(The article was originally posted by me in inappropriate category)

Pistols and revolvers in self-defense against a bear. Statistics on Russia and the USSR. Article of Russian expert.

Vova_ex

posted 16-3-2004 06:42

So , ladies and gentlemen , sorry for the long wait I promised statistics. A lot of work was . I want to first talk about these statistics is that you could understand what it represents. I will allow myself here to copy a piece of text from my other post. In the ballistic laboratory of the Federal Judicial Examination Center of Ministry of Justice of the Russian Federation , where I had the privilege to work , there is a giant , but in my opinion poorly rated , selection of materials on the results of the use of firearms .
Part of their dedicated use of non- hunting weapons for hunting and self-defense , even from animals. It is large enough statistical data to based on it can draw conclusions about the effects of various types of small arms , including rifles and handguns, in virtually all common animal.
These statistics are accumulated in different ways. Largest and most complete part , on the basis of documented cases directly to the scene, and confirmed by numerous proven track record .
The other part is made up of statements and reports of the various parties, but with no physical evidence . Typically, these cases refer to situations where the evidence lost, or when the participants are not able to point ( to find) the scene, or occurring in hard to reach places , or places is not located on the territory of Russia . However, it should be noted that despite the lack of documentary material in these cases, they are usually on the testimony of the participants do not differ from similar, but with a serious documentary base that speaks to their credibility.

So "korotkostvol" . Most of the materials in cases of self-defense pistols and revolvers from bears , not fresh. They basically fixed before the 80s , but there are , of course, and newer . Please tell about the total number of cases of self-defense against bears and weapons used in this case . Actually fixed number of them much more of my said , but otherwise things were so confusing and not clear that working with them is extremely difficult. I used only the most complete and reliable , proven physical evidence , the testimony of witnesses and participants. In some cases , we measured the mass of dead animals. But not mentioned by me in less clear cases , the overall proportion of successful and not successful cases on models of weapons , almost the same , which is important for our generalization. How not to fall under the concept of the effectiveness of the weapons are not cases where a person shot in the air, regardless of the outcome. Just not reported cases where people do not have time to use the weapon , or did not shoot for any other reason .

Weapons chambered 7.62/25 TT and 7.63 Mauser .
It's a TT pistol and revolver model 1896 , various modifications. Since almost the same , and even interchangeable ammunition , their effect is identical . Based on this, I have presented cases with the participation of one united group.
Since the 30s of the 20th century , 30 have carefully documented cases. Of these, 21 cases opened fire from a distance of at least 2 meters. Of the 21 th person 14 people did not receive any public damage , 4 people received injuries of varying severity, 3 died. In these 21 cases, 14 bears were killed and found .
9 people opened fire from a distance of less than 2 meters killed 3 people, 2 more were injured , 4 are not affected . Killed were found five bears. It should be noted that the determination of the distance ' less than 2 meters ' probation and summarized , from 2 meters to direct contact, so as to establish its exact value in this situation is impossible.
The largest bear killed by weapons of this caliber ( TT pistol ) , had a mass of 310 kg . In other cases the weight of animals was very different and ranged from 70 to 280 kg . Unfortunately it stood was not done frequently, and on the basis of available data , to identify a direct relationship between weight and survival of the beast , it's hard . Often simply stated that the beast big, medium or small size . Without specifying the mass, such definitions are somewhat subjective. Cases where the bear was killed , not always coincide with the cases where a person does not get hurt . It should be noted that quite often, even in the event of death of a person , animal , too, died , and he was found nearby. Obviously, the dead animal is not always sought , therefore, similar incidents have occurred more frequently.

