OK guys, I need soem input from the peanut gallery. Long story, but I have soem fairly serious health problems and bear season opens September 1. I was born right handed, have always been able to shoot with eather hand, and have shot pistols exclusively with left hand for past 3 years.

Here is my problem: I can't figure out how to shoot a rifle by September 1, and can't use my right arm at all for any support. My left arm is very weak and I don't have that great of control over it.

I have a 4" .44 mag and a 3" .357 mag, plus my buddy has a .44 mag I can use if needed. My .44 is one of the original Mountain Revolvers from 20 years ago. it is light and recoils straight back and I can't imagine shooting it with one hand. My buddy has a Super Blackhawk, which he says rolled much better in the hand and feels much softer to him.

So if you were me, what would you do? Shots will be 5-20 yards and I will be hutning form a stand. On a bear with an empty weight of 200#, how do you see the .357? I see it as much lighter than optimal, but then my personal state is not optimal.

What bullet would you use in either the .357 or the .44, and where do you get them?

I haven't cast bullets in years and don't have time to make anything, so I would need to buy online. I am thinking a hardcast bullet similar to the LBT WFN design. I don't know what to do and am really stressing about it!

This is not going to be an easy one, but the 357 is out, unless you want to do a lot of tracking and still risk not finding the bear...even more risky if you have a hard time holding the gun steady. The SBH does roll in the hand...a lot and shooting it one handed could hurt your hand, making your problems even more so. However, with the longer barrel, there may be some help in using the SBH instead of the short barreled S&W, which has its own issues, like the short sight radius and a shaky hand. There is a stick, like a pair of safari sticks made just for steadying a handgun. One end wraps around the barrel(a rubberized loop) and the other end rests against your waist. It is really a good set up and I have one I will send to you to use if you think it will help you. The name of it is "Bipod Shooting Sticks" and comes in a stretchy case that attaches to your belt. I will have to look to see if I have any other info like who makes them or where to buy one. You could try mine if you like. PM me your addy and I will send it right out. BTW, you could unfold it all of the way and use it as a bipod too.

Woody

Stay away from the .357, it is not even good for deer. The .44 Ruger with a 320 gr LBT WFN or WLN boolit will do good. Even a 300 gr Hornady XTP should work. Use 21.5 gr's of 296 with the LBT and 20.5 gr's with the hornady.

Yes, a 300-320gr hardcast would work, such as the ones from Montana Bullet Works or Cast Performance Bullet Company, however the jacketed Nosler Sporting bullets work very well too. The 300gr Nosler jacketed Sporting HP you could get from the "shootersproshop.com" and they have their 300gr 2nds(cosmetic blems) at 15.95/100. I have shot some huge hogs(350lbs) with these and there is no blackie going to stop one of these bullets. The Nosler 240gr soft point is good too at $35/250. A bit less costly than most of the hardcast bullet companies out there, but Montana B. W. is the place to get good hard cast at reasonable costs if that is what you want to use. Good luck on your hunt.

Woody

Cast Bullets will punch the hole that you need .
A hard cast will break both shoulders and keep going. Buffalo Bore has some stout 340 cast shells that they sell , only used in rugers and SW's also Dan Wessons. Must be a quialty Pistol
They are for the .44 mag.

The Bipod Shooting Sticks are 32.95 + 6.95 shipping and the phone # is 1-800-979-6878 and the website is bipodshootingsticks.com , of course. Mine are the 40" set, to see how they work go to the website and hit the 40" icon, then hit the additional photos and that will show you why they may be your answer to the one-handed revolver issue. My offer still stands.

Woody

blaser, remember he is shooting one-handed so the recoil from a heavier bullet could be harmful to his already weak shooting hand. What if he needs a follow up shot? I say use a bullet that is not too heavy but stout enough to do the job. A 300gr hardcast at 1100fps would be the heaviest load I would recommend, but that same bullet at 950fps would be ok too. Remember, a 200-300 blackie, not grizz.

