How effective would heavy caliber rounds (454, 460, 475, 500) be against people? Not with special hollowpoint rounds, but with full-power loads you would use to hunt big bear, cape buffalo, elephant. Has there ever been any instances of someone using a more than 44 magnum handgun against a person?

I think they would be VERY effective. They can take big game down with no trouble, so a human would be a piece of cake -- so to speak. A big, heavy flat-point would do lots of damage. They're just not practical concealed carry weapons........plus, over-penetration would be a real problem. I'll stick to carrying my measly .44 mag.........

Exit in the rib cage of a 6X7 Bull Elk with a 440 grain flat point hard cast from a 500 JRH at only 950 FPS

It is clear that they would be very effective, but overly penetrative.

I should have been more specific. I wasn't thinking of home defense specifically. I was thinking more of a scenario where you are in the woods hunting large, dangerous game with one of these rounds and you stumble across a drug dealer, escaped psychopath, or whomever and your big revolver is what you would use. Overpenetration would not be as big an issue in the wild as it would be inside a house.

Our military once had [~ 1870 ] a 50 cal, 300 gr at 600 fps. A 44 cal at near 1000 fps is a proven performer. Anything larger is better.

quote:

Originally posted by Scorpulus:
I should have been more specific. I wasn't thinking of home defense specifically. I was thinking more of a scenario where you are in the woods hunting large, dangerous game with one of these rounds and you stumble across a drug dealer, escaped psychopath, or whomever and your big revolver is what you would use. Overpenetration would not be as big an issue in the wild as it would be inside a house.

These rounds will drop any big game animal, even a crazed man.
The rounds you mentioned were not designed as personal protection, but hunting game. Big holes kill.
Anyone hit with one of these rounds would not live long.

If you are hunting in the woods with a big-bore handgun,I would think you wouldn't opt for a smaller caliber because of an encounter with a predator of the two-legged variety. Will it work? In a word: YES. In two words: VERY WELL!

quote:

Originally posted by Scorpulus:
I should have been more specific. I wasn't thinking of home defense specifically. I was thinking more of a scenario where you are in the woods hunting large, dangerous game with one of these rounds and you stumble across a drug dealer, escaped psychopath, or whomever and your big revolver is what you would use. Overpenetration would not be as big an issue in the wild as it would be inside a house.

Location of the encounter does not change the size of the wound one of these big bores will create. A 2 legged or 4 legged opponent will not react well to a 2 or 3 inch diamter hole in them.

Scorpulus

Have no doubts, these big bore, high power revolver rounds will knock the snot out of any ill-willed man who means you harm.
With the heavier loads, there is a high probability of one-hit incapacitation, even if your attacker is wearing body armor.

The force of hot loads from any of the listed rounds can knock down and knock unconscious armored and 'street drugged' men even if the bullet somehow doesn't make it through the body armor.
Although body armor exists that can stop even heavy 500mag loads, it's so highly unlikely that some pot grower or crank lab operator in the woods would have it or want to wear it (bulky, heavy, cumbersome, EXPENSIVE) isn't even a consideration.

To put it in a nutshell, heavy and hot 454 on up, you're likely going to be fine, as long as you get the drop on whoever it is threatening your life. Consider that they have friends out there with similar agendas too, and that they know the very local area very well.

The best plan always is to keep yourself out of a gunfight in the first place.
Know 'environmental' signs to look for and steer clear of areas that may appear to lead to such an encounter.
Perhaps others here can chime in with other examples, but as a 'for instance' on signs of trouble on the way, I've seen such things as irrigation rigs and infrastructure that was *obviously* not official department of forestry installations, ground clearing and trees stripped of limbs for quite a height, but not all the way to the canopy level, small trash dumps deep in the woods...
really anything that is obviously out of the ordinary in areas known to have illegal grow or laboratory operations.
Keep your eyes up and remain aware of the 'nature of things' and when the scene starts to look funny get out of the area and back to known safe land.