Weapons under the 7.62 revolver cartridge ' Nagant ' .
Actually, it is only the revolver ' Nagant ' . Cases of its use the most - 38 , 30 of them from a distance of more than 2 meters. Of the 30 , only 16 people have been injured at all , 8 killed , 6 received various injuries. In these 30 cases, 13 were found dead bears.
Of the 8 opened fire from less than 2 m , 2 people died , 4 received various injuries, 2 is not affected at all. 4 found dead bear.
The largest bear, whose weight was recorded weighed 238 kg . Of the features of the wound ballistics of this caliber revolver pointed out that the bullets ' Nagant ' is not always break through the cranial bones of a large bear. In such cases, a more productive is hit in the chest and neck area . In general, if we compare this with the same caliber of diameter 7.62 \ 25TT , and 7.63 Mauser , it is clear that ' Revolver ' has less killer , stopping and penetrating action

Weapons chambered for 9x18 Mak.
Reliably documented 26 incidents of gun PM, and 2 cases of the use of APS pistol .
Of the 26 cases of PM in 19 cases , shooting start to lead from a distance of more than 2 meters. In these 19 cases, 10 people were injured at all , 4 died and 5 were injured . 10 found dead bears.
Of the 7 opened fire from less than 2 m , 3 is not affected , 2 were injured and two were killed. 3 killed and found the bear.
Documented cases of the use of the pistol APS , for our consideration of little use - only two of them . In one case the bear was killed , and the man was not injured, but the judge noticeable impact on one occasion , I would not. In the second case, the fire was a queue at a distance of about 5 meters and the bear was killed on the spot. But this case is all the more so can not be considered in the context of the effectiveness of pistols, from the fact that the knockdown in the automatic mode is much superior to single shots .
The largest weighted beast of those killed by the caliber of 9 \ 18 has a mass of 247 kg . The bullets of this caliber does not always break through the skull , and clearly inferior to the action of bullets CT / Mauser , but somewhat superior to the action revolver bullets ' Revolver ' .

Weapons chambered for 7.65 \ 17 Browning .
It includes a variety of foreign-made guns that were in vogue in the Soviet Union during the period from the 20s and partly in the post-war period . They provide a diversity of structures and likely different muzzle energy for the same cartridge.
Cases of self-defense from a bear with a weapon caliber 7.65 \ 17 were caused by apparently only a desperate necessity. With the necessary certainty can lead 17 such cases. In 11 cases, the shooting started with more than 2 meters . Not affected at all only 4 people , 3 were injured , 4 were killed. 4 killed and found the bear.
In 6 cases , when fire was opened less than 2 meters were still alive and not injured only 2 people . 2 more people received various injuries and the 2nd died. Were killed and found two bears.
About chucks 7.65 \ 17 that have been made at the time, you will notice that their energy is significantly inferior to modern patrons 7.65 \ 17 , who reached the usual energies , from about 70's 20th century. In addition , these cartridges domestic production, combined with instability characteristics.

Weapons chambered for 9 \ 19 Para.
Weapons under this cartridge , we have been producing not so long ago , and in such cases it has not yet been observed . All uses of handguns 9 \ 19 relate to the use of various foreign-made pistol used in the USSR in the war , and partly the postwar period. They had a different design , but they were mostly Parabellum- 08 and Walther P- 38.
Were 17 cases of use of weapons of caliber 9 \ 19 to bear that meet the criteria of completeness . In 10 cases, the weapon was used from a distance of more than 2 meters. Of these seven cases, people do not receive any injuries , 2nd traumatized and one died . 7 was found dead bears.
Of the seven cases, the use of weapons from a distance of less than 2 meters , 3 people were not injured , 2 injured , 2 killed . 4 killed and found the bear.
The largest of the weighted weighed 280 kg . Weight remaining ranged from 90 to 230 kg . In general it can be noted that the effectiveness of the bullets fired from pistols 9 \ 19 , similar to the effect of bullets efficiency 7.62 \ 25 fired from a pistol TT. It should also be noted that patrons 9 \ 19 , production is now greatly enhanced , compared with the cartridges 9 \ 19 times previously , and used in all these cases.

