Springfield made these in the early 90s. This is a Peter Sthal design and is very well suited to handling the higher pressure rounds in the 1911 style pistols.

This picture shows the differences between the Browning pivot link and the link less.



180 grain XTPs at 1300 fps plus eject about 8' and despite not having a "ramped" barrel their are no smileys on any of the cases shot from the one that I have shot.

Very nice!

As far as I know the 1911 is the only design that employs a linked barrel. I am assuming that the intent was to improve accuracy. Outside of 50 yard slowfire NRA shooting there seem to be plenty of other guns that shoot as accurately.
Peter.

The link less can delay the barrel slide unlocking thus making it very suitable to the higher pressure cartridges, such as the 10mm, 40 Super and 45 Super

jwp, that is true, but:
1. wasn't the original intent to ensure a better "lockup" between barrel and slide?
2. I have an EAA Witness in 10mm which does not have a linked barrel. Neither does a Glock. I have not fired my gun enough to determine if there are any negative effects of a linkless barrel.
Peter.

John browning did away with the link when designed the Hi-Power.

He corrected the major problems of the 1911.

But by then it was and entrenched hand gun of a major military power and hard to do away with.

I passed on a 6" a while back. Should have bought it. It didn't last 2 weeks at $1500.

I read that the linkless part of the guide rod is prone to breaking but that may have been earlier models.

Nice catch, Good luck.

Looking at the link less system closer it looks a lot like the system of my MAB PA15.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
John browning did away with the link when designed the Hi-Power.

He corrected the major problems of the 1911.

But by then it was and entrenched hand gun of a major military power and hard to do away with.

What PD Shooter said, pic of the HiPower barrel:

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
jwp, that is true, but:
1. wasn't the original intent to ensure a better "lockup" between barrel and slide?
2. I have an EAA Witness in 10mm which does not have a linked barrel. Neither does a Glock. I have not fired my gun enough to determine if there are any negative effects of a linkless barrel.
Peter.

The Glock uses a cam system. The link less provides a longer lock up time, is that what you mean by better? P dog shooter shooter is correct.

jwp, what is your problem? I do not own a gun that is more accurate at 50 yards than my Colt Gold Cup with Kart barrel, or my Kimber Target Match with Kart barrel (in 9mm). Both have the linked barrels and both shoot 2" at 50 yards from a Ransom rest. None of my Glocks or EAA Witness Match guns shoot that well. As I said in my first post, the lockup between barrel and slide is superior with a linked barrel system for that level of accuracy, IMHO.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
jwp, what is your problem? I do not own a gun that is more accurate at 50 yards than my Colt Gold Cup with Kart barrel, or my Kimber Target Match with Kart barrel (in 9mm). Both have the linked barrels and both shoot 2" at 50 yards from a Ransom rest. None of my Glocks or EAA Witness Match guns shoot that well. As I said in my first post, the lockup between barrel and slide is superior with a linked barrel system for that level of accuracy, IMHO.
Peter.

Peter there is nothing wrong with me, but thanks for asking. Again the link less design 1911 is better suited for the high pressure cartridges such as 10mm, 45 Super etc. why do you think that barrel slide lock up is better in a linked barrel? What do you base this on.

jwp

It is much easier to get a tight lock up, ie more accurate fit between the slide and the barrel with the 1911 swinging link system.
Tighter and more consistent.

In a properly fitted or accurised 1911, when you press on the top of the barrel chamber you will get NO movement.

On most standard factory 1911's you might get a litle movement.
But this can easially be corrected with a proper fitting of a new link.

Harder to do an a linkless barrel system.

I just checked a couple of Glocks and there was about 5 feet of movement when I pressed down on the top of the barrel/chamber...

If you are going to shoot higher pressure in the 1911 system, there are a few things you should do.

First the a fully ramped barrel wiuth a minimum of relief at the bottom of the chamber.

Second, get a squared off firing pin retaining block, that increases the effort to open the slide, thus increasing the "locked" breach time.

Third, get a heavier hammer spring, that assists in the same way as the new firing pin retaining block.

Fourth get a heavier recoil spring.

Be sure your barrel bushing has strong feet to take the higher poundage recoil spring or go to a barrel bushingless system.

Use a compensator.
Use a full length spring guide rod.
I do not usually use a full length guide rod on a normal 1911 carry gun. I do like them on a gun with a short slide like an Officers or the Colt Agent, or on a Comped gun...


Once upon a time, I shot loads in my standard 5" 1911 where I was using 24 and 26 lb recoil springs.
I still broke the feet off the barrel bushing.
This was in the early 1970's, before any of the above lessons were learned.
Thankfully I never had a case let go, as I only loaded these hot rounds in WCC 67 once fired cases...

