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I am usually the most prepared and sane of handgun users, I'm in a situation. I have the chance to go buffalo hunting in North Texas on my way home from the panhandle of Texas. I only have two firearms, a 12 guage and a four inch .44 Special S&W, loaded with 240 grain cast semi-wadcutter backed by 13 grains of Blue Dot, giving 1008 feet per second. Anything good to say about it? The 255 grain .45 Colt has worked pretty well for me, I hope to do as well with this load and situation. My guide will have a .338 Win Mag but I plan on putting the bullet it through both lungs. I won't starve if I don't get the perfect shot at the animal, but it is is a hunting experience I won't be able to repeat soon, since it would be a long trip from Tennessee and I don't have the resources to repeat the hunt. | ||
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Can you borrow something more substantial? How about a heavier bullet? Could a 300gn hard cast be driven to a reasonable velocity while still keeping the pressures safe enough to not hurt your gun? I recently recieved an email from a buddy who has a cabin on the Yukon river. In an effort to save weight while hikeing/ hunting, he switched to a 9mm instead of his 454 or 44mag!!! I think He's spent too much time in the bush. He was charged by a sow griz with a cub and tried to use the 9mm on her. Luckily he got to his canoe and was able to paddle down river faster than she could run in the water. He went back later to try and find her to see if she needed to be finished off but didn't find anything except a couple of squashed 9mm bullets on the ground that were otherwise clean. He said he saw a couple bounce off while he was shooting. I have no reason not believe his story. He has spent the last 13 years in the bush, most times he doesn't even carry a gun while on his trap line. I suggested that he get a 4 5/8" stainless blackhawk in 45colt and load it on the hot side. | |||
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| One of Us |
If the 12ga (slug loaded) and 44spl were the only 2 guns I had with me and a shot presented itself, I think my first shot(s) would be with the 12ga. The 44 would be my "back up", that being backed up by the guide's 338. I'd really be tryin' to come up with a bigger gun if I were you. | |||
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I am a DIEHARD handgun hunter but am afraid that i would have to vote for the 12 guage with slugs (like 1 3/8 ounce if available there)!! Good Luck and let us know how the hunt turns out!! | |||
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with a properly placed shot it would probably work but your asking alot from such a light load. Personally Id say your load is good for maybe a 500 lb animal at the most. Id probably borrow the guides 338 quote: | |||
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| one of us |
I know some who take deer and hogs with the .44 special with no complaint when used within close range. However I think it is quite a stretch for the purpose you intend. | |||
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I wonder where the ELITISTS are as they would consider this as a STUNT! I would go up in velocity and bullet weight for complete penetration PERIOD!! As you are limited in velocity with a 4" barrel, I would rather go up in caliber, maybe you could borrow one. ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| One of Us |
quote:This fellow only has 2 guns, and no one is going to criticize that. But if a guy INTENTIONALLY selects an inadequate cartridge for dangerous game hunting when he could just as easily have selected an adequate caliber, that's a different story. | |||
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500--Let me set this straight-The load of BD may be adequate but I would strongly advise using H 110 or Lil Gun if the new lots don't have any problems. I would also go up in bullet weight to at least 275 gr Keith bullet. That's what I meant and there's my preference to larger calibers thrown in. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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How hot can your S&W 44 special be loaded? Will it take the old Keith load? Maybe if you could load a hevier bullet, 275-320gns, and still keep the pressure low enough to not damage your gun, then maybe it would work if you could take a behind the sholder heart or lung shot. The 12ga with slug or sabboted slug should work. You might at least try to see if you can get enough bullet weight and velocity out of your special. | |||
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I can't seem to find any hot 44special load data at the moment. Maybe someone with quickload could run some numbers to see what might be possible in the 4" 44 special. What would be a resonable limited use max pressure? Hodgdon only list pressure up to 13,500cup. Maybe 20,000psi for a limited use? Which model of S&W do you have? | |||