-Tinker

No doubts here!


<graphic time>


I've seen how nasty wounds from a .357 Magnum with hollowpoints can be, and have seen several from a .44 Magnum (a third to a half of skulls shattered.) I haven't seen any, but, as a former lab geek, I could safely say that wounds from really big bores, especially with hollowpoints, would be noticeable.

Consult your history books. Was the 45/70 Gov't, .58 Minie ball, or .75 caliber roundball from a Brown Bess effective in the anti-personnel role? These were rifles, rifled muskets, and muskets of course, but the horsepower offered was similar. Your superpower hunting revolver will suffice should you stumble upon a fight in the middle of nowhere.

Well said, nordrseta!!

Just look at the history of the 1911 45acp with military hardball and start from there.
Even with the round nose it has been well proven that a 45 caliber hole through someone is an effective fight stopper.
With a meat chopping flatpoint I cannot imagine anything from that power level on up would not take the wind out of someones salis pronto.
Especially if you were wise about it and went for Head, central nervous system or pelvis.

Exactly, bucko! No need for hollow-points, that big, heavy hardcast WFN you use for taking game would work wonders on reversing someone's bad intent!

Not that I disagree, because I don't, a heavy loaded big bore revolver cartridge will certainly do the job, it's just not ideal. Fast follow up shots will be more difficult, thus a handicap, and if one has the oppertunity, handicaps are to be avoided in a combat situation, so I'd rather be armed with a .45acp for the purpose being discussed.

That being said I feel well armed in the field with my heavy loaded .41 mag. Certainly in the field I am much more likely to have to deal with a irrate cow than a human adversary. Besides the .41, .44, 480, or .50 S&W, or whatever will do in a pinch if things aren't rushed in a combat situation.

No doubt, Larry -- not ideal, but it will work in a pinch and work quite well assuming no quick follow-up shots are required.

Why would anyone think that a "hollow" point is need or for that maker even wanted is beyound me.
Hello, did you not see the size of the hole blowm through the Elk Ribs with a flat point hard cast at ONLY 950 FPS? A 45, 475, or 500 are large enough before you ever pull the trigger.

Wake up smell the coffee.

Flat Points are where the smart money lies.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Why would anyone think that a "hollow" point is need or for that maker even wanted is beyound me.
Hello, did you not see the size of the hole blowm through the Elk Ribs with a flat point hard cast at ONLY 950 FPS? A 45, 475, or 500 are large enough before you ever pull the trigger.

Wake up smell the coffee.

Flat Points are where the smart money lies.

I could not agree more.

quote:

Why would anyone think that a "hollow" point is need or for that maker even wanted is beyound me.

I've never understood that concept either.

I think combat shooting technique and weapon/ammunition selection is a bit of a veer off the original course of this thread which Scorpulus noted is more of
'would big game revolver/ammo work well against violent a-holes one might stumble upon in the game field'
than a
'should one consider using big game revolver/ammo as primary self defense against violent a-holes'
thread.

So, veering with y'all in this momentary threadjack regarding hollowpoints and violent a-holes, my understanding of their design and application in modern defense/tactical ammunition is to keep the full force of terminal energy in the target, which is marginally contrary to the mission statement of a flat nosed 'punch' bullet.
My understanding of the flat-nosed 'punch' bullets in high energy cartridge design is to get in there, do a lot of damage, and leave through the other side, giving a good PAIR of holes for maximum blood loss and trail.

The end results can be similar, but with the above (assumed) design premise of the hollowpoint self defense/tactical bullet, the concern is more of a maximum application of STOPPING FORCE, (killing potential is obvious).

Hollow points on big game don't make that much sense to me for hunting, especially when you're using a big bore in the first place.


