I have some questions that relate to several recent threads in this forum and in Big bores.

How much velocity is needed for a defensive hunting handgun round?

Personally, I don't think that there is a big difference between 43 calibre (.429") and 45 calibre (.451"), but the velocities of different cartridges vary considerably. So the question becomes:
is 900 fps effective for stopping a bear? Does it provide enough penetration, or is 1400 fps required? In either case I assume flatnose, non-expanding rounds for maximum penetration on a large animal.

Coupled with the velocity question is a noise question. I assume that a sub-sonic round will be softer and possibly not-painful like the hyper-sonic rounds. Twenty years ago I sold a 44 magnum because it was too loud. I had it as a hunting backup firearm and it was effective on a warthog, but it was just too loud when loaded with 250 grain bullets at 1400-1500 fps.

I never tried loading down to 900fps. If I wanted such a round I would probably choose a calibre with sub-sonic ballistics, maybe a 45 ACP. But does a 45 ACP have the penetration to serve as a backup? Which brings us back to the original question, what velocity is necessary in a handgun in order to serve as a backup?

A lot has to do with the powder one is using.

some years ago I had some 357mag Win factory 158g ammo I also was loading some 158gr swc.

The win had way more muzzle blast and flash when I shot them over the crony they were 100 feet slower then my hand loads.

How much vel is needed that a good question. I like a 1000fps plus. but with my 45acp I need 185s to get that. a good jhp in the 230 range also have good rep.

Remember bullets that are made for self defense against humans well not give you the best on larger animals.

For woods running I load a 250 gr hard cast swc at 875fps in my 45acp lots of penetration. Buffalo bullets load them to over 900.

That said I normally carry my 41 mag with a 210 at 1040fps a light Ti ported revolver. It has had no trouble shooting through the heads of several bears from 235 to 500lbs. But theses were at very close range 4 or 5 feet or mere inches.

In my 44 mag I also load a 315wfn at between 1180 and 1300 depending on the gun 1180 out of a 4 in and very close to 1300 out of a 7.5 same load max load of H110.

But then I have a Taurus 44 tracker I load the 315 to just over a thousand. The H110 load above is just to much of a good thing in a 30 oz revolver. I believe that this load well shoot through most bears

Generally loading a 44 mag down to around 900 well give you a very pleasant load to shoot. I load a lead swc 240 at 950 and can shoot it all day.

quote:

Generally loading a 44 mag down to around 900 well give you a very pleasant load to shoot. I load a lead swc 240 at 950 and can shoot it all day.

Fair enough, but how does 900fps penetrate?

They well shoot through a deer side to side at 50 yards.

From what I read most well give 18 to 24 inches in ballistic gelatin.

For some one who like high vel 416 loads what is a mere 315 gr at 12 or 13 hundred out of a 44 mag.

I only like my 350s out of my 416 at 2450.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
They well shoot through a deer side to side at 50 yards.

From what I read most well give 18 to 24 inches in ballistic gelatin.

For some one who like high vel 416 loads what is a mere 315 gr at 12 or 13 hundred out of a 44 mag.

I only like my 350s out of my 416 at 2450.

the problem with the 44 RMag revolver, Redhawk, was the noise. It was comfortable to shoot with hearing protection on. But whenever fired without hearing protection one would hear that highpitched whine that says, 'you better stop this'. Rifles don't do this, especially 25" 416's.

Yes, I like to use a cartridge for its natural capacity. So for hyper-sonic loads, I would choose a 44RMag, 454 in a double-action Ruger, or larger calibre. But I don't have hunting ear-gear yet. Meanwhile, I ask myself, what about sub-sonic loads? Do they penetrate enough to be reliable against bears? Do subsonic loads avoid that high-pitched whine?

The general wisdom seems to center around loading a heavy bullet (300gr or larger) to 1150-1250. The compromise being control of the handgun versus velocity/penetration. Muzzle blast isn't in the picture in most conversations. If you need it, you no longer care how loud it is.