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Carson, You could look at the load on this page: www.sixguns.com/range/elmersloads.htm This is John Taffin telling about Keith's .44special load in the solid head brass. | |||
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Why do I think this is a troll, or you are intent on blowing up your gun? 7.5" barrel for 44 mag gives you 12.3 Grains of Blue Dot, under a 240 gr bullet, for 1186. 13.7 grains, max load, 40,000cup, gives you 1285. You say you are using a cast bullet, which should give you more velocity, yet you claim it goes 1008 out of a 4 inch, with 13 grains? What kind of 44 sp. are you shooting? Can it handle medium to high pressure 44 magnum loads? I did shoot a 44 special to pieces, using 9 grains of Unique, under a 240 grain cast bullet. By the way, Blue Dot does burn fast, giving good velocity in short barrels. However, it also pressure spikes quick and high. What you are doing is real stupid, and dangerous. If I was, and I have, shot 44 mag loads in a sp. gun, I'd go under the minimum load for the mag, and use a slow burning powder, that isn't intended for target loads. Unique and Hs-6 are my two favorites for this. Course, I'm a dinosaur, and haven't used the newer powders. AA 7 has been used in 45 super for those kinds of bullet weights, and velocities, with 25k cup pressure. Still, for what you want, Unique is an excellent powder. quote:WHAT I SAID ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} Seriously, I'd give this load a chrono. Even in your shorter barrel, the slower burning powder, in particular under a cast bullet, generate speed, with moderate pressure, and little pressure spike. Sides, it's fun. I like using H-110, and a lot of it in 45 colt. It gets the bullet moving, but even out of a 6 inch, you get a big blast and flash from unburnt powder. Great for fun at the range, right at twilight. I've always felt a heavier bullet, at a moderate velocity, will penetrate better then a lighter bullet, at higher velocity. I agree with the 270-300 grain guys, at close range. That combo, even if it's only going 800-900 fps, is going to go straight, and deep. gs [ 08-19-2003, 11:34: Message edited by: Socrates ] | |||
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Gentleman, I have not made up my Blue Dot load out of whole cloth, in fact Brian Enos quotes similar loads in the current issue of Handload magazine for the .44 Special, "safe in post war S&W revolvers". My model 24 is safe with this load, since he quotes 12.5 grains of Blue Dot with 255 grain cast bullets. Yes, I have used the 17.0 grains of 2400 load from Elmer Keith, in my 6 1/2" Model 624, it gave 1192 fps from that revolver. I have no explainatin of the low velocity I got with my four inch S&W model 24 except that I uded CCI 300 primers, which I seem to get almost 100 fps less velocity than the Winchester Large Pistol Primers I now use. I would like to hunt with a gun I can take back home and have a memory association. I like to use my firearms for my hunting, just because I enjoy it. All that said, I don't hear a great number of letters in support of my plan. Those of you who offered alternative load data, I look forward to trying those loads as my reloading equipment becomes availabe. I do have any number of other firearms, including a Ruger Blackhawk 4 5/8", Ruger Blackhawk 7 1/2" and Redhawk 5 1/2" in .45 Colt. I have Buffalo Bore 320 grain load that do 1300 fps in my 5 1/2" Redhawk. I have all the S&W and Ruger .44 Magnums too, along with Garret 320 grain 1300 fps loads. I don't have a .475 or .500 in any flavor. I don't see the need for more revolver than a heavy loaded .45 Colt or .44 Magnum. You who have more recoil tolerance than I, I enjoy your exciting posts about these super firearms, but I'm going to watch! I will post the results of my hunt with you all. As to the 12 guage, some posts and articles I've read report limited penetration from the 12 guage on black bear and other similar animals. Elmer Keith shot his hot loaded .44 Specials against all the rifles available to him in one article, only one of the big 50 calibers had more penetration. I've only killed one aninal over 250 pounds with a handgun, a pig with a .45 Colt from a 6" S&W 25, using Elmer Keith's 18.5 grains of 2400 for 1040 fps. I appologize for my low velocities for my loads. I have chronographed factory match ammo from my .45 ACPS and gotten with a few feet per second of reported velocities, so I think the chronograph is functioning properly. The pig had both shoulder broke, complete penetration. I've tried to use everything I've loaded on real targets and at real world ranges, usually 50 yards or less. I didn't mention accuracy. I'm out of practice, again strange place, no resources to shoot regularly, and my shooting has suffered. I shot a six inch group at 40 yards offhand with this gun and load. After a day's practice, I shot four inches from a rest at the same distance. There you have it, a fool and his errand. Thanks to all who answered, handgun shooters are special people. | |||
