I know this has been discussed before but!
Why is it that a 475 linebaugh with a 400+gr bullet at 13-1400 fps
Great for Dangerous game but a 45-70 rifle with a 405gr bullet at 1900fps
Barely marginal for the same game?
It appears to me that some people in the rifle world only believe that a something like a 460 weatherby is the minimum
Caliber for Brown Bears. I hunt with both and have seen some
So called inadequate calibers take down some very large animals.
I have hunted with a 45 colt with 325gr hard cast with great results on
600lb Bears with complete pass throughs as well as 45-70's
Up to 416 Rem and lots in between on just about evertyhing in NA. When the bullet hits its mark the job is done!
Sorry for the rant

quote:

Originally posted by 22Rimfire:
I know this has been discussed before but!
Why is it that a 475 linebaugh with a 400+gr bullet at 13-1400 fps
Great for Dangerous game but a 45-70 rifle with a 405gr bullet at 1900fps
Barely marginal for the same game?
It appears to me that some people in the rifle world only believe that a something like a 460 weatherby is the minimum
Caliber for Brown Bears. I hunt with both and have seen some
So called inadequate calibers take down some very large animals.
I have hunted with a 45 colt with 325gr hard cast with great results on
600lb Bears with complete pass throughs as well as 45-70's
Up to 416 Rem and lots in between on just about evertyhing in NA. When the bullet hits its mark the job is done!
Sorry for the rant

Spot on!

quote:

When the bullet hits its mark the job is done!Sorry for the rant

Very true hitting the mark can be the problem.

I have always said handgun hunting is fun but if one is very serious about killing something one uses a rifle.

P dog - 'i have always said handgun hunting ..."

Well, I've been handgun hunting for nigh on 40 years, now. Everything from rabbits to giraffe, with a lion thrown in for balance. I'm pretty serious about hunting, but have only used a single-shot rifle (or any other) once in the last 25 years. I'd guess that qualifies as "very serious", wouldn't you agree?

Yeah, I too would have to say I am pretty serious as well. I only hunt with a rifle when I have to. Marksmanship varies person to person and this applies to both rifle and handgun shooters. That said, handguns are definitely harder to master. I just wish folks wouldn't impose their limitations on those who have actually and seriously taken the time to become proficient with a handgun. JMHO.

Sadly cannot contribute any practical experience of using handguns on game as here in the Uk hand guns are banned, and can't even shoot with them at paper. But we get a similar argument with 243 on deer. Lots think they are too small, but provided you know the limitations of your chosen weapon and then put the bullet in the right place you will take game humanely. If you are not proficient and don't get in close whether it is with a sling shot, bow, handgun, shotgun or rifle and don't put the bullet in the right place you have got wounded and potentially cross animals on your hands and that is not good. If we are go to shoot something it's our absolute moral duty to do it quickly and humanely.

A 32acp is the standard humane killer for big animals -works well on horses, steers etc from the range of 2ft with a bullet between the eyes. For that matter a 22lr works as well - but if the range is more than a couple of feet, you need something with a bit more oomph

This is the issue I have. A rifle is not for a fact a better tool for the job!
If I shoot animal with a 45 caliber 325gr slug from a revolver and get a pass through
How can a rifle be a better tool? There is no more that can be done after this.
Rifle only hunters appear to believe that you have to shoot a bullet
At the speed of light to be effective. And numerous people have put down on a 45-70 as
Being too slow and marginal for some game.
I shoot rifles, handguns and bows! I like em all!
I even have a 45-70 barrel on an Encore pistol.
I prefer to shoot my handguns though.

Not so if you are a tunnel rat...or engaging in close-quarters battle in a building. There are times when a handgun is king.

No, the rifle is not always the better tool.

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
Either will get the job done.The facts of life are a Rifle is BETTER TOOL!!!Ask any Grunt that has been in Combat if they would rather have a handgun than a rifle.Nuff said.OB

I found my revolver to be the better tool when the grizz came in on me working the moose kill.

quote:

I found my revolver to be the better tool when the grizz came in on me working the moose kill.

A firearm you have with you is always better then the one left at camp.

Rifles are easier to shoot accurately for most people then handguns.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

I found my revolver to be the better tool when the grizz came in on me working the moose kill.

A firearm you have with you is always better then the one left at camp.

Rifles are easier to shoot accurately for most people then handguns.