Sometimes you can have just too much of a good thing.

Oh....

Do not take my above statement about the Glocks to mean I do not like them.

I do like them, a LOT. They are EXCELLENT FOR WHAT THEY ARE FOR.

I carried two of them 100% of the time as duty guns for several years.
I have shot several hundred thousand rounds through Glocks.
Only ever had one part break the trigger return spring. The gun still functioned. It was only discovered when I broke the gun down for cleaning.

First off a Glock uses a cam system not the same as the 1911 link less. Do any of you Own a 1911 link less? I do and the barrel slide fit is very good as is the accuracy. Lock time is much more important than a "ramped" barrel. The Peter Stahl link less designed 1911 is not lacking in accuracy.

Where do you guys come up with this? Comparing a Glock lock up to a 1911 link less is like comparing apples to grapes the only thing they gave in common is they are both fruits.
My 10mm 1911 link less does not lack in barrel slide fit or in accuracy.

I get my info from my gunsmith that has produced custom 1911s for me that shoots 1 hole groups where do you get your info?

quote:

jwp, what is your problem? I do not own a gun that is more accurate at 50 yards than my Colt Gold Cup with Kart barrel, or my Kimber Target Match with Kart barrel (in 9mm).

I guess you should expand your horizons to good revolvers or contenders. Don't you own any rifles. Just throwing out Crap

Nothing wrong with any 2 inch handgun at 50 but there are more accurate ones out there.

JWP,

That is very interesting. I have been playing with Rowlands and 45 Supers, for a lot of years now (the Supers only a few) and am curious about a couple of things.

First, in the linked 1911 system, you have the barrel lower lugs whacking on the frame abutment, and the slide spring tunnel whacking on the barrel bushing and slide rail front abutment. Both places are prone to breakage when the overall gun system is not addressed (as mentioned above). I have one Colt frame with a cracked dust cover, and did shear one set of lower lugs on a Rowland when testing without the comp.

Just wondering what stops the rearward motion of the barrel and slide in this system? I agree, the key I think is mitigating the rearward velocity of both parts, but these two impact forces have to be hitting something.

There are guys who are doing insane stuff with Glocks and the 45 Super. 250's and heavier, doing 1300 fps and faster. Way beyond what I would be willing to try with my 1911's. They seem to be getting away with it, and it certainly has me puzzled as to why the Glock system seems to handle it. perhaps it is a combination of the linkless system, and flexing frame? Some of their increase is the due to a slightly longer aftermarket barrel, but not all of it.

And I am a big fan of the 45 Super. So much so I bought a S&W 625 to compliment my Colt 1911. The revolver lets me bring a heavier and wider nose bullet into the game.

Craig

NE 450 your comments are well taken. My customized 1911 in 38 Super has the ramped barrel, comp, and full length guide rod. My 9x21's (EAA) are similarly equipped. My Kimber Pro carry in 38 Super is not comped, but then I am not trying to make major with it, either! Interesting that the early cases of "super face" were, I thought, due to the barrel unlocking too early. Was that due to a too weak recoil spring?
p dog, contenders are at a significant disadvantage in the timed and rapid fire stages!
Peter.

peter,

I have no knowledge of the 38 Super, but in working with the 45 Super and Rowland smilies, bulges or blown cases have nothing to do with unlocking. Purely pressure, case head and barrel support. As the 1911 barrel and slide are locked together, traveling to the rear as the bullet leaves the barrel, this does not happen.

The mod's that NE 450 noted are to keep you from bashing your frame, slide and barrel lugs to pieces.

Craig

Sorry Craig but it most certainly does have to do with unlocking. Unlock slower and the pressure is lower lessening the case of a blown case.

JWP,

I am having a hard time understanding that. In looking at high speed video of the 1911 going bang, the bullet is out the barrel before complete unlocking occurs. The slide and barrel, locked, move to the rear at ignition, the bullet exits and the barrel moves a slight bit more rearward, then drops down, unlocking.

In order for the case to rupture, there has to be extreme pressure going on. Once the bullet exits, pressure is zero'd out in the barrel. If a gun were unlocking while the bullet was in the barrel, would we not see some crazy stringing on the target as we increase pressure up to the point of bulges or blow out?

I have had exactly one blow out with my Rowland, very early on, more than 10 years ago. Mine was surely related to the big wide lead bullet getting crammed into the case when I was getting ker-klunk when feeding, and I ignored this. Also, I have never seen a blown out case that was not still in the chamber, with the barrel still locked in the slide. maybe I have not looked at enough pictures ;^)

Craig

quote:

Originally posted by Craig G:
JWP,

I am having a hard time understanding that. In looking at high speed video of the 1911 going bang, the bullet is out the barrel before complete unlocking occurs. The slide and barrel, locked, move to the rear at ignition, the bullet exits and the barrel moves a slight bit more rearward, then drops down, unlocking.