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Just a thought ... In most states the 44 special isn't legal for deer. If it were me, I don't belive that I would consider it for Water Bufflo. Just a thought. Dave | |||
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A heavy loaded 44 magnum will get the job done. Simply stated its one hell of a revolver cartridge. Thats what I would use if I were you, just my own opinion of course. | |||
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Carson, This whole thing just really sounds like a bad idea unless these buffalo are so tame you can walk up and put the muzzle between their eyes. I think what you are setting yourself up for is a very inhumane way of killing a buffalo. Sure, if the thing is dumb enough to let you walk up on it and pump enough lead here and there, you can kill it with your 44 Special. But I think a more likely outcome is you are going to shoot the poor thing a time or two and it's going to run off and the guy with the .338 is going to be the one who kills the buffalo. The obvious question is why don't you do it right to start with? BORROW the 338 and bag your buffalo. Or worst case scenario, use your 12 ga. with slugs. But my .02 cents worth is do the buff, your pistol and yourself a favor and shoot the poor thing with a proper weapon. There's nothing satisfying about butchering an animal with a firearm just to say you killed it with a whatever. [ 08-20-2003, 02:44: Message edited by: Pecos45 ] | |||
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Carson, In your first post you said you only had 2 firearms, a 12ga and a 44spl. In your latest post you stated "I do have any number of other firearms". So, which statement is true? I think Socrates is on the right track. | |||
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What I percived from his posts is that he's visiting out of state and only has the two with him and wants to hunt as he is traveling home. | |||
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I have one small piece of information to add. A kind experimenter sent me a note. He stated a 240 grain cast SWC .44 Special at 750 fps penetrated 19 inches of wet newspaper. The late Finn Aagaard reported factory .338 Win Mag 250 grain Nosler Partitions penetrated 15 inches. I am not for a minute saying these are comparable firearms, just offering the opinion that a .44 hole in both lungs or the heart may equal be a definite successful hunt. I plan on hunting hard and taking that 40 yard broad side shot. If it doesn't happen, I'll go home with thanks to my guide for a wonderful experience. I'd rather hunt and not shoot than not hunt ethically. | |||
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I've never even seen a live buffalo, and have never shot a head of game, large or small, with a .44 special, so the following is all conjecture. However... I have little doubt that, with a broadside shot, you will get enough penetration to eventually kill the buffalo. Whether you will kill it cleanly, in anything like a reasonably humane amount of time (absent back-up from the .338) is a different question. Maybe I'm a little more squeamish than most, but my goal is to have an animal die in its tracks, as soon as possible after the bullet impact, and not spend a lot of time suffering. That's often a practical impossibility--most wild things are born tough or they don't survive--so I'll settle for the short trail left by an animal trying to escape with ruined lungs. What my personal ethic won't permit is drilling a half- or three-quarter-inch hole through the vitals of a beast large enough to temporarily endure such damage, then sitting around and having a sandwich and a smoke while the poor thing wanders around, likely in some pain, until it bleeds to death internally. I'm afraid that the latter scenario might describe the fate of a water buffalo shot with a .44 special--it might go deep, but it won't destroy a proportionately large enough amount of tissue to kill quickly. I know that I shoot a somewhat similar load--250 gr. Speer SWC @ 1000 ft/sec--in a .45 Colt, and have qualms about taking a whitetail broadside at more than 40 or 50 yards. I'm not entirely comfortable hunting big hogs with a 240 gr. Hornaday @ 1800 ft/sec. from a .44 mag. carbine. I wouldn't even consider something the size of a buffalo with either load. If you want to take the animal with a personal firearm, the 12 ga and saboted slugs would be my way to go. [ 08-22-2003, 17:26: Message edited by: whiteeagle ] | |||