I could never have gotten the rifle into action as fast as the revolver under the conditions, I had a rifle with me but the hand gun was the better tool in this case.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

I found my revolver to be the better tool when the grizz came in on me working the moose kill.

A firearm you have with you is always better then the one left at camp.

Rifles are easier to shoot accurately for most people then handguns.

I could never have gotten the rifle into action as fast as the revolver under the conditions, I had a rifle with me but the hand gun was the better tool in the is case.

Or out of reach

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

I found my revolver to be the better tool when the grizz came in on me working the moose kill.

A firearm you have with you is always better then the one left at camp.

Rifles are easier to shoot accurately for most people then handguns.

I could never have gotten the rifle into action as fast as the revolver under the conditions, I had a rifle with me but the hand gun was the better tool in the is case.

Or out of reach

Personally I can't get a rifle into action at close quarters as fast as I came a revolver and I dam sure can't in a tent.

I use both and a rifle in my experience is definitely not always the best tool.

quote:

Personally I can't get a rifle into action at close quarters as fast as I came a revolver .

So may variables to this it is hard it say what would be faster.

My main thing is.
Why does the barrel length have any bearing on the effectiveness of a firearm?
If the bullet gets complete penetration from a handgun how can a rifle be ANY BETTER?
JM2CW

quote:

Originally posted by 22Rimfire:
My main thing is.
Why does the barrel length have any bearing on the effectiveness of a firearm?
If the bullet gets complete penetration from a handgun how can a rifle be ANY BETTER?
JM2CW

That the key IF the bullet hits the right spot

Rifles in most of the time are easier to hit with

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by 22Rimfire:
My main thing is.
Why does the barrel length have any bearing on the effectiveness of a firearm?
If the bullet gets complete penetration from a handgun how can a rifle be ANY BETTER?
JM2CW

That the key IF the bullet hits the right spot

Rifles in most of the time are easier to hit with

Hitting the correct spot is a given and applies equally to a rifle or any type of firearm.

I believe the correct answer is....it depends. For most folks, most of the time a rifle is the better choice, or tool if one wants to use that choice of word.

For those proficient with a handgun I pretty much agree with 22. I believe a bit over 50% of the big game I've taken has been with BP cartridges and cast bullets and I don't believe any have exceeded 1400 fps. Most run between 1200 and 1300. Admittedly they are all shoot fairly heavy for caliber bullets. Obviously they're slow, comparatively speaking, and the bullets are what one could I believe honestly call "old technology". I've killed a few deer with a 45 Colt and one with a 44 Mag. with 255 and 240 gr. cast bullets, respectively, and neither exceeded but a bit over 1100 fps. The deer were just as dead and did not travel any farther.

I believe 22's main point is that 3000+ fps and 2 dollar a piece bullets are not needed to kill big game. Those who scoff at what they see as anemic cartridges, and those of us who use them, are too often showing their lack of experience with other than high intensity cartridges. In addition, as several have said, the bullet must be placed correctly. Poor shot placement with any cartridge is just that, a poor shot and should be avoided at all costs.

Before it's brought up I want to say that if I were hunting really dangerous game I would prefer a rifle but can promise that if legally allowed a heavily loaded revolver would be on my hip.....as it usually is.

It appears to me there are some individuals that don't have faith in their marksmanship with a handgun.
And that is fine, you should know your limitations and work within them.
I have heard many people claim that they shot this animal at this distance with this rifle.
I have invited them over to my place to put bullet where their mouth is.
I have a range set up with steel plates from 25yds to 400 yards in sizes from 2" to 30" diameter.
I have a 4" at 300Yards and a 6" at 400 yards for the gifted to try.
Most of the time when they see the 400 yard target they cannot believe how far it actually is!
I regularly shot at all of these ranges with various weapons.
I keep my revolver shots to my comfort range when hunting.
I have my self imposed limits and stay within them as others should.
But don't put down on a given weapon just because you personally cannot hit with it, others may be able to.
JM2CW

quote:

It appears to me there are some individuals that don't have faith in their marksmanship with a handgun. And that is fine, you should know your limitations and work within them.

Very true I shot my handguns out to 300 yards on my 600yard range.

Having trained hundreds of people in the use of both the fact is rifles are easier to hit with then hand guns for most people.