--Tinker

I don't buy into the energy-dump theory in the least. An expanding bullet is designed to make a bigger wound channel than the original diameter is limited to. If the bullet doesn't exit on the off side, to me it has then penetrated very poorly. Not exiting is attractive to law-enforcement types as you are limiting the damage to the one who has been shot and not endangering someone who may be behind the shot person. In this case I can see where someone doesn't want an exit, but the name of the game with a big flat-nosed bullet is two big holes and a lot of destruction in between. I have posted this photo before, but here it is again. This is a 200-lb hog I shot last year (the one in my signature photo). The photo shows the offside shoulder area and you should notice that the leg is missing. This is because we pulled it off with a gentle tug while skinning the animal. A WFN does a horrendous amount of damage on animals.

I am just wondering why someone would ask a question like this #1 At all #2 In a hunting forum.The only Druggies in the woods are dead and dumped already!!!!!Just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
I am just wondering why someone would ask a question like this #1 At all #2 In a hunting forum.The only Druggies in the woods are dead and dumped already!!!!!Just my opinion.

I disagree, first of all one is liable to run into a druggie anywhere, even while hunting. There have been cases of mayhem perpatrated in areas where one might consider unlikely. Drug dealers often use isolated locations to produce meth, or to grow marajuna, so encouters are surely in the realm of posibilty.

That being said, the answer to the topic orginator's question seems a bit obvious to me, but if he had questions that's okay, we can all learn from each other.

Iam going to disagree a good jacket hollow point at a decent vel. preform better against human targets better then the big bores.

All the shooting data out show that they have a higher percentge of 1 shot stops then the big bore soilds.

Not that a big bore will not work it just that against human targets there are better options out there.

And how many statistics exist about the .454 Casull, .475 Linebaugh, .500 S&W, etc. used in gunfights? I'll bet little to none. I carry a .44 magnum and it is stoked with 240 grain semi-jacketed hollow-points. Having see what heavy hardcasts do to flesh, I'll bet ducks to dollars that the 420 grain WFNs I shoot in my .475 Linebaugh would be a much more decisive stopper. Not trying to be argumentative, but the statistics don't exist on these calibers, so we can't compare stats on one shot stops of past shootings. If more people carried .44 magnums, I'll bet that the 125 grain JHP .357 mag wouldn't be the king of the one-shot stoppers (don't know if it still is, but it was for a very long time).

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Iam going to disagree a good jacket hollow point at a decent vel. preform better against human targets better then the big bores.

All the shooting data out show that they have a higher percentge of 1 shot stops then the big bore soilds.

Not that a big bore will not work it just that against human targets there are better options out there.

Exactly what data are you refering to? Certainly not anything from the International Wound Ballistics Association, because the President,(Martin Fackler) believes the larger caliber is better as long as one can shoot it accurately.

How much have you ever seen shot with a 454, 475, or 500 with a wide flat point? Not much I'd venture judging from your responce.

Flat point hard cast don't work, yea right!

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Iam going to disagree a good jacket hollow point at a decent vel. preform better against human targets better then the big bores.

All the shooting data out show that they have a higher percentge of 1 shot stops then the big bore soilds.

Not that a big bore will not work it just that against human targets there are better options out there.

There might be better choices for people that can't handle heavy recoiling guns, and don't want excessive penetration, but noting would work better than a big bore.

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Iam going to disagree a good jacket hollow point at a decent vel. preform better against human targets better then the big bores.

All the shooting data out show that they have a higher percentge of 1 shot stops then the big bore soilds.

Not that a big bore will not work it just that against human targets there are better options out there.

There might be better choices for people that can't handle heavy recoiling guns, and don't want excessive penetration, but noting would work better than a big bore.

Exactly

Yea we all know them big holes work...

Whitworth

I think we're in agreement here, for what it's worth, my personal carry piece is a .45acp 1911.
Plenty for Downtown Oakland.
Back when I got my grounding and training in tactical pistol, the 45acp was king of the one-hit stop.

The only hollowpoint bullets I have in stock for my heavy big bore hunting revolver are for plinking and practice at the ranch.
Still, I know for sure that they don't make men tough enough to stand up to more than one hit from that thing. It just doesn't matter what the bullet is shaped like, they're bloody huge, heavy, and fast.