If muzzle blast is important, my thought would be to compensate for reduced velocity and shoot the largest bullet available. Something like a 340gr slug out of a 44 mag, or 360gr slug out of a 454. I would think that at 900 fps, these could be adequate. i.e. keep the momentum of the bullet as high as possible.

Test it out against conventional wisdom loads and see if it meets your needs.

Jeremy

I think a 44 or 45 cal 230 to 255 gr hard cast SWC would penetrate a bears skull, baised on testing I have done.

My thoughts are, if attacked by any animal, only a brain or spine shjot will save you from injury and or death.

If noise is a concern I would load with Unique or some similar medium handgun powder vs something like 2400 or H-110.

However, I can say, after being in several high pressure shootings, you will not notice, or be bothered by, the noise of your shots, when under duress...

quote:

If noise is a concern I would load with Unique or some similar medium handgun powder vs something like 2400 or H-110.

However, I can say, after being in several high pressure shootings, you will not notice, or be bothered by, the noise of your shots, when under duress...

Thanks. Yes, a faster handgun powder rather than the slowest ones might help.

Obviously, of course, I would not be concerned about noise in a crisis. The problem is all of the non-crisis shooting and sometimes touching one off without ears on.

quote:

Obviously, of course, I would not be concerned about noise in a crisis. The problem is all of the non-crisis shooting and sometimes touching one off without ears on.

Why would one be shooting any handgun in a non crisis with out good hearing protection.

My Ti 41 with 4inch ported barrel is very very loud. I refuse to shoot it with out good protection in practice.

But I can tell you when a 500lb wounded bear is chewing on the hounds and your muzzle is a couple inches away from the bears ear one doesn't even hear it.

With large bears and low end loads in mind, I would think larger caliber...475 or 500.

I believe you are talking about two issues that are exclusive of each other. Noise for a back up gun should not be in the decision process in my opinion. When it comes to a back up piece for bears you want the most powerful handgun you can handle with precision. Speaking from experience some of it recent when you come up on a 800 lb brown bear you start to think that anything you have is not enough. You dont care how loud it is.
Shooting at a range or such you should be wearing hearing protection even wih a 22LR.
My wife carries a S&W 329 with 300gr hardcast at 1200fps ever time she leaves the house, but we live in Bear central.
Just my 2 cents worth.

Not getting into the "how much gun/how much velocity" issue, just some data.

Some penetration results in wet soaked newspaper.

44 mag, 310 gn 72% meplat hardcast lead bullet
754 fps vel. 18" penetration in wetpack

44 mag, 250 Keith hardcast lead bullet
1193 fps. 24" penetration in wetpack

44mag, 250 Keith hardcast lead bullet
1430 fps, 18" penetration in wetpack

45 colt, 260 Keith hardcast lead bullet
1025 fps. 23" penetration in wetpack

500 Linebaugh, 525 gn Cast performance brand bullet
925 fps, 50" penetration in wetpack.

Thanks, Kaytod

That 500 Linebaugh looks nice with 50" penetration and 900fps. Was it about the same on the ears as the others, or maybe less?

quote:

Originally posted by kaytod:
500 Linebaugh, 525 gn Cast performance brand bullet
925 fps, 50" penetration in wetpack.

Now is it clear why so many of us use this bullet in our .500 Linebaughs??

Don't forget the variable of barrel length in the equation. Blast and noise are going to be more severe with a 3 inch barrel than a 6 or 8 inch.

416,

Not having as much time with the 500/525gn combination as with 475 Linebaugh's. I will use it as an example instead.

Using the same gun and a 400 grain bullet from the LEE mold.

5.0gn Trailboss, 611 fps, 25" wet paper

The report is not more than a loud "POP". It can be shot without hearing protection without discomfort.

12.0gn Unique, 1084 fps, 39" wet paper.

The report is a "BANG". If shot without hearing protection, it will make your ears ring, albeit not painful for one shot, but you'll have enough real quick.

H-110 at 26.0gn (?? I think ) ran 1350 ish fps and went about 44 inches in wet paper.

These will make you ring and cause a great amount of discomfort if you don't have hearing protection.