I have never hunted bear, so my advice to you will be purely from a mechanical perspective. If you are up in a stand, I will assume that you will be resting the hangun and therefore you will have a steady platform to shoot from. I think .357s are light for medium sized game, so I would look at the .44 as the only viable option here. Recoil with a stout .44 mag load might be too much for you in this weekend physical state that you are currently experiencing. I shoot Double Tap's 320 grain .44 loads in my S&Ws and let me tell you that they are stout in the recoil department -- not Casull stout, but they let you know they are there. I would think that if you have access to a Super Blackhawk that it would be a better choice for taming recoil. I too would opt for a heavy cast bullet. Maybe Buffalo Bore loads a slower, heavy cast bullet load (I haven't checked). At those ranges you don't need anything real fast -- just accurate and heavy! Good luck, and we all look forward to hearing about your hunt and what you decide to use!

yep your right , I forgot his hand was weekened also. I think it's true you should shoot as heavey a bullet as you can shoot accuratly. Atleaset a 300 gr.

I'll be a stand, and none of the bear stands have sides or rails on them. They are all a bare platform of some sort. Shooting sticks are definitely out. I don't know what I am going to do. This really sucks

Marc -- if you are sitting, there surely must be some way t steady the handgun -- on your knee, perhaps?

He says his shots will be from 5-20 yards. Do you really think the 357 ain't enough? I think the 357 will be just fine. Shot placement is the key! Wait for your shot and drill him!

The 357 was king when it first came out and it seemed like everything on the planet was killed with it. Now it seems like it ain't even good enough to kill a stray cat!

Marc, let me send you my "sticks" and see if they work for you. I am sure they will help as I have used them to steady my Encore handgun with success. It can't hurt to try them. If they don't work out, just send them back. Check out the website I mentioned above to view the sticks in action (40").

ammohouse,I would agree that the 357 is capable, but marginably so. If push came to shove and I had to use that caliber then only the 180-200gr hardcast from either DoubleTap or Federal (Castcore)would be used. BuffaloBore and Cor-Bon are usually not very accurate and are hotter loads. All could be had from midwayusa.com for a reasonable cost.

Woody

Marc

Here is what I would recommend.

First: I would borrow the Super Blackhawk. It is a softer shooter on the hand than a S&W.

Second: Ammo. If you can get some of the Buffalo Bore 44 Mag 250gr Keith bullet loads in time for your hunt they should work. They are his low recoil load with a 250 gr bullet at @1200fps.

If you cannot get them in time try the Federal Cast Core 300grainers, or the Speer 270 SP.
They are easier on your hand than the full power 240gr factory loads.

If you reload a 240/250 grain cast bullet at 1100 to 1200 will probably shoot right through the bear, you do not need a nuclear warhead to kill a bear.

Third: Aiming at the bear.

I would take some thin rope that I could tie to the stand/tree across my front. Then I would rest the bottom of the frame on this rope as I aimed.The rope needs to be the correct length and tauntness, and at the right height to use with the pistol in the firing position of course.

It might also be possible to use a foam covered piece of wood adjusted as above.

Many tree stands have an "aiming bar" for just such a purpose.

I would practice this before the hunt.

Good luck on your hunt.
Let us knbow what and how you do.

Thanks for the advice guys. I am really panicing about this and it helps to read different ideas. I know several people on this board, and they know my physical situation. There have been a lot of seasons in the past where I had to get creative to be able tunt, but bot as creative as it will be this year.

I shoot every red squirrel I see in the yard and always use an iron sighted .22 rifle. I shot one a few days ago with my .22 Ruger Bisley, shooting free hand with my left hand. Took me 6 shots to get him, but thos of you who live in red squirrel country know how small those little boogers are. It was difficult, but I was able to hold the Bisley stead off hand.