--Tinker

I too would carry in parts of Oaktown! The 1911 IMHO has no flies on it and the .45 ACP is my choice of cartridges in an automatic. It was designed as a stopper, and stop it does! Good choice, Tinker!

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Matherne:

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
I am just wondering why someone would ask a question like this #1 At all #2 In a hunting forum.The only Druggies in the woods are dead and dumped already!!!!!Just my opinion.

I disagree, first of all one is liable to run into a druggie anywhere, even while hunting. There have been cases of mayhem perpatrated in areas where one might consider unlikely. Drug dealers often use isolated locations to produce meth, or to grow marajuna, so encouters are surely in the realm of posibilty.

That being said, the answer to the topic orginator's question seems a bit obvious to me, but if he had questions that's okay, we can all learn from each other.

Well I am guessing you are assuming they will not be armed.Their weapon of choice will be a AK 47 or Uzi full auto.Better make your first shot count.Most meth labs and Pot patches in the woods would be booby trapped to begin with.I think this is a totally stupid Scenario.I would say the best deal would be to back off and call DEA or some form of LEO`s in.Just cause you carry a piece ,dont mean you will be able to use it.Ever been in a Firefight????Probably not.Yes a big bore revolver will do the job. Happy?????It is just not the right tool for the application.

OLBIKER -- but it may be the only tool that you have.......the scenario is irrelevant IMHO, as the question is whether or not a big-bore hunting handgun will be effective against a predator of the two-legged variety and I can say with some certainty that it would do the job with aplomb. The likelihood of running into a meth lab or pot patch would entirely depend on your geography and not beyond the realm of possibility. Not saying it would happen, but it could.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
OLBIKER -- but it may be the only tool that you have.......the scenario is irrelevant IMHO, as the question is whether or not a big-bore hunting handgun will be effective against a predator of the two-legged variety and I can say with some certainty that it would do the job with aplomb. The likelihood of running into a meth lab or pot patch would entirely depend on your geography and not beyond the realm of possibility. Not saying it would happen, but it could.

Exactly, Matrix & Pratt the 2 Bank Robbers that were involved in the famous shoot out with the FBI in Miami got much of their ammo and guns as well as the vechicles used in the robberies from people that were recreaction shooting in the everglades. The 2 would kill them and take what they had, so the scenario is indeed possable and the big bore is a formable weapon and enough cover to stop one of those bullets would indeed be difficult to find

Some points to add to the discussion.

Geography does make a difference.
Here in California, we have some of the most remote, rugged, beautiful big game hunting opportunities in the states.
Many of these areas are also ideal locations for illegal grow operations and laboratories.
It's getting worse every year.
The bulk of these outfits are staffed by the worst of the worst illegal immigrants. They're shipped up there, given little support, have extensive south-of-the-border cartel/gang experience, and will kill to protect their plots.
That's just the way it is.

You don't go out in that country packing for a gunfight with a dumbass. If your head's on straight, you go in packing for bear, because there's a very strong black bear population in most of these areas, and anything less is..,

...well go where you please prepared for whatever you want to prepare yourself for. That's your business.

For the sake of the original poster's interest, the high energy, big bore (and he's talking hotter than the .44 magnum) revolver loaded with real-for-real hot hunting loads will do, so long as the hunter has any business carrying the gun in the first place.
And it's not going to make a rats ass of difference what bullet's seated in their cartridge of choice, the dumbass is going to fall hard if the hunter gets the jump on the dumbass.

Furthermore, and I think most importantly, the hunter is best served staying the hell out of a gunfight in the first place, and as he should be doing anyway while in the woods, keeping his wits about him and his eyes open is his best defense in the long run.


--Tinker

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
OLBIKER -- but it may be the only tool that you have.......the scenario is irrelevant IMHO, as the question is whether or not a big-bore hunting handgun will be effective against a predator of the two-legged variety and I can say with some certainty that it would do the job with aplomb. The likelihood of running into a meth lab or pot patch would entirely depend on your geography and not beyond the realm of possibility. Not saying it would happen, but it could.

