag,

Just ran some numbers off the numbers you posted. I used 2500 fps jusst to keep thinks simple, this is what one ballistic program produced, quite impressive!

300 yard zero
Yards Drop Velocity Energy
100 +5.3 2395 3821
200 +5.9 2289 3492
300 0.0 2187 3186
400 -13.2 2086 2899
500 -34.4 1988 2634
600 -64.4 1893 2388
700 -104.1 1801 2162
800 -154.6 1713 1954
900 -216.8 1627 1764
1000 -292.3 1546 1592

If yo are not used to looking at extreme range numbers, these would not look all that great, but from doing alot of extreme range rifle and handgun shooting, these numbers are extremely impressive for a handcannon.

Trajectory numbers are pretty steep but this is due to the low initial velocity but with the heavy bullet, with high B.C., velocity and energy do very well at even 1000 yards. Over 3/4 of a ton of energy at 1000 yards, not to bad in my mind.

Hell if your going for the gusto, cut your barrel to the 338-416 Imp and get an honest +2550 fps.

Seriously though, it would be a hell of a serious long range handgun. Imagine a 225 gr Accubond with a B.C. of .550 at around 2800 fps or maybe more.

Good SHooting!!!

50

50
You are right on with what I was getting with my program at sea level. I could also go with the 505 Jeffrey's IMP or a 408 CT necked down to 338. In a rifle I am considering the bigger case. This is what I come up with at and elevation of 8000" and 30 Degrees 0 at 300
Range Velocit Energy Drop
(yards) (ft/sec)(ft-lbs)(moa)
0 2502.9 4172.7 ---
100 2417.5 3893.0 4.9
200 2334.0 3628.7 2.7
300 2252.4 3379.3 -0.0
400 2172.5 3143.9 -3.0
500 2093.9 2920.4 -6.2
600 2016.7 2709.2 -9.6
700 1941.3 2510.2 -13.2
800 1867.6 2323.2 -17.0
900 1795.7 2148.0 -21.0
1000 1725.9 1984.1 -25.3
1100 1658.0 1831.2 -29.8
1200 1592.3 1688.8 -34.5
1300 1528.6 1556.4 -39.5
1400 1467.5 1434.4 -44.8
1500 1408.9 1322.2 -50.5
That is why I want the velosity with the 300g bullet

Actually this is sscoyote-- not XPhunter. Somethings gotten mixed up herabouts. Any way have you considered looking at the .376 Steyr case? I'm not sure of the capacity, but i believe it's short and stocky-- maybe somewhere between the WSM case and the longer cases you guys are talking about. Maybe the most efficient of all the overbores being presented??

The .376 Steyr case is a bottleneck design 2.35" long with a short, shoulder of approximately 17 degrees and a slightly rebated rim of .494" diameter. The case diameter is .501" at the head and .474" at the base of the shoulder. Max velosity 2388 fps with 300 grain bullets with a 24" barrel
Crow Mag

[ 11-27-2003, 07:20: Message edited by: crow mag ]

SSCOYOTE,

The 376 is a neat round but does not have the case capacity of the WSM. Basically it is nothing more then a 284 Win case stretched about .3".

I was thinking about building a large volume 6mm wildcat on this case with a 35 degree shoulder and the side walls straightened a bit but after seeing what my 6mm-284 was doing to the VLD match grade bullets at top velocities, I decided there was no need for more speed until bullets are built with high B.C. to handle +3600 fps.

For this application, the 376 has to little case capacity for the goals wanted.

Good Shooting!!!

50

Here is a pic of the case I am thinking about using



exit wound using the 300g bullet at 1225 yards with a velosity of 1650 FPS and energy of 1831 LBS



[ 12-01-2003, 04:27: Message edited by: crow mag ]