In order for the case to rupture, there has to be extreme pressure going on. Once the bullet exits, pressure is zero'd out in the barrel. If a gun were unlocking while the bullet was in the barrel, would we not see some crazy stringing on the target as we increase pressure up to the point of bulges or blow out?

I have had exactly one blow out with my Rowland, very early on, more than 10 years ago. Mine was surely related to the big wide lead bullet getting crammed into the case when I was getting ker-klunk when feeding, and I ignored this. Also, I have never seen a blown out case that was not still in the chamber, with the barrel still locked in the slide. maybe I have not looked at enough pictures ;^)

Craig

Craig, I'm beginning the journey with the 460 Rowland. May I ask you to PM some load info, please?

Cheers
Bruce

My 45 Super linked is locked over center and does not use a ramped barrel, my 10mm 1911 link less has a non ramped barrel and neither one leaves smileys on the brass. I doubt that you can see the difference but it is there none the less.

If the barrel was unlocking before the bullet left the barrel you would definately see verticle stringing on the target.

I still recommend a ramped barrel, with as much support as possible on the case.

Also a bushingless barrel, so the recoil spring can be held in place NOT by the feet of a bushing...
Also the heavier recoil spring can cause some problems with battering as it closes the slide with higher velocity.

Back in the day this was the only way people thought of to slow down the rear battering of the slide. Some also used the recoil spring guide shaft with the spring plunger in front of it, and later the shokbuff.

However now it has been learned that a higher power hammer spring, and especially the "flat bottomed" firing pin stop, caused more force to be necessary to opem the slide, thus decreasing the slide recoil velocity.

All these modifications WITH A COMPENSATOR,are what will allow you to increase the power of a 1911, with out battering it to pieces in short order...

You can get the flat bottomed firing pin stop's from Wilson Combat.

JWP,

I did see a few smilies early on with my Rowland fiddling. I think I have fitted 6 or 7, and even recut a Clark 45 acp barrel and comp to accept the Rowland. I could get them with top end loads (or maybe over the top ;^) ) with well worn brass, or with a fit that left the headspace on the large side. The excess headspace just effectively increased the unsupported area. That is why I tested with the cut and comped 45acp Clark barrel, to make headspace as low as possible. Works just fine.

But, I do not shoot the Rowlands much any more, as I feel the 45 Super is a better round. Can be driven just as fast if wanted, and it is easier to reload, as you do not have the extra case length to interfere with some bullet choices. I am playing with the Super in a 625 PC revolver now as well, and having a blast.....I keep looking at the 10, and maybe one day if I find the Super lacking.

Bruce, in all honesty, my loads pretty much mirror the official Rowland published stuff, except I have backed off a little. A 230 doing 1350 fps was typical of the reloading data when it came out. I loaded to that. Then along comes Wilson with their offerings, and some of the published stuff (and reloaded ammo) was backed off a little.

If you are going to do the 230/1350 type pressures, then I think the mods Nitro noted above are mandatory. I would also consider the check/fit thing that clark offer's cheap, as good insurance. With the 1911, my personal feelings are that 230/1350 pressures need to be on a carefully put together gun. Otherwise your gonna beat some part into submission. At some point.

I will happily have conversations with you via PM or even the phone if that would help, but my testing pretty much mirrors, reduced published, with either Power Pistol or Longshot. Most of my recent testing with heavier bullets has been in the 45 Super. The heavier bullets are a pain in the Rowland, unless you want to really get at the chamber throats. Done that as well ;^) Or you can go to a Glock, where the guys seem to be wooping the pants off the 1911, in terms of velocity. But not style......;^)

Craig

I know of several Glock 40's that have broken the steel recoil lug. These were all shooting factory ammo.

I have not heard of any broken plastic frames.

I have not heard of any broken in the 10mm or the 45 ACP Glocks. Maybe the part is enough bigger in the right places on the larger frames.

Everybody knows I am a 1911 kind of guy...

But even I will freely admit that a Glock is an EXCELLENT "utility" handgun...

Nitro,

Yes, I know of a couple of folks who I respect as far as handloading, and they are definitely going beyond in the Glock. maybe they would report issues, who knows.

The reason I tempered my Rowland and even supers in my 1911, is that I am running a Colt S70 repro that I have done a ton of work on. Not interested in trying to break this one. My most recent addition is a Kart EZ fit barrel that has really upped my accuracy. As it does not have a comp, no Rowlands (obviously) and my Supers are probably over Super book, but below where I know the super can go. I have done all the mods, and have worked up a load that that does not produce that vicious recoil torque you get with an uncomped Rowland. A 250 grain bullet at 1050 fps is a pretty potent load, as 1911's go.