Same here p dog. When we were raising cattle I had a 500 yard range on the farm and my oldest son and I regularly shot our open sighted revolvers the whole distance. Hits on an 18" X 24" steel target were not as regular at 500 yards as at 300 yards but we did it often enough to know it could be done with pretty fair regulaity. Neither of us would think of taking a shot like that at game but it was great fun and a heck of an education. Using the old Elmer Keith sitting position with your back against something and your knees drawn up then resting your wrists on your knees a 4 inch target at 100 yards didn't stand a lot of a chance, given good loads. 'Course that was 25 years ago and I could see a lot better.

I don't think we have been talking Combat Situations here.
This has been about hunting and why some think handguns are inferior or inadequate.
I also served quite a few years in the Army.
And if I were in a combat situation I would probably choose an M60 or M2 over a 1911. But we are not and do not have to worry about return fire from game animals!

JM2CW

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:

quote:

Originally posted by 22Rimfire:
It appears to me there are some individuals that don't have faith in their marksmanship with a handgun.
And that is fine, you should know your limitations and work within them.
I have heard many people claim that they shot this animal at this distance with this rifle.
I have invited them over to my place to put bullet where their mouth is.
I have a range set up with steel plates from 25yds to 400 yards in sizes from 2" to 30" diameter.
I have a 4" at 300Yards and a 6" at 400 yards for the gifted to try.
Most of the time when they see the 400 yard target they cannot believe how far it actually is!
I regularly shot at all of these ranges with various weapons.
I keep my revolver shots to my comfort range when hunting.
I have my self imposed limits and stay within them as others should.
But don't put down on a given weapon just because you personally cannot hit with it, others may be able to.
JM2CW

I hunt with a handgun or bow 90% of the time.Thats my choice.The question asked is what is better a rifle or a handgun.I said a rifle and it is.In the military in which I served two combat tours in Vietnam,no one in a firefight was looking for a pistol.If that was all you had you used it.Tunnel rats were a specialized and not very productive operation because no one had a clue how massive these complexes were.That said, I like to use arms that are more of a challenge,which in no way makes them better.OB

Sargent Major Plumly refused to use an M-16 he used his duty pistol instead the entire fire fight. This has been well documented in the book written by Gen. Hal Moore and Joey Gallaway.

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:

quote:

Originally posted by 22Rimfire:
It appears to me there are some individuals that don't have faith in their marksmanship with a handgun.
And that is fine, you should know your limitations and work within them.
I have heard many people claim that they shot this animal at this distance with this rifle.
I have invited them over to my place to put bullet where their mouth is.
I have a range set up with steel plates from 25yds to 400 yards in sizes from 2" to 30" diameter.
I have a 4" at 300Yards and a 6" at 400 yards for the gifted to try.
Most of the time when they see the 400 yard target they cannot believe how far it actually is!
I regularly shot at all of these ranges with various weapons.
I keep my revolver shots to my comfort range when hunting.
I have my self imposed limits and stay within them as others should.
But don't put down on a given weapon just because you personally cannot hit with it, others may be able to.
JM2CW

I hunt with a handgun or bow 90% of the time.Thats my choice.The question asked is what is better a rifle or a handgun.I said a rifle and it is.In the military in which I served two combat tours in Vietnam,no one in a firefight was looking for a pistol.If that was all you had you used it.Tunnel rats were a specialized and not very productive operation because no one had a clue how massive these complexes were.That said, I like to use arms that are more of a challenge,which in no way makes them better.OB

Sargent Major Plumly refused to use an M-16 he used his duty pistol instead the entire fire fight. This has been well documented in the book written by Gen. Hal Moore and Joey Gallaway.

We picked up AK 47s.So what?One guy out of how many thousands preferred a handgun and that was because M16s were not reliable back then.I be the Sarge would have been way happy with an M-14 .