My buddy has some light 200gr .44 handloads and I am going to squeeze a few off with my left hand. I am a little nervous because my left hand and arm are so weak. If I can pull it off, I think I am going to order some hardcast ~250gr bullets with a wide meplat. The kick in the nuts is that I had sevaerl hundred hard cast Kieth bullets Icast over 10 years ago, but I melted them down earlier this year because I needed some lead. I know wider meplats are better than the Kieth profile, but they would have done the job for me.

I am still having a panic attack over this.

update-

My buddy had some "light loads" loaded upw/22gr Nosler HP. I shot them 1 handed just fine. Judging by the powder he has on hand, I am guessing it was a startiing load with Uniqe. So looking in a manual of mine I would say ~900fps.

What velocity do you reccomend for me to shoot with hard cast bullets? I am going to look for something with a wide, flat nose in the 250-280gr range. I am going to check out the sources mentioned here and order some bullets in the next couple of days.

Also, I only have large pistol primers and no magnums. I grew up reading Ross Seyfried every month and remember reading him talk about heavy .44 loads. He said that Elmer Kieth taught him to use standard primers. Do people stll do this?

Thanks for the help and encouragement! Since Day 1 of my life folks have told me I couldn't do this or couldn't do that. I politley tell them to kiss my ass and then go do it twice. I do it the first time to prove them wrong, then do it again to prove it was not a fluke. I really do want to thank y'all for helping me with this. My hunting season has never been in more danger than this year, and I am freaking out about it.

edited to ask one more question. I saw the reccomendation for heavy Nosler HP's in this thread. I grew up reading that hardcast lead w/wide meplat was the way to go. Have pistol bullets progressed enough to make jacketed HP's work? What about the Nosler Partition .44 or the Barnes X? Thanks!

I have only hunted black bear a few times and never with a handgun, however one of the posters on another board named JJ Hack who is a big game guide in both Alaska and Africa says don't use cast bullets for hunting black bear...a well constructed jacketed HP into the lungs/heart does much better. JJ has been in on or has killed hundreds of black bear doing control work in the Oregon/Washington area I believe.

One very long post he did described the effects of shooting a blackie with a HP as the bear being stung by a bee. They usually bite at the entrance wound and don't go very far once hit. Punch a hole through a bear with a hardcast and they can run a LONG way.

If you want lesser recoil and better penetration Remington has a 180 grain Jacketed Soft Point. There is also the Federal Power Shok 180 JHP and Speer 210 Gold Dot HP....

Just some thoughts...Bob Makowski

RJM-

you were posting as I was editing my above post. Do you know where I can read the thread?

Marc, There are lots of very good jacketed hollow points that would easily stand up to the biggest blackie. The same for jacketed soft points. The ones I tried and had very good success with on 350lb hogs are the Nosler Sporting 300gr HP and the Speer 270gr Gold Dot soft point in both my Super Blackhawk Hunter and my Colt Anaconda Hunter(Realtree version). The 240gr XTP's did not hold together in my testing so I did not use them, however maybe the 300gr XTP's would be better. I would not be afraid to use the partitions or the x-bullets but I have no experience with them. The 300gr Nosler HP cut a big hole...all the way thru. The Speer 270gr Gold Dots go thru as well, but they don't deform as much so the damage done is less devastating looking. I would think the 240gr Nosler soft points would be good too...but I would stay away from the 200gr XTP's or 210gr Gold Dots...the light hollow points are just too frangible in case you hit shoulder bones. Now the skinny on hardcast making for long tracking jobs...this is the bullet where you want to hit bone as it helps with the shocking factor and the amount of collateral damage done by the bone splinters. It is best to avoid lung shots with hard cast because they will only punch a small hole in and one going out. They are made more for penetrating thick skin/bone mass than devastating wound channels thru soft tissue...but they will still get the job done.

All I use is a Federal 150, standard primer in the .44 even with heavy loads of 296. Also in the .45 Colt but need the mag primer in the .475.