Weapons chambered for 6.35 ( 25ASR ) .
From domestic pistols to treat them Korovin pistol , but other than it used a lot of foreign guns of this caliber. The gun Korovin produced reinforced cartridge, but it could also be used in other models. Besides its gain with respect to the subject is unimportant.
Been 12 attempts to self-defense from a bear with a caliber of 6.35 ( 25ASR ) . Of these, probably in 8 cases , shot from a distance of more than 2 meters. Not affected 3 people , 1 were injured , 4 were killed.
Of the 4 cases of shooting with less than 2 meters 1 person was damaged , 3 died.
The cartridge of this caliber is extremely weak , and it is not suitable for such situations . Only an extremely desperate situation could lead to their use . In addition , statistical analysis of situations with its use complicated by the fact that the survivors of those who have tried to apply it is much less than in other gauges are applied . Of the 12 cases of its use was murdered and found only one bear .

Weapons chambered 11.43 (.45 ACP)
Actually, it is only pistols Colt M -1911 , have been reported to us during the 2nd World War, the United States. Statistics of their use is very small and does not allow for a complete withdrawal of their effectiveness .
Of the 9 cases , shooting from a distance of more than 2 meters was carried out in 7 cases . One person was injured , the other 6 no damage. It was found killed and seven bears.
Of the two cases when shot from a distance of less than 2 meters , one person is injured , the other was injured. 1 bear was killed , and it is injured man.
Unfortunately , the weight of any of the bears killed by the bullets of this caliber is not marked , and the annotation ' beast had a very large size " is very subjective.
You can certainly argue that the caliber 45ASR most effective and this is confirmed by the fact that out of the 9 people who were defending them , no one was killed . But we must not forget that the statistics on 45ASR the most numerous, and in my opinion , is not beyond chance.

In my view , none of the presented calibration is not necessary for how - ever protection against bears. They may be divided only into 3 groups.
The first I would carry guns ' conditionally acceptable ' for such a defense . They have the caliber 45ASR , 9 \ 19 , and 7.62 \ 25TT . Somewhat surprising effect of the latter caliber. Even humans, it does not always stop a bullet , but it has some efficacy bear. This, in my opinion, due to the greater density of tissues bear and as a result, better energy transfer to them . That is, while the energy for the big bear is not enough , in his body , it consumes more completely and efficiently than in the human body , which almost always is a bullet pierces through, needlessly taking away most of the energy . Of course, as the man he still works much better , as it is usually more than enough , and the energy that has time to give a bullet.
The second group I can carry guns ' leaving hope . " They have the caliber 9 \ 18 7.62 7.65 Nagant and partly \ 17 Browning . These statistics show that they leave a chance to escape , but no more. It should be noted that after the attacker to shoot a bear , it is not always continues the attack . Apparently the pain and fear yet sometimes it stops . If the bear was always going to end, casualties among the defenders would have been as much more , and among the defenders of such caliber , especially.
The third group includes guns ' chance of not leaving . " This weapon caliber 6.35 ( 25ASR ) . Of course , cases of salvation through such weapons are, but in my opinion it is rather a reaction of an animal to pain and fear than the merit of weapons. Proof of this is a small and insignificant one (! ) the number of those bears killed in such a defense. Of course, the use of larger caliber , part animal was not killed , and also retreated under the influence of fear and pain, but as a rule , more than half were found dead .
The generalized use of statistics , it is difficult to conclude that distinguished the situation in which people do not suffer from those which were lost. Basically survive in situations where the bear died , literally riddled with bullets. But often killed a beast, lying next to the dead or crippled man, and sometimes opposite , the man turned out to be unharmed and the bear , stopping the attack tried to escape. So the clear conclusion is still there . One thing is clear - the more likely it was , the more people have time to shoot and hit.
In addition to these gauges , there are also adequately documented cases of the use of pistols and revolvers other, more rare in our caliber . I have not seen fit to give them , because they were isolated, and therefore do not allow their proper evaluation

Seems to me any firearm is better then no firearm and waiting until the bear is closer then 2 meters is a bad idea.