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Can someone please explain to me why so much of this discussion is about a 44 Special, which is NOT the right firearm for the job, when he has the 12 GA? Any number of 12 GA sabot loads will deliver modern 45/70 performance, which dwarfs the 44 special. Lightfield makes a great 465 gr 12 GA sabot slug that clocks 1800 fps for 3346 FPE. | |||
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| <Rusty-Gunn> |
quote:I'm not sure how the lack of owning a suitable cartridge is supposed to make an inadequate cartridge better. Sometimes I think you even confuse yourself. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} If all I owned was a 45LC, and hunted cape buffalo, then it would be okay, but if I owned stronger cartridges, then I'd be a fool. Explain that logic... ~~~Suluuq | ||
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quote:I've never heard of this company. Do you have any information on a "hard" sabot intended for heavy game? Aren't most sabot in 12 guage for deer size animals? Lot's of folks have tried to stear me this way, just looking for a good solution. As I said, I'd like to attach a good hunting memeory to one of my own firearms if possible. If it looks like a custom 12 guage round is it, I'll give it my upmost attention. Thanks again for the information. | |||
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Carson, Natchez Shooters Supply carries Lightfield ammo. So does Tar-Hunt Guns (ph 570 389 9150). You can give either one of them a call for more info. When you get back from your hunt, please let us know the results. If you could post some pictures that would be way cool. | |||
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Brenneke slugs are solid, as opposed to foster-type slugs which are a hollow cup. I think the Brenneke slugs would work on big game. | |||
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Didn't Remington make a solid copper slug with 4 petals that would shear off and allow the base to continue on? I'm thinking this might work well also, but a solid would be much better. Yes, take pictures and post them here. | |||
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I have a few questions on this one. First, have you thought of the Buffalo Bore 44spl load? It's a 255gr SWCGC at a listed 100fps. Second, is the 12ga a smoothbore, or a rifled barrel? All of the major companies (Remington, Winchester, Federal) offer premium performance slugs for rifled barrels. They've got copper solid hollow points, BRI style, Partions, and bonded core slugs. I've never shot, or even seen, a water buffalo, but these loads all work well on elk. I've seen the end results, and the penetration was impressive. Expansion on the few that were recovered was excellent. Good luck with whatever you decide on. | |||
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I've seen abandoned cars shot with 12 ga slugs. The results looked like the vehicle had been straffed with 20mm cannon! Get up fairly close and the shotgun slug is fearsome weapon. (Something the 44 Spl can never be to a buffalo.) This still sounds more like a "butchering" than a hunt. ![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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I'm gonna have to agree with you, Pecos. What I want to hear/see is the rest of the story, if it ever happens. | |||
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quote:Being a .44 Spl fan from way back, I was aware of the Buffalo Bore 255 grain .44 Spls, but I like loads I can shoot enough in practice to become proficient. I shot about 75 rounds of assorted .44 Spls preparing for this hunting trip, using the 4" S&W Model 24. Not much by my usual standard of several hundred, but I do have 25 years of general S&W N-frame muscle memory to fall back on. Would you please tell me more about the elk you have personal knowledge of, shot with rifled slugs? By the way, I have a smooth bored 20" Benelli M1, with adjustable rifle type sights, square front blade and square rear notch. They remind me of black target pistol sights. It seems to be a good 75 yard offhand shooter. I'll have to say all the slugs I've heard of are intended to open up from mild resistance, say deer or black bear size game. All the professional Alaskan guides I've heard of use big bore rifles for back up on brown bears, not rifled slugs. Some park rangers and other more "casually" exposed people like photographers, fishermen, etc resort to shotguns. Logic can get me into trouble, but if a slug shotgun isn't a poor substitute why aren't they a first choice with guides? I don't know about car bodies as a target, but I did hear one thing about the midrange .41 Magnum 210 grain led semiwadcutter. The soft lead bullet penetrated very well on car bodies because it lubricated the metal it was cutting through. I have no idea if this concept applies to animal tissue, but rather doubt it, except maybe bone or other resistive tissue. Let me know about the your rifled slug experience, it should be very useful in my decision making process. I will check the Buffalo Bore website again, and see what they say. I think I looked for any game animals they've shot with this load, without result. The recommended game size was 500 pounds, if I remember correctly. This is one way to up the preformance of my chosen firearm just a little, but I don't have a facility to resight here locally, not that an inch or two at 40 yards would be critical, it is just a peace of mind issue. | |||
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Guys, I checked and the slugs I have in my shotgun are the solid Brenneke Rottweil 1 1/8 ounce 12 gauge 2 3/4" "Magnum Loads". I have ordered a box ($67 per box of 50) of the Buffalo Bore bullets. Another 15 grains of bullet weight isn't a lot, but every little bit helps, even at 1000 fps. Wish I had my chrongraph and a leisurely afternoon at the range to test and sight in this load. | |||
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Carson, YOu have a bit of a problem, or at least a hard decision to make here. From the lessons I have learned over the last nine hunting seasons hunting with handguns, there are a few things I recommend to those going after heavy game with a handgun. First off, never use any conventional jacketed handgun bullet such as the Hornady XTP. These are very accurate shooting bullets but when used on game larger then deer, I have seen to many failures to recommend them to others. I used them for the first couple years becuase they were so darn accurate, but after seeing how they reacted on impact, I looked for a better bullet. The best jacketed bullet for the money for hunting large game are the Speer Gold Dot SP bullets. They are true bonded core bullets that simply will not shed a jacket period. If I use a jacketed bullet, which I rarely do anymore, it is this type. Notice that I said for hunting large game, YOU my friend will be hunting large, heavy and dangerous game. I like that you are using a cast bullet but like most I would recommend adding bullet weight and use a bullet of LBT type design. From the tests I have personally done with rounds like the 357 Mag, 44 mag, 45 acp, 45 colt, 454 Cas, 480 Ruger and 50 A.E., if you drive any bullet above normal weight for caliber, i.e.; 158 gr, 240 gr, 230 gr, 255 gr, 300 gr, 325 gr and 325 gr respectively, to at least 1000 fps, you will get at least 14 inches of penetration on any game animal. You will get more on a clean lung/heart shot. Any added velocity will increase penetration up to a point but then other things can go wrong. If you can get a hard cast bullet of between 18-20 hardness that weights at least 250 gr and drive it to +1000 fps, you should have enough penetration to reach the heart on a buffalo. As you know though, you will not have the option or luxury of taking an iffy shot at any sizable bone. I have found that velocity really does not increase penetration nearly as much as added bullet weight. Get a heavy hard cast bullet, get it going over 1000 fps and get close, that will be the tricky part, do not get yourself in a bad spot because even a 338 Win Mag is pretty light on a charged up wounded water buffalo. As far as the 12 gauge goes, from what I have seen, they will no penetrate any more then the properly loaded hard casr bullet out of your handgun. They may land with more notice but on game the size you are going after, the added energy will make little difference. If you want to kill the buff quick, drill that .429" bullet through the heart and he will be yours very quickly. DO not get me wrong, I do not feel either of your choices are that great for this type of game but neither do you, you must do with what you have now and with the proper loads and good shooting, the 44 Spl will do the job, there is just no room to spare. Personally I would feel better if the guide had a 375 Rum pointed over my shoulder but thats just me. Good Hunting!! Let us know how things go!! Remember it is better to pass on a poor angle then to have a wounded buff riding your A__! 50 | |||
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Carson, I don't give a shit what a 4" 44 Spl. does to wet newspaper, it's not a gun to hunt buffalo with. If you've got "any number of" other guns at home, why don't you have your wife send you a real gun by UPS and hunt your buffalo proper? Short of that, borrow your guide's 338. Why are there water buffalo in North Texas? H. C. | |||