Compare these to the 375 H&H, 300 gn Nosler Partition, 2386 fps, 21” penetration in wet paper.


Noise is one of the problems of muzzle pressure. It can be attenuated by selecting a powder that consumes more thoroughly by it's time of release behind the clearing bullet. However this is a tradeoff, as GENERALLY it means you have a powder with a faster burn rate. Then you will hit a pressure limitation before you arrive at a maximum velocity.

I have found some things play into a more shootable handgun.

Larger bores seem to have a less piercing report as they can do equal amounts of work at less chamber pressure. They have larger bore capacity wherewith to use the powder. The combination translates into lower muzzle pressures/ noise. Now if you want to load the big ones up, they will be just as noisy as the smaller bores bearing in mind that you are also doing far more work. Instead of shooting a 44 mag with a 250 grain bullet at 1350 fps, you can now shoot a 400-450 grain bullet at that speed, and you will still have a noisy gun.
Looking at my descriptions of the noise levels above, compare this to it. A 38 WCF with 29.0 of H-110 and a 180 XTP Hornady, is loud enough it makes your nuts hurt. It has a pitch that is piercing and painful. I shot at a coyote on a calm winter day with fresh snow. ( without ear protection ) My ears rang for over 36 hours. NOWADAYS, I NEVER SHOOT IT WITHOUT HEARING PROTECTION…. EVER!

Thank you, Kaytod.

That is very helpful information, exactly the kind of experience that I was hoping to hear.

I hear you on that coyote. If and when I get a 'camp gun' I will need to learn to carry ear protection or to wear protective hunting ears. Thirty years ago I would wear protection doing load development or practice, but in the bush shooting an animal or an unlucky rock/tree I learned about youthful folly. So "camp gun" means wearing hunting ears. Period.
Even with some of those nice sub-sonic loads.

It sounds like I would want a 5.5" Ruger over a 2.5" "Alaskan", in a revolver.
How about a pistol. Can a 5", 45 auto be loaded with heavy bullets that will reliably cycle and be down in the 'pop' range?

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How about a pistol. Can a 5", 45 auto be loaded with heavy bullets that will reliably cycle and be down in the 'pop' range

One would have to change the recoil spring then test to make sure it works.

A 315gr at 800 fps out of my 5.5 in 44 redhawk is a nice mellow load. more so out of the 7.5

The 4" Redhawk is a nice choice also.

In the 1911 45 Auto, I shoot a 255 gn hardcast flat point over 5.5 Unique for 750 fps. It then becomes an original 45 Colt/45 Schofeld and still functions in my gun with a 16 lb stock spring. If you have "loose" wrist tension, you may have to drop a pound of spring, but if your wrist tension is very stiff, you can go up to an 18-18.5.
Seating depth on the 45 Auto is critical. To achieve the desired feeding and OAL it is necessary to deeply seat some bullets, which get into the case web and make a bulge that won't chamber. Depending on the bullet, about a 265 WFN is the heaviest that won't get into the web, but you better make sure it will feed due to the nose profile.

Todd,

I went to 14.0 grains of HS-6 behind a 200 LFN in the .38-40 so I wouldn't be blowing ear drums.

they have earplugs and muffs to wear while testing...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
they have earplugs and muffs to wear while testing...

You don't say… I'll have to look into that, what a novel idea!

These are hunting loads and I don't always wear ear plugs while deer hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by 22Rimfire:
I believe you are talking about two issues that are exclusive of each other. Noise for a back up gun should not be in the decision process in my opinion. When it comes to a back up piece for bears you want the most powerful handgun you can handle with precision. Speaking from experience some of it recent when you come up on a 800 lb brown bear you start to think that anything you have is not enough. You dont care how loud it is.
Shooting at a range or such you should be wearing hearing protection even wih a 22LR.
My wife carries a S&W 329 with 300gr hardcast at 1200fps ever time she leaves the house, but we live in Bear central.
Just my 2 cents worth.

My experience is the same although I haven't tangled with any Brown Bears. They scare me too much.

I would think that a .375 or a .416 RemMag would feel like a 22 if a Brownie is one his/her way at you. Hitting them is the hard thing and the muzzle blast wouldn't be heard as mentioned.