I have used the Federal 155 and the CCI 350 and have wised up some and just use the WLP(Winchester Large Pistol) primers. They can be used for standard or magnum loads. Simplifies life a bit and I found they make for better accuracy in my revolvers.

Marc,

I've only killed eight blackies with a pistol but perhaps my experiences can help you draw a conclusion.

As an aside, the quickest kill I've had was with a bow, broadside 25 yards, Bear SuperRazorheads, complete pass through double lung just above the heart. The bear ran 20 yards and went unconcious midstride, fell over, and died. I was astounded. The arrow went further than the bear!

Two bears were struck with hardcast flatpoint .44s across the chest - in the heart and they both ran about 30 yards and flopped in stride. No bones broken, death by hemmorage. Very clean and satisfying.

Two were shot in the neck, both with .454 and 350 grainers, anchored at the shot, required finishers. Quick but a bear with a broken neck can still move it's jaws! (One walked right past me on a trail that I'd stepped aside of to take a break. Shot was at about 2 yards so I didn't want it going anywhere! The other was right below my treestand at dusk and I wanted to anchor it.)

Two were shot facing the pistol, entrance on the front of the shoulder. Both ran about 50-60 yards and died kinda hard. One was with a 300gr FP hardcast and the other a 300gr XTP, both at 1200MV. I traced the XTP and lost the bullet in the fat of the rear quarter. 36" of penetration. No bones broken. The hardcast broke the shoulder and exited the side of the paunch.

The final two were initially hit low on the shoulder broadside and both went beserk. Luckily, one stayed in the open and got shot across center of mass three more times. It died very hard but pretty much where it was first hit. The other almost got away but I managed to spine it as it lurched off. Both were with a .454 and 350 grainers.

The conclusions I've drawn from this and about 30 other kills of my friends' are:

1. Bears are fairly tough - a lot tougher than your average whitetail - and really go beserk and move out when you break a leg. Like Craig Boddington points out so appropriately, a 300lb bear is built a lot stouter than a 150lb 2 1/2year old buck. Even though they are build stout, they appear to be quickly susceptable to hemmoragic shock. Therefore, don't shoot specifically to break the shoulder, if it happens to be in the way and your weapon can handle the shot, excellent, bust it, but, instead, focus on putting the bullet through the heart and lungs!(low and forward in the ribcage) If I was unable to shoot a .44 accurately, I wouldn't hestiate to shoot stout 158s or 180s out of a .357 and carefully place my shot. A .357 will never be the gun a .44 is but that doesn't rule it totally out.

2. A .44 Mag with 240-300 grain hard cast flatpoint at around 1200mv, will break one major bone mass (shoulder, spine, hip) but probably not two. I've had this happen three times recently with 300 grainers (in an elk and twice in a bear). It will penetrate 3' plus in flesh but not if a major bone is struck. Maybe at 1500mv? (but not out of my 5" S&W!)

3. A .454 with 350 grainers at 1400-1500 will break a major bone structure and still penetrate over 3' in flesh. But, a bear with a broken shoulder and no holes in the lungs is a POed buzzsaw with a lot of fight left! Even two broken shoulders won't stop them as evinced by a .358 Win killed 325lber of my buddy's. He HAD to shoot it again as it plowed and pushed itself into the brush.

4. Comparing hogs and bears is somewhat useful in determining how a bullet will perform but pigs seem more delicate when broken bones are involved and a lot tougher when lungs are hit. I'd have to guess pigs have a lower blood pressure to begin with and especially those gristly old boars, don't seem to feel much of anything.

In your circumstance, it sounds like you're not limited to the .357 so I'd highly recommend a .44 with a 240gr Keith type SWC at around 1200mv. It'll break a shoulder and get into that important boiler room. A 800mv load would be fine for a ribshot but I don't know how well it would stand up to a shoulder bone. A 300 grainer at 1200 is just a bit more insurance but that extra 60 grains still won't turn your .44 into the killer that the .30-30 is (and I mean that!)