I have set for my self a 20 foot rule (about 6 meters) if the bear is coming and doesn't stop or turn at 20 feet or before I am shooting

I don't think any of the calibers discussed I would consider good bear medicine, particularly not large brownies. As p dog pointed out, I would rather have something than nothing, however, my choice of weapon for backup duty is normally .45 caliber but not an ACP...... However, even the .45 ACP loaded correctly could work.

Where I live and P.dog also we have heavy concentrations of black bear.I carry my 1911 with heavy loads of hardball.When I was running bear with dogs I took a few with the 1911 and it did a good job,but I had time to place my shot.If a bear was coming at me with its ears back and low to the ground I would be pumping lead into him right away.No waitin for this boy!!!Is the 1911 ideal???Probably not.I like it because I can reload it fast and it points the best of all pistols and revolvers I own.OB

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
I like it because I can reload it fast and it points the best of all pistols and revolvers I own.OB

Enough said right there. Go with what works best.

Thanks Vashper, that was a very interesting report.

Makes me feel a little better all those times I carried a 45 ACP 1911 in bear country.

What velocity is required for bear defense?

Coupled with that is the loudness question.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Seems to me any firearm is better then no firearm and waiting until the bear is closer then 2 meters is a bad idea.

I have set for my self a 20 foot rule (about 6 meters) if the bear is coming and doesn't stop or turn at 20 feet or before I am shooting

I don't have much experience with black bears and pistols but have shot them with archery gear.

I read in a stab and blast magazine that when dealing with black bears that invaded whatever distance is your safe zone, the best course was to just shoot them with the result being the bear would either be dead or would stop the attack and run. Doesn't seem right with sows when cubs are present but again this is not where I have the experience to judge. The thought was the bear might not be dead but the shot hitting him/her would drive me away. And if the shot wasn't fatal, it's ok as the bear was the aggressor.

With grizzlies and brown bears this approach was a sure fail according to the writer. They are going to lunch on you once they decide to charge and only breaking them down or killing them will stop the charge.

I do know from bowhunting that all bears are tough and harder to kill than some other game.

Any thoughts on this philosophy?????

I think there is probably no way to set any distance "rules". I guess if you could read the bears mind......The last one (blackie) I ran off at gun point did not need shooting, just convincing that I was not an easy meal. And I did not wait for 6 meters or any particular distance. The second that the bear took a step towards me (probably 20 yards) after all of my screaming and hollering I decided that he was gonna get one and exactly one warning round. Thankfully that was enough. We both lived to tell the story.........

Craig

A 1911 45ACP is marginal, but better than a club for any bear over 500lbs. I would much rather be packing a large caliber double action revolver with a very short barrel, such as the Ruger Alaskan in either .454 Casull or .480 Ruger with a stout load and heavy bullet. Power and Packability.

This study not too enlightening for me. As all of these rounds I would think of as 'popguns' in big bear country. I like a .44 mag or .500 SW

It would depend on the type of bear and if a gun of the "correct" caliber was available. A native Alaskan killed a (at the time) record size Grizzly with a 22 pistol in a self defense situation - it doesn't mean that one should depend on a 22 pistol to hunt bear - just that you can defend yourself with whatever you have under the right circumstances. You sometimes have to use what you have and not what you would prefer.

Interesting reading, one thing to take into consideration would be intent. A male bear attacks for food or defense of territory or are prevoked and are usually detoured relatively easily. A sow with cubs is a whole different beast. And game officials see things completely different than you do. Some around here almost need teeth marks in the victim if you shoot a bear in defense. From my experience a weapon you can shoot well and are completely comfortable with works the best. Some of the calibers in the op would be questionable even on blackies in my opinion.

Was going to start a topic like this, then saw this one.