A couple of points.
Ammo today has added flash and sound suppresser chemicals added.
Handgun ammo , especially flat nose, slows down Very quickly.
Bullet construction makes a large difference .I used to use the old Speer 225 SWHP in my 44 mag.The core was IIRC 3% antimony in lead A great penetrator , nmo overexpansion there. I only recoverd 1 bulleton deer. Now I use the 225 Corbon [225 all copper Barnes] with excellent penetration ! The more a bullet expands the less it penetrates.

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
especially flat nose, slows down Very quickly.

I'm not following you here. Are you talking about in flight? In flesh, nothing works better from a penetrative standpoint than a flat-nosed profile.

WFN bullets penetrate like crazy case in point a 315gr WFN at 1300 took a 250lb black bear in the chest and exited out the rear ham 40 some inch of penetration.

I've shot a old mod blackhawk .30 carbine for yrs. H110 12 or 12.5gr w/110's. One day butchering Dad put a .22mag in the horn cavity of a 1200# beef. It wouldn't get where we could reach it with a rope to pull it out of the pen. I walked around the barn and there he was about 15'. I just up and blasted him with the .30. We didn't get a full gallon of blood clear to the point of quartered meat. When I asked why. The butcher gave me hell for "killing him too dead with the g/damned cannon pistol, you stopped his heart too so the blood is in the meat". Later he gave me the bullet he'd found embedded in the back half the Atlas joint, 11" penetration. I've also blown cow elk heads to mush with the same load.

I've since gone to a 7.5" .45 LC in a new mod Blackhawk. My loads vary by bullet wts only using the same charge of 20gr H 110. I've found a hard cast 250gr SWC will go clear thru a 10" pine tree every time. For elk hunting carry I load it with 330gr Hammerhead FP. Same charge. I've found that's about as heavy a load as I enjoy shooting many of with that bullet. IIRC the books list 26gr as max for this bullet wt and powder. I can't handle that heavy a load well enough and sure don't enjoy shooting them.

All my cast bullets are hard enough I can't scratch with a thumb nail. I've not killed anything or finished anything up with the .45 Colt yet. I have done a lot of shooting practice with it as I'd like to know I could kill an elk if my rifle isn't within reach as has happened a couple times. I wouldn't shoot at one over 75-100yds unless I had full confidence in hitting where intended. That's why I burn these bullets by the 2 gallon buckets full every year. As we've all been told" Practice! Then practice even more.

An old retired sheriff told me: "IF you can't do it with a blackhawk .45 Colt you'd better get a rifle".

I never fired this one w/o hearing protection yet. I do know that 30 carbine IS a blaster with those loads Plumb whicked. I'd fully expect the 45 would be much worse as twice as much powder in those.

A bit OT here. But, had a g/f along shooting our M 38 Smiths and light cast plinkers. While I was "practicing" with the 45. She asked if she could "shoot the big gun". Sure. She'd been doing great with the .38's so I never paid much atttention to what she was doing. Til just as she set it off I noticed she had bent elbows and just lightly holding it. "I hollered" "Hold that sobBOOOMM! Whack! The bridge hit her at the hairline on the forehead and cut clear to the skull. Took six stitches. Talk about BLOOD running down her face. That scared the hell out of me. I never would have guessed she wasn't holding that thing tight. I just happened to glance up or wouldn't have known what happened. Make damned sure anyone shooting your heavy loads knows they WILL HURT YOU.

Wish you all well,
George

It's been touched on but powder and load has a lot to do with noise. For example in my 45colt a 250 xtp loaded to the hilt with H110 or 2400 has a good case of ear ringing if shot with out protection. Load a 350 penn bullet over a stiff charge of H110 and the noise level is not even close. Same powder different bullet weights. HS-6 in a 45,475,or 500jrh is not as loud and black bears have a real fear of results of being hit. Placement in defense situations whether human or critter play a more relevance to the out come than the noise made. However practice with what you intend to use, and in the heat of the moment you'll probably not even know how many times you shot.