I am not saying a Big Cal.Rev.will not do the job.It certainly can.I am saying a prudent person should back off,if they can.I concede that anything can happen anywhere at anytime.I carry a 1911A1 when ever I go any where.Even if I am Deer or Bear hunting with a differnt weapon. Its easier to be always ready than wish you were.Its wisere to avoid trouble if you can ,than leave a widow and children. "Im just sayin" OB

Ducking out and away is certainly the prefered response, than engaging in a shootout -- couldn't agree with you more. But sometimes you have no choice -- and your 1911 is a great choice!

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Matherne:

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
I am just wondering why someone would ask a question like this #1 At all #2 In a hunting forum.The only Druggies in the woods are dead and dumped already!!!!!Just my opinion.

I disagree, first of all one is liable to run into a druggie anywhere, even while hunting. There have been cases of mayhem perpatrated in areas where one might consider unlikely. Drug dealers often use isolated locations to produce meth, or to grow marajuna, so encouters are surely in the realm of posibilty.

That being said, the answer to the topic orginator's question seems a bit obvious to me, but if he had questions that's okay, we can all learn from each other.

Ever been in a Firefight????Probably not.Yes a big bore revolver will do the job. Happy?????It is just not the right tool for the application.

Chill, I am happy, first of all I was just saying that the topic starter had a valid question, bad stuff can happen in the woods. Of course you back off if you can and call police unless you're not given the option. I already said that their are better firearms, handguns for the job in this scenairo. So we agree, and yes I have been in a firefight and I recommend that they be avoided if possible.

I disagree, first of all one is liable to run into a druggie anywhere, even while hunting. There have been cases of mayhem perpatrated in areas where one might consider unlikely. Drug dealers often use isolated locations to produce meth, or to grow marajuna, so encouters are surely in the realm of posibilty.

That being said, the answer to the topic orginator's question seems a bit obvious to me, but if he had questions that's okay, we can all learn from each other.[/QUOTE]

Ever been in a Firefight????Probably not.Yes a big bore revolver will do the job. Happy?????It is just not the right tool for the application. [/QUOTE]

Chill, I am happy, first of all I was just saying that the topic starter had a valid question, bad stuff can happen in the woods. Of course you back off if you can and call police unless you're not given the option. I already said that their are better firearms, handguns for the job in this scenairo. So we agree, and yes I have been in a firefight and I recommend that they be avoided if possible.[/QUOTE]
I know of those who have used revolvers in gunfights in times past. One very good shot, reported shooting a chicken at 125 yards on a bet with .38 Spl revolver with 158 round nose load, wounded all his attackers, but didn't survive the gunfight. IF he had a .45 ACP revolver or better still an automatic he was proficient with, things might have turned out differently. Back in my younger, unknowing, days when .45 ACP round nose ball was the only commonly available load, I carried a .44 Special with round nose soft point factory Remington. These days JHPs are so much better it isn't even funny. I am very glad to have an 8 round 1911 Kimber instead of a 6 shot .38 Special S&W Model 10. Anyone remember dump pouches as the standard reload for a carry revolver? Thanks for all the information on big bore flat nose bullets. I have a batch of Barnes .500 caliber hollowpoints I'd like to try in my 500 Linebaugh on deer size game. I may just try my "target" load instead, 450 grains at 900 fps would seem to be a pretty good starting place.

In a police study the 357 Mag. with 140 gr. Federal plus P hollow points won hands down..The study was based on police confrontations over a number of years. Surprisingly the 9mm with the border patrol plus p plus came in second and the 44 magnum 3rd.

The officer that conducted the study wrote a fantastic book on the killing power of most all pistol calibers based on actual shoot outs..I have that book someplace around her and will furnish that information as soon as I find it..

However it only went up to the 44 magnum.