quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
jwp475

to draw conculesions on one or a few animals for the 44 or 45 is wrong maybe the 45 hit less bone maybe the 44 did. The only way to compare them would to use the same medium the same shape bullet and the same vel. For at least 10 rounds If you did this I belive you with find them with in a couple of inchs of each other.

Nothing that is going to make a bit of differants in the feild. Except in the mind of the users.

I am not trying to supple a satistical data base, I am simply relating an observation that is simular to MS HITMAN'S penetration test in his post above.

Bullet weight and caliber are the only constants in external ballistics. Velocity is constantly diminshing. Therefore, pushing a larger caliber bullet at or similar velocities is going to give one an advantage. This advantage is not so apparent on a broadside shot through the lungs of a whitetail.

I'm not bashing .44 Mags, nor am I saying a .45 Colt should be loaded to the same pressures. I do however want to set the record straight on .45 Colts being weak and ineffective.

If you guys are really interested in what handguns are capable of doing, I suggest you attend a Linebaugh seminar. There are several coming up within the next few months. There you can see how the different handgun calibers stack up against each other and rifles.

You can contact John at the following address;

Linebaugh Custom Sixguns
P.O. Box 455
Cody, Wyoming 82414
(307) 645-3332

Pushing a larger caliber bullet of the same weight as a smaller caliber bullet one is going to lose vel. faster then the smaller cailber bullet. Pushing bullets of the same SD. and ballistic type one sees a lot less differants.

p dog shooter,

Theoretically and mathematically you are correct. However, according to the Hornady Ballistics Tables; the difference in velocity between a 300 grain XTP sized .452" and one sized .430" is 58 fps at 200 yards. For XTPs weighing 240 grains, the .430" diameter bullets has a paper advantage of 55 fps at 200 yards. Similar bullet styles give similar results between these two weights of bullets.

At normally accepted and accustomed revolver hunting ranges, the difference in sectional density between these two calibers may have slightly more influence on the bullet than say, the gravitational pull of the Moon.

Edit: I should have stated that my assumed iniital velocity for the 300 grain bullets is 1300 fps and for the 240s, 1400 fps. This should make things abit easier on anyone wishing to look this up for themselves.

When you accually shoot these heavy weight(300 to 325) bullets in 44 Mag and 45 Colt in the same lenght barrels and velocity you will find very little to no difference in sight picture at longer ranges,this is not what one would expect.There are many varriables ( recoil speed, barrel jump, etc.)that probable explains this phoemominum

As I was saying there is little or no differants in a heavy 44 or a 45 when it hits a animal.

[/QUOTE] From HARDBALLER: Simple math to me. .452 is bigger than .429. Same velocity, bigger hole....can't argue against that.[/QUOTE]

I have been reading this for a while and some of the answers are interesting. I agree with a lot and don't agree with some. I have both and kill a lot of deer with each. I have never had a deer stop and say OUCH, that one hurts more!
It is true the .45 can reach the same velocity as the .44 with a little less pressure. And the .44 can shoot as heavy a boolit as the .45 in normal use although there are heavier .45's for the .454 which should not be used in the Colt anyway. I use a 330 gr in the .44 and a 335 gr in the .45 and see no difference at all. I have never found an animal that can tell the difference that one boolit is .022" larger then the other. (Do you know how small this difference is?)
As far as I am concerned, this is a non issue that is not worth discussing. Both are great calibers, I love both and it only depends on what you like. It is best if all of you have both and learn to love them as I do.

I forgot to mention something. I read where someone said they never liked the recoil of the .44. I assure you that if you shoot my .45 hunting loads from my Vaquero that after 6 shots you will pray you had a .44. I have never had a friend shoot more then 6 but they will shoot my .44 all day. This thing kicks as hard or harder then my .475 Linebaugh.

bfrshooter, how fast are you pushing your .45 hunting loads? Just curious! Thanks.

mshitman, you want me to send you the information i see from accurate,hodgdon and nosler? all are newer books published since 1985,1994 or later. if those of you want to load well beyound what is recomended by better knowing experts than here on this forum. i wont be shooting near any of you. and a word to the wise,dont bring your 45lc to washinton for hunting

I appreciate your generous offer, but no thank you. I've been handloading for over twenty years now and have a fairly good feel for what most firearms will and won't take load wise. My reloading library, while not exhaustive, is stocked to fill my needs.