Thoughts on a .40S&W, not to hunt with, but for a self defense situation. Place would be Alaska, Griz not Browns in area while hunting Moose. Will have a 9.3 X 74R double rifle in hand MOST of the time, but when not at hand was thinking a H&K .40S&W in a quick access Blackhawk holster. What would be the recommended load, bullet type for this setup? Thanks for the tips and suggestions.

Larry Sellers
SCI(International)Life Member
Sabatti "trash" Shooter

Larry, for Griz defense, I personally would want nothing less than a .44 mag loaded with 300 + grain hardcast flat-nosed bullets. Even better would be a .45 Colt -- they will work on two legged predators with aplomb as well. Am I reading you wrong?

Speaking from personal experience living in the area you are talking about,
All of my friends carry 44 magnums. The wife and myself also carry 44's.
We have bigger revolvers but have just gotten used to these over the years.
I will try to break in my new 45 this spring.
Most of my neighbors carry 44's because that was as big as they could get years ago without a full custom.
The 40 I would leave at home. Even the 44 does not get enough penetration without the correct bullet.
My hunting partner shot one years back with some winchester hollw points and he just made him mad. Took all
6 to stop him. Now he just shoot 300gr hard cast, they work wonders.
If you have not been up here before, whenever you encounter a Brown Bear up close for the first time you will reconsider your firearm choice no matter what you have on you!!
Good luck with your hunt.
JM2CW

My point exactly!

quote:

Originally posted by 22Rimfire:
Speaking from personal experience living in the area you are talking about,
All of my friends carry 44 magnums. The wife and myself also carry 44's.
We have bigger revolvers but have just gotten used to these over the years.
I will try to break in my new 45 this spring.
Most of my neighbors carry 44's because that was as big as they could get years ago without a full custom.
The 40 I would leave at home. Even the 44 does not get enough penetration without the correct bullet.
My hunting partner shot one years back with some winchester hollw points and he just made him mad. Took all
6 to stop him. Now he just shoot 300gr hard cast, they work wonders.
If you have not been up here before, whenever you encounter a Brown Bear up close for the first time you will reconsider your firearm choice no matter what you have on you!!
Good luck with your hunt.
JM2CW

True enough

OK , if I am going to get a .44 Mag to take to Alaska, which one and why. This will be a firearm I will most likely never use here in New Mexico so. Would like to keep the original price on the low end, but still something that I could sell and not take a real beating when finished with my trip. All help appreciated.

Larry Sellers

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
OK , if I am going to get a .44 Mag to take to Alaska, which one and why. This will be a firearm I will most likely never use here in New Mexico so. Would like to keep the original price on the low end, but still something that I could sell and not take a real beating when finished with my trip. All help appreciated.

Larry Sellers

Larry,
In my mind a double action 44 is the gun to have but only if you can control it when rapidly trying to get that second shot off. Ruger is famous for holding their value and being one of the strongest guns commercially made. The Ruger Super Redhawk is made for heavy use, double action and adjustable sights.

They aren't cheap anymore but they are a great gun.

The only other choice for me would be a single action Ruger Super Blackhawk.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Was going to start a topic like this, then saw this one.

Thoughts on a .40S&W, not to hunt with, but for a self defense situation. Place would be Alaska, Griz not Browns in area while hunting Moose. Will have a 9.3 X 74R double rifle in hand MOST of the time, but when not at hand was thinking a H&K .40S&W in a quick access Blackhawk holster. What would be the recommended load, bullet type for this setup? Thanks for the tips and suggestions.