Just pointing out that "all" did not go for a rifle, not sure how many others but point is and was valid. Blanket statement are rarely ever accurate.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:

quote:

Originally posted by 22Rimfire:
It appears to me there are some individuals that don't have faith in their marksmanship with a handgun.
And that is fine, you should know your limitations and work within them.
I have heard many people claim that they shot this animal at this distance with this rifle.
I have invited them over to my place to put bullet where their mouth is.
I have a range set up with steel plates from 25yds to 400 yards in sizes from 2" to 30" diameter.
I have a 4" at 300Yards and a 6" at 400 yards for the gifted to try.
Most of the time when they see the 400 yard target they cannot believe how far it actually is!
I regularly shot at all of these ranges with various weapons.
I keep my revolver shots to my comfort range when hunting.
I have my self imposed limits and stay within them as others should.
But don't put down on a given weapon just because you personally cannot hit with it, others may be able to.
JM2CW

I hunt with a handgun or bow 90% of the time.Thats my choice.The question asked is what is better a rifle or a handgun.I said a rifle and it is.In the military in which I served two combat tours in Vietnam,no one in a firefight was looking for a pistol.If that was all you had you used it.Tunnel rats were a specialized and not very productive operation because no one had a clue how massive these complexes were.That said, I like to use arms that are more of a challenge,which in no way makes them better.OB

Sargent Major Plumly refused to use an M-16 he used his duty pistol instead the entire fire fight. This has been well documented in the book written by Gen. Hal Moore and Joey Gallaway.

We picked up AK 47s.So what?One guy out of how many thousands preferred a handgun and that was because M16s were not reliable back then.I be the Sarge would have been way happy with an M-14 .

Just pointing out that "all" did not go for a rifle, not sure how many others but point is and was valid. Blanket statement are rarely ever accurate.

This is just my opinion.Main thing is you have to use what you have.IN a shit hits the fan situation I prefer a long gun.When I bow hunt I carry a revolver back up.When I walk on the street I may carry one of several auto pistols concealed because of practicality.When I hunt Bear from a bait I use my BFR.When I hunt Elk in the mountains I use a rifle.All my preferences.When someone asks for opinions they should realize that not everyone has the same one.OB

Tunnel rats preferred a pistol to a long gun. I know several marines in the sand box that used a pistol being the first through the door.

There are times that a handgun is the best tool for the job.

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:

Yep and you're beating it.

There now everyone agrees.So much for more than one point of view.

A rifle is not always the better tool. Sometimes it is, but I'll take a handgun within reach over a rifle leaned against a tree, or in a saddle scabbard, or in the truck, etc. any day ending in "y" if the need arises. Then the handgun in my hand, is the best tool.

I disagree with your blanket statement.

Same bullet and same velocity - then barrel length is not important. All of the killing factors are the same.

But I can buy an off the shelf rifle that will out-kill any off the shelf revolver. I can aim a rifle better as well. Additionally, I can handle the recoil better, and practice more resulting in better shot placement.

But that's just me.

quote:

Originally posted by 22Rimfire:
My main thing is.
Why does the barrel length have any bearing on the effectiveness of a firearm?
If the bullet gets complete penetration from a handgun how can a rifle be ANY BETTER?
JM2CW

quote:

Originally posted by HiDrag:
Same bullet and same velocity - then barrel length is not important. All of the killing factors are the same.

But I can buy an off the shelf rifle that will out-kill any off the shelf revolver. I can aim a rifle better as well. Additionally, I can handle the recoil better, and practice more resulting in better shot placement.

But that's just me.

quote:

Originally posted by 22Rimfire:
My main thing is.
Why does the barrel length have any bearing on the effectiveness of a firearm?
If the bullet gets complete penetration from a handgun how can a rifle be ANY BETTER?
JM2CW

As is the case with most people most of the time. This makes handgun hunting more of a challenge. The more dedicated one is to the challenge, the better their tools and abilities become.

quote:

Originally posted by HiDrag:

But I can buy an off the shelf rifle that will out-kill any off the shelf revolver.

On what do you base this statement?

quote:

Originally posted by HiDrag:

But I can buy an off the shelf rifle that will out-kill any off the shelf revolver.

How can that be? Is your statement, because you shoot a rifle much better or do you mean from a terminal stand point?

Umm, how does one out-kill dead? Please explain.

And I have no real dog in this fight. I like my handguns for hunting as much as I like my rifles. As some stated, it is the challenge for me with the handgun and I do have one stand that I would get caught more with the rifle movement than I do with the handgun.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Umm, how does one out-kill dead? Please explain.

And I have no real dog in this fight. I like my handguns for hunting as much as I like my rifles. As some stated, it is the challenge for me with the handgun and I do have one stand that I would get caught more with the rifle movement than I do with the handgun.

C'mon Larry, everyone knows there is handgun dead, and then there is rifle dead. Rifle dead is always better.