I am quite certain I will not be hunting in your state any time in the forseeable future.

nwwash, try some different manuals,Seirra, Hornaday just to name a coulple show show 300 grain jacketed loads with H-110 or 296 at 20.5 grains in the Hornaday manuel and 21.7 grains of 296 in the Seirra manual. If you search elswhere there is much info to support and explain loadings as such. AS to the requirements to hunt big in Washington the Grizzly Ammo,Buffalo Bore, Corbon factory loads more than meets Washington's requirments.

Well, if northwest Washington is filled with neophytes like we've all experienced here, I doubt any of us would want to be anywhere close... I guess I'll just stay over here and shoot my 45 Colt until I blow up. Now...

It is a tough thought to accept when he has to do deal with new information Cannon. Learning to relearn is not easy for any of us. The readings on Linebaughs, Bowen and I am sure I am missing at the top of my topnot others that a standard Bisley large frame .45 LC can be safely shot with powder charges that rival a 44 magnum quite easily. In fact both firms can take a Ruger and tune them up to their specs without altering the handgun and shoot the bejezzus out of them and come out a winner.
With the pressures up there I'd still opt for the .45 long colt-and yes bigger bullets still make bigger holes.
If I wanted to shoot a 44 mag with "hot" loads I would have personally have bought the standard "over the counter" Ruger as opposed to the 2 Smith 29 variations I now have in my home.
This forum IS a fine place to post and learn-sometimes it is harder to accept but given the time and the patience as in anything you can receive.
LONG LIVE THE .45LONG COLT!!!!!!

Witworth, I am getting 1160 fps with the LBT 335 gr WLNGC and with the Lyman 452651 I get 1167 fps. The lyman weighs 347 gr's instead of 325. The problem is the gun is so light it has a lot of recoil. Thumps deer good though. Best shot was 100 yd's offhand which dumped the deer in it's tracks.

bfrshooter -- thanks for the info. Appreciated!

Firstly most if not all of us in Washington have somewhat better manners than nwwashington please do not judge us by him hes probably from Seattle or Olympia and they're a bit strange.
Secondly, when I was checked out by the local game warden last deer season he seemed to think my Ruger .45 Colt was a great choice. When I told him how I was loading for it he thought was an even better choice.
Some years back there was an energy requirement published in the game regulations. This is not the case in our current regulations.
On page 15 of the 2005-2006 regulations.
"Handguns must have a minimum barrel legnth of 4" per manufactures specification and fire a minimum .24 centerfire cartridge."

Bob K,

I'm not knocking Washington State. Currently funds won't support a hunting trip that far from home. I would like to get a nice bear at some point. Bears are one of the animals I haven't taken yet. Need to remedy that in the future.

jwp475,

I now have a greater appreciation for the first guy who made the statement regarding the world being round. Guess he didn't know what he was talking about either.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:

jwp475,

I now have a greater appreciation for the first guy who made the statement regarding the world being round. Guess he didn't know what he was talking about either.

Pretty bad,but not as bad as Galileo had it when he said that the Earth revolved around the Sun instead of the Sun revolving around the Earth he was locked up

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
Bob K,

I'm not knocking Washington State. Currently funds won't support a hunting trip that far from home. I would like to get a nice bear at some point. Bears are one of the animals I haven't taken yet. Need to remedy that in the future.

jwp475,

I now have a greater appreciation for the first guy who made the statement regarding the world being round. Guess he didn't know what he was talking about either.

MS Hitman, I'd like to exrend my invitation to you to come up here for a black bear in the future. Shoot me a private message if you're interested.