Larry Sellers
SCI(International)Life Member
Sabatti "trash" Shooter

Larry

I,ve been carrying a 5" S&W 629 on cross draw on the left hip most of the time I,m in the boonies ( my girlfriends actually, I,ve been meaning to get a .44, but I keep getting distracted by other guns, and they follow me home..) for the better part of the last six years. Forget about the weight pretty quickly, most of the time I have a small backpack on. Stainless, Hogue grips, easy maintenance, pretty handy, easy to drop in the pocket of carhartts if necessary, easy to find holsters for it. Use a Galco myself, Dimond D has one with a clip on, would let you hook it ( or whatever gun you decide on) directly to a pack if so desired..
Easy to load for, 310 grain Trueshot WFNGCs with 17 grains #9 should get you around 1100 out of a 5"barrel.. Should.. Comparatively mellow load to shoot, you can always run em hotter.

For what you,ve got in mind, probably be able to find one on Gunbroker or locally, pretty much be able to sell it for what you paid..

Course, a little Ruger Birdshead in .45, stainless, be a handy little gun too..

My FAVORITE .44 mag for Pa Blackies...S&W 4in 329PD with Scandium frame. Kicks a bit but very accurate and lite. A pleasure to carry. Always with me in Black Bear Country. Hard Cast 225 grain Keith design bullet.

But, but, but, if I was tent camping on the Alaskan Peninsula my S&W .500 4in. with 385 grain Hard Cast would be strapped to my chest constantly. Those fricken Brownies are just to big and dangerous...LOL

PAH...

I would recommend the Redhawk over all others, with a 4-inch barrel. For back-up duty, the Super Redhawk is a bit on the large side and aside from the Alaskan with its 2 1/2-inch barrel, the next shortest is 7 1/2-inches. Granted, you can always have it shortened, but the Redhawk can be had with a 4-inch barrel. I like my Smiths as well, but they won't take the beating that the Ruger will as far as heavy loads are concerned. JMHO.

Personally I find my 5.5 and my 7.5 inch red hawk point better then my 4 inch. might be the grips.

I have Hogues on the 5,5 and 7.5 and factory rubber grips on the 4.

My Taurus trackers in 41 and 44 are also good carry guns but I don't load then as hot as the Rugers.

A 210 gr 41 at 1100 and a 44 315 gr at the same have plenty of power to drive through a bears skull.

The red hawk loads are a 100 to 200 feet faster

I seen them drive through 4 feet of bear.

Paul - Thanks for the comments. I have shot a .44 Super Redhawk many years ago, so am somewhat familiar with this setup. The quick, accurate follow up second or third shot with a .44 mag is what started me thinking 40 S & W. I can get off 4 or 5 well placed shots in a couple of seconds with my H & K 40 S & W. Loaded with 180 grain flat nosed solid type bullets would do a lot of damage I would think? The gun would do well in the harsh environment, be quick at hand if needed, but would be on the light side I know.

Larry Sellers

quote:

Originally posted by PaulS:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
OK , if I am going to get a .44 Mag to take to Alaska, which one and why. This will be a firearm I will most likely never use here in New Mexico so. Would like to keep the original price on the low end, but still something that I could sell and not take a real beating when finished with my trip. All help appreciated.

Larry Sellers

Larry,
In my mind a double action 44 is the gun to have but only if you can control it when rapidly trying to get that second shot off. Ruger is famous for holding their value and being one of the strongest guns commercially made. The Ruger Super Redhawk is made for heavy use, double action and adjustable sights.

They aren't cheap anymore but they are a great gun.

The only other choice for me would be a single action Ruger Super Blackhawk.

What about a 45 Colt loaded to 1000fps? I'm thinking that the diameter would be good. But signle actoin would be slower on the follow up shots than a 1911 45ACP.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
What about a 45 Colt loaded to 1000fps? I'm thinking that the diameter would be good. But signle actoin would be slower on the follow up shots than a 1911 45ACP.

Judging by the speed of an attack, I don't think you're going to get more than one shot off. The DA would be good if you find yourself underneath something trying to eat you.

I carry a 10mm with hard cast bullets in the interior. A .44 would be more effective given equal shot placement but I have fired many thousands of rounds through smaller Glocks so I shoot the Glock 20 much better than any N frame.