I'm sure there are some good jacketed slugs out there but I have no experience with them beyond the one with a .44 cal 300gr XTP and a few Freedom Arms flat points which act like a hardcast.

PLACEMENT, PERFORMANCE (of the bullet), and POWER, in that order...

Good luck on your hunt!

Mike Fairbanks

Mike, very informative post.

Very good post, Mike. I too prefer hardcast bullets over jacketed expanding bullets. I have limited handgun hunting experience with jacketed bullets, but the hardcasts just penetrate farther and I really feel that expanding bullets don't as they lose momentum opening up, therefore they need more speed to get as far. That said, I also feel that a .44 magnum makes a pretty large hole to start with and that penetration to the vitals should be the primary concern.

I also think that 1200 fps is plenty. I am happy to see that you are writing your own rules, Marc -- that inspires me!

Thank for the compliments guys!

I got to thinking I might have been a little windy and didn't answer Marc's question but in the last few years a few experiences with pistols got me to thinking about their proper application and I felt like pipping up.

For me, I look at a pistol, primarily magnum type revolvers - hand rifles aren't my thing, as a weapon that kills by hemmorage, very similar to a broad head arrow except that with accurate shooting, the useful trajectory is around 150 yards and you can ignore large bones as an obstacle to penetration.

No pistol is a powerhouse but like Whitworth points out, they penetrate well and even without expansion, leave a pretty big hole for blood to flow out. Linebaugh made the analogy "a revolver is a long range punch press" and I think that about sums it up for me.

I got into handgun hunting in the late 80's, about the time the SuperVel euphoria had worn off and SSK and LBT and a few others were starting to tout hardcast flatnoses. Never really got interested in trying out all the new jacketed bullet designs that have emerged first with the Black Talons and XTPs and Gold Dots and now the Noslers and Barnes and Swifts. I'm sure they are best in class for some application but I did spend a lot of time and effort exploring paper patched slugs and two part cast soft noses and never really noticed any significant terminal improvement over a big fat flat nosed hard cast slug rolling along at 1200+. Funny how things swing back and forth while the good old flat nosed SWC has been quietly and steadily punching deep holes through game.

Amen, Mike! Expaning bullets just seem to impede penetration, and I want complete pass through so that the animal bleeds from two holes.

Great posts! Lots of food for thought for anaspiring pistol shooter.

Tired to order 300gr .431" WFN gas check bullets from Montana Bullet Works. Took 2 days to actually talk to them and even then I felt like I was a pest and they were doing me a favor to even talk to me. Said the bullets were cast, but they had about 30 orders ahead of mine and it would be over a week before they could think about shipping me anything. I had already told her i have serious health problems which nosedived 2 weeks ago, and hunting season starts next week. She was not phased by any of that. DOn't think I will be dealing with them any time soon.

Cast Bullet Perfomace was great to talk to on th ephone, but said their bullets for th e.44 only went up to .429". In a SBH with .431 throats, how doe sthat sound? Sounded too small to me. I am not worried about accuracy so much as a good, stable bullet when it hits.

I have to order other reloading stuff from Jerrys Sport Center tonight and will buy a box of the 300 gr XTP's. But I would liek to have a box hardcast to test as well and then I could pick which one I liked of the two.

Does anyone know where I can get some hardcast .431" 300gr WFN, preferably with a gas check?

Or does anyone here have some of those they would sell me and mail to me quickly?

If I can't get some ammo I would have to stay home and watch TV. Can't see that happening!

Hello Marc,

I checked out Cast Performance Bullets online and they list a 300 grain WFNGC at .430 for $23.00 a box of 100. You can call them at (503)556-3006 or go to their website at www.castperformance.com -- is this the same company???? If they really are .430 I should think they'll work fine.

Also, Grizzly Cartridge company makes a 300 grain load at 1325 fps -- which might be a bit too stiff.

That may be what she said. I am taking a lot of meds tonight for the health problems and I am not 100%. Right now all I can remember is that they were smaller than the Montana bullets.