And my Kart barrel is on the min side for headspace, has great upper lug fit and seems to purr right along with the other mods.

And I was one of those guys early on that thought more recoil spring the better. There is/was some insane stuff out on the web about 30, 32 or more weights. I like to think my understanding has improved, some. I have found that a 20 lb ISMI chrome silicon spring works as well as a 24 lb Wolff, as far as taking a set and controlling that little bit of lock pressure at battery. Much easier on the link and lower feet, as well ;^).

Craig

Thanks Craig. I'm in capable hands for the build part. For the 45-08/45 Super, a comped and ramped STI barrel is being used. Actually I'm using comped and ramped STI barrels for all 3, including the Rowland and 9mm Major.

Cheers
Bruce

.366torque

re; 9mm Major.

Many years ago, when I was shooting a lot of IPSC, a buddy of mine shot a 9mm Major.

Many times others tried to get his 9mm Major disqualified as unsafe, as a 9mm just cannot make major.

He always kept some 9mm's loaded up as MAJOR Major rounds, and would let them be shot through the crono, with out blowing his gun up, and then just say, my competition loads are perfectly safe in MY 9mm.

His 9mm was not just a regular 9mm barrel. He had it throated out so his bullets could be seated to the same length as 38 Super rounds.

He used 38 Super magazines.

9mm cases are very strong and a little tappered.

He never had ANY pressure or functioning problems.

When I asked him why he did just not shoot a 38 Super, he told me that the 9mm cases were dirt cheap, and many times he could even get them for free...

Bruce,

yes, it sounds like you are doing it the way I think is best, if you really want to step on the throttle, so to speak. I am sure I would have gone ramp if I had the tools to do one myself.

Are you actually doing the real 45-08 thing, with reamed brass, or did you use the term as a proper "namenclatue". I always thought that the concept had some real up sides, like keeping bullet setback when feeding, in check. Always wondered whether the extra thick brass would work against the powder capacity side of things.

Since we have hijacked so badly, another "thing" that I have piddled with is using a stock newer make Colt dimpled barrel for hotter loads. These barrels are not as aggressively throated for feeding, relying upon the groove to help feeding. My one example has a lot of case head support, and rhe ramp groove is not so wide as to create the room for smilies.

Craig

[45-08] [/URL]
[45-08] [/URL]

My stash of hundreds of, each, 45 Super by Starline and 45 Win Mag also Starline

I have the privilege of knowing Gunnar, he may not have invented the 45-08 but has done extensive work on it. He has passed the torch to Clarence, as far as pistolsmithing. Clarence is doing the work. Custom finishes will include bobtailing.
The above cartridges are loaded with 200 grain SWC hard cast, about 25 Brinell, with 12 grains of Longshot and a 210 GMM primer.

Gunnar sold one to a fellow who complained of severe recoil. Gunnar took a cart apart and discovered 14.3 grains of Longshot. The 1911 shot 30 rounds of that load and is continually digesting the 12 grain load without a hiccup.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
.366torque

re; 9mm Major.

Many years ago, when I was shooting a lot of IPSC, a buddy of mine shot a 9mm Major.

Many times others tried to get his 9mm Major disqualified as unsafe, as a 9mm just cannot make major.

He always kept some 9mm's loaded up as MAJOR Major rounds, and would let them be shot through the crono, with out blowing his gun up, and then just say, my competition loads are perfectly safe in MY 9mm.

His 9mm was not just a regular 9mm barrel. He had it throated out so his bullets could be seated to the same length as 38 Super rounds.

He used 38 Super magazines.

9mm cases are very strong and a little tappered.

He never had ANY pressure or functioning problems.

When I asked him why he did just not shoot a 38 Super, he told me that the 9mm cases were dirt cheap, and many times he could even get them for free...

Yep! Even here in Canada 9mm stuff is beyond cheap. I'm currently loading a bunch of loads to try out. The main bullet of choice is a true 124 FMJ. It's not copper coated, so it can take velocity.
My next winter project is to make the 460 Rowland into a switch barrel. The other barrel will be a 38 Cassull. Sucker is supposed to drive 124s at 1800+ FPS.

Bruce,

Thanks for the pics. I thought the 08 was mostly dead, I guess not. Cool. I keep telling myself I need to get some 45 Win Mag brass just for goofing around, but I am afraid if I do I will end up with another gun.

Sounds like you are on the speed side of things, I tend to fall into the heavy bullet side of things, but all of these calibers/guns seem to work well, either way.

Craig