I being a complete novice ask what the opinion would be with a 500 JRH loaded with a 440 hard cast going about 1000 to 1100. A light load but easy to control. Tks Ken ( my chances are slim to none of ever getting close to Alaska)

quote:

Originally posted by crabbies3:
I being a complete novice ask what the opinion would be with a 500 JRH loaded with a 440 hard cast going about 1000 to 1100. A light load but easy to control. Tks Ken ( my chances are slim to none of ever getting close to Alaska)

Having used the .500 JRH rather extensively, I would say it would be damn effective at those levels. Lots of frontal area, good weight, big hole in and out. Don't have to push them hard for them to work well.

whitworth tks for the reply that's what I thought. That's a big bullet going at a fair rate of speed. Not that ill ever get to use it in the area talked about . What I liked was that its easy to control at those lower ends
and fairly accurate mine shoots into 3/4 at 35 yards and I can shoot it well over 100 rds with no sore hands/wrist. tks KEN

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Was going to start a topic like this, then saw this one.

Thoughts on a .40S&W, not to hunt with, but for a self defense situation. Place would be Alaska, Griz not Browns in area while hunting Moose. Will have a 9.3 X 74R double rifle in hand MOST of the time, but when not at hand was thinking a H&K .40S&W in a quick access Blackhawk holster. What would be the recommended load, bullet type for this setup? Thanks for the tips and suggestions.

Larry Sellers
SCI(International)Life Member
Sabatti "trash" Shooter

Double Tap
The 200gr WFNGC @ 1050fps from a Glock 23!

990fps 435 ft/lbs from a 3.5"bbl.

1100fps 538 ft/lbs from a 4.5"bbl.
Sectional density equals .451 bullet at 254 grains, not a true heavy weight but hopefully enough. Lots of bears killed with standard .45 Colt loads before modern "Magnum" guns.

PAHunter, I wonder if you or others had ever seen the brown bear at the SpaceFarms zoo in Sussex Co NJ ? That would have gotten you thinking !!! It weighed 2000 pounds ! The claws were the size of bananas.

I don't think the 40S&W wouild be appropriate for big bears . The 10mm would be better [even for deer] but a good 44mag would be my choice with a hard cast swc.

quote:

PAHunter, I wonder if you or others had ever seen the brown bear at the SpaceFarms zoo in Sussex Co NJ ? That would have gotten you thinking !!! It weighed 2000 pounds ! The claws were the size of bananas.

That's is the reason I built a 416 for my brown bear hunt If I ever take one.

All one has to do is go stand next to a big mounted brown bear to realize just how big they are.

Not that they haven't been taken many times with lesser guns.

But they are big critters.

What about .460 Rowland with proper bullet? Mine is 14+1 capacity with virtually no recoil (STI 2011 based).

Jiri

Bear taken by Larry Kelly

With a .44 Magnum.......

I've been shooting the 45 Colt since Clint Eastwood induced the 44 mag shortage. I can't think of any issue that the 45 Colt with 250 to 300 grain slugs moving at 950 or there about won't solve.
There's something about that big old slug with a big flat nose that inspires confidence.
Does this discussion relate to bear hunters being bad shots, not carrying the right caliber rifle or the bears are real sneaky.
Using a 45-70, 444 Marlin or a 405 Winchester with 350 to 450 grain hard cast slugs should settle most bears hash. Wouldn't it?.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by arkypete:
I've been shooting the 45 Colt since Clint Eastwood induced the 44 mag shortage. I can't think of any issue that the 45 Colt with 250 to 300 grain slugs moving at 950 or there about won't solve.
There's something about that big old slug with a big flat nose that inspires confidence.
Does this discussion relate to bear hunters being bad shots, not carrying the right caliber rifle or the bears are real sneaky.
Using a 45-70, 444 Marlin or a 405 Winchester with 350 to 450 grain hard cast slugs should settle most bears hash. Wouldn't it?.

Jim

I agree completely, Jim.