So .430" bullets in a .431 throat is fine? I have not cast bullets in about 20 years, and beack then it was for auto pistols and rifles, so I was not worried about throats vs. bores. I don't need super accuracy, as 20 yards would be an incredibly long shot. I expect it would be in the 8-12 yard range. But I also don't want soemthing that is unstable and may tumble. Does this happen with undersized bullets, or is poor accuracy the only issue?

THnaks!

Don't really know what to tell you, Marc. Anybody want to chime in on the undersized bullet (.430 with a .431 throat) issue?

It's never as cut and dry as a certain throat dia will require a certain bullet dia, what really matters is the barrel. So long as the barrel doesn't have the dreaded constriction where the barrel threads into the frame, I wouldn't sweat .430 or .431" bullets.

As an asside, my .408 has .478" throats, and is penominally accurate with .475" and .476" cast bullets. My 357 blackhawk has the dreaded barrel constriction and won't shoot cast bullets no matter if they are .358" or ,359" from it's .359" cylinder.

As to the original question, I'd say a 270-300 gr cast with a large meplat @ 1000-1200 fps will do the deed. Given your physical constraints, I'd taylor the load towards what you shoot more accurately. A 270 gr @ 1000 fps in the boiler room is much more deadly than 330 gr @ 1300 fps through the foot. Also consider what powder you are using, as it has an effect on recoil. I'm thinking blue dot will work on the lower end loads, and recoil will be much milder than H-110 top end loads.

I was just thinking a padded Camera Tripod might be just what you need.I used one several years ago when I had dislocated my shoulder.I used it with a BLR.Worked fine ,shot a nice Deer.Good luck. OB

To ease your mind, I shoot the 320 gr LBT .430 boolit from throats larger then yours and have too many 1" groups at 50 yd's to list. At the distance you plan on shooting, don't worry about it.

You hear that Marc? Place the order!

Paul H,

Excellent suggestion with using Blue Dot vs. the slow ball powders!!!

I've noticed the very same thing about recoil. Blue Dot loads run up into the 85% range of maximum performance but are a lot more of a "pop" than a "boom".

This reply is for something to think about on the long run; I am the last one to make any comment about handgun hunt so I will just repeat what I had found, written by experienced folks:

357 will do it but for serious hunting handgun, correct caliber starts with “4â€. So, if you are looking for a good handgun, capable of taking black bear, consider 41 Magnum. It’s way more capable than 357 and it is not as punishing to arms as 44, yet 210-220 gr bullet at 1200-1300 fps will do it.

Now, my personal experience; in order to minimize recoil effect, I would highly recommend Ruger Bisley. Here are few; http://www.americanweapons.us/modern_handguns.htm , http://www.hoosiergunworks.com/catalog/firearms.html . I tried a number of SA revolvers, ranging from old Ruger Flattop and Blackhawk, to TLA No. 5 and FA, yet nothing fits my hand like Ruger Bisley. Its grip is designed to allow revolver to rotate upwards, thus minimizing recoil effect and reducing its transfer to hands. Another advantage of Bisly grip is that it is better suited for medium size hands than all other SA revolvers, except TLA No. 5, but this one is very rare on the market. Some folks prefer Super Blackhawk, some FA, but I would add that some top custom smiths would not build 475 or 500 revolvers on anything but Bisley. Just my .2 cents. Good luck.

I hedged my bets and ordered a box of Hornady 300gr XTP/HP bullets and a box of 300 gr .430 WFNGC from Cast Bullet Performance. Neither have come in yet. I have just been practicing with a .22 and a little yesterday with a .38 Special. Will likely shoot some light .44 loads on Sunday, contiuing to shoot the .22 each day until then.

Thanks for the suggestions!!!

Good luck, Marc. Keep us posted with your load development.

marc good luck. i picked up on this late,
good thread ,i'd just thought maybe a winchester trapper or a ruger 96-44 or the auto.
all are compact and fast on point. dan