My personal opinion as to why some states do not allow certin calibers, bullet weights, and load specs. is for the simple reason that there are a lot of shooters in the woods that are not hunters, no wish to insult anyone here but there are those who go to a gun store buy a gun and ammo and go hunting the next morning, never fired a gun before and have no idea what is going on, we as hunters and shooters have been some what responsible for this as there has been a real decling in father son/daughter shooting instruction in both the hunting and safe shooting aspect of our sport, that condition has started to turn around in the last several years but not in the inter cities they seem to thing that hunting is a good drive by shooting, SOME REAL SPORT THERE!!!!

cobra44 haveing in the past been involved in getting handguns legal for hunting in Wisconsin.

I attended many public hearings about that during them I found that the restrictions are in placed for these reasons.
1 anti's want to do any thing to discourge handguns.
2. several old timers in the game dept are set in their ways.
3. most people against handguns have no clue.

We went from 357, 41, 44 mags only to any center fire .22 or bigger as long as could or had been chambered in a rifle and has a 4 inch or longer barrel.

So if one would get a TC 16 inch barrel in 25acp but a stock on 25 acp would be a legal handgun cal. Then one would only have to get 4 inch 25acp pistol to be legal.

This change went into effect several years ago and we haven't seen any abuse of it.

Maybe when I retire and have the time I'll shoot and kill a deer with a 4 inch 25acp.

I'd go with a 44 mag using the original 250 grain keith bullet. Deer are easy to kill and you'll never see a differance in performance between the two cartridges.

The push for using 300 grain bullets in 44 mag,is just a trend thats based very little on real world performance. Its just like the current trend in using extremely hard lead mixes in the belief that anything else will lead a barrel.

Heavy loads are miserable to shoot in volume and volume is where you develop accuracy of shooting.

I have shot, hunted with and killed animals from the size of whitetail does to bull moose with a 44 mag. I have no experience with 45 Colt chambering. So, I'm not going to say the 44 is better than a 45, because I have no real world basis for comparison. Just wanted to get that out of the way.

What I have learned:
#1 Grip type: Most folks I've run into could spend a bit more time getting a grip type that suits their hand properly. This will greatly enhance both accuracy and the level of recoil tolerance. I have relativly large hands and the Hogue grips work very well for me. I have this style of grips on both my Super Blackhawks. I tried several styles before I found what worked for me.
#2 Sights: I have a 2x scope on my Hunter, obviously that works, but it is bulky and not "handy". On my 4&5/8" Blackhawk I have a red fiber-optic front sight and a peep (One Ragged Hole sight) on the rear. This works extremely well for me and many people who've tried my revolver are pleasantly surprized.
#3 Loads: When I started out shooting animals with a 44 25+ years ago I found that jacketed bullets of the day were not the greatest. I had a friend that came to the rescue with 250gr hard cast slugs and that cleared up the problems with large hogs and such. For deer Jacketed bullets seem to work much better, more bang-flop on lung shots. Currently I use 240gr. XTP's (1400fps), and 300gr. LBT WNGC's.(1200 fps) There is surprisingly little difference in velocity between the the two revolvers due to the fact that the Hunter is factory and the Blackhawk has had some work done to tighten it up a bit.

Why do I place Grips and Sights as more important than Loads? Well, if you can't hit something it doesn't mean shit what the hell you are shooting. Now, given two handguns that have been optimized for preformance for the individual shooter but of different calibers (44 vs. 45) I think that the logical choise is which one does that shooter shoot best. It makes no sence to me that a 335gr slug at 1350fps is going to be "better" than a 300gr. at 1200fps if in doing so that shooter eclipses his tolerance for recoil and suffers a decrease in accuracy. Handguns are inheriently low energy weapons and as such shot placement is critical. A better arguement here might be which caliber is the more accurate. All I can say is that a well placed .429 projectile has served me very well and if an additional .020 in diameter makes you happy, go for it.