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quote:I think the exotic game can be hunted year-round and give the person of average means the chance to hunt animals they could never afford to hunt in their native environment. Is it legal to send a gun to other than a FFL dealer or gunsmith by UPS? I guess shipping a rife hadn't occured to me. I do have a .338 Win Mag now available to me, an older Ruger bolt action, with Remington 250 grain PSP loads. I will carry it with me on my trip, instead of the shotgun, as my second choice, if I can't get a shot otherwise acceptable. If I were responsible for the successful completion of a hunt, as my guide will be, I'd want to use and carry my own "heavy" rifle. Very wet newspaper issue, as I understand it, gives a comparison medium which can be related to real flesh and blood. If a certain rifle or pistol bullet expands, or not, and penetrates in game as it does in very wet newspaper, you have a reference point. Of course, it is a homogenous medium, unlike live animals, so you don't get variations like hitting bone, lung tissue and so on. I haven't shot a truely big animal with a pistol bullet, just deer or pigs, so the truth of the matter will have to be based on experience and the reports of others. I just spoke to a man who shot a 1000 pound steer with factory 240 grain JHP, .44 Magnum. He broke the shoulder and hip with two bullets, as well as a complete heart lung penetration. He allowed as the JHP factory ammo was not appropriate, but he had a sick critter and didn't want it running off into someone else's pasture. | |||
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My first hand shooter experience with slugs on game is limited to one rabbit that just wouldn't get out of the trail. On year I set up a 5 gallon bucket of sand on the last day of the season. I figured that if I didn't get anything, I'd just do penetration tests on the bucket. I shot five of the Federal 3" 1.25oz hollow point rifled slugs into the bucket they all penetrated 5" from 30yds. That's about what I get from my .44mag with 240gr XTPs. As for performance on game, I saw one elk that was shot at about 45yds with a rifled slug. It was a double lung shot on a standing, broadside elk. What was left of the slug was just under the skin on the off side after hitting one rib. With the BRI style slugs, total pass through shots seem to be the norm, unless one of the shoulders are hit. I've personally shot though a car, door to door, with one of the BRI slugs. I just bought a new Winchester 1300 and I plan to try out the Remington Core-Lokt Ultra 385gr bonded 12GA slug as soon as I buy a rifled choke tube. I wouldn't hesitate to use any 12GA slugs on elk at reasonable distances, say no more than 75yds. I would tend to think that elk and water buffalo are reasonably similar. They're both big and tough. Good luck. | |||
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Collegekidandy, Your defense of slugs in a shotgun is valid but I did not say they were worse then handgun bullets in penetration, just very little if any better. In fact, if you put a properly hardened LBT designed bullet or even SWC design such as Keiths into a round that will drive it over 1000 fps, the penetration and game taking performance will suprise most rifle shooters. Your comparision of your 44 mag with 240 gr XTP HP's is also very invalid. Anyone who has used the XTP line of bullets much knows they are best suited to light game as they tend to be shallow penetrators. If I ever used an XTP, it would only be for deer size game and then I would only use the 300 gr .429" and the 300gr .452" XTP. The XTP-MAG bullets are for sure tougher bullets but for the rounds they were designed for, 454 and 475 Line., they will shed their jackets just as often as the conventional XTP's in conventional revolver rounds. If you loaded your 44 MAg with a 300 or 320 gr WLNGC and drove them to 1200-1300 fps, there isn't a rifled shotgun slug around that will penetrate anywhere near as deeply. Even the 44 Spl with a +240 gr Hard cast would penetrate with conventional shotgun slugs and more then most. On light thinskinned game, the slug gun would land with more visible authority but true game taking ability isn't any better then any big bore handgun round loaded with the proper bullet. Good Shooting!!! 50 | |||
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quote:Yes, you can have it shipped to yourself personally. I know a fellow who is bear hunting in Alaska right now. He shipped his gun and ammo ahead of time. If he had shipped them to his outfitter, they would have had to go through an FFL. Instead, he shipped them to himself, in care of the outfitter. He was able to verify that the rifle and ammunition arrived in Alaska before he left West Virginia, so he didn't have to activate "Plan B". H. C. | |||
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