I currently have a Raging Bull in 454 Casull. A very good gun, but I don't like how bulky it is and I also don't care for the extra barrel weight(8 3/8"). I'm wanting to get something different, and was concidering a Super Redhawk. However, I've always liked single actions. The Raging Bull was my first double. I've been considering a BFR but don't know much about them. I would like everyone's opinion on what they like and why. Please no agruments about what gun is better. I just want some input to help me make my decision.

Mine are FA's. Precision crafted, accurate and as light as I'd want.

Mine are FAs as well.

Essentially you have two choices in single actions in .454 Casull: Freedom Arms and Magnum Research (BFR). THis is in no way an attack on FA, so don't read anything into my comments. Personally, I would go with the BFR -- lots of bang-for-the-buck, very strong, and every one I have shot has been accurate. They are heavier than the FA83 and therefore won't kick as hard. BFRs are the best deal in big-bore single actions available. If your pockets are deep and you could consider the FA and you won't find a better fit and finish. Depends on what is important to you. For me it is a hunting tool.

ill take the other side of the argument. To me it would be a FA hands down. You can find used 454 FA guns for under a 1000 bucks all the time if you look on the auction sites and guns america. A used FA gun will hold its value much better then a new bfr will. Fit and finish is a notch better and to me theres the pride in ownership. I know that doesnt count for much with some guys but then very few of them will not pull there guns out to show them off when company comes over

Find someone that has some 454 Casulls and handle them. You are the only one that has to like it.

Thanks for the input guys. Probly going to go with the bfr. I can't justify the price of the Freedom Arms. Is the scope mount on the bfr a good solid one or does it seem like an after thought? I'm not real big on scoped revolvers but if I change my mind I want the gun to have solid mounts and not an awkward add on. That was one advantage the Super Redhawk had. Kinda wish Ruger chambered the SBHunter in .454

quote:

Originally posted by wheelgunner:
Thanks for the input guys. Probly going to go with the bfr. I can't justify the price of the Freedom Arms. Is the scope mount on the bfr a good solid one or does it seem like an after thought? I'm not real big on scoped revolvers but if I change my mind I want the gun to have solid mounts and not an awkward add on. That was one advantage the Super Redhawk had. Kinda wish Ruger chambered the SBHunter in .454

The BFR is a great handgun, I own 2 of them, a 45-70 and a 500 Mag. The scope mount is top quality in my opinion.

Doesn't the FA .454 have a 1:24 twist rate?

what? is the FA bashing going to start again? I dont care what the twist is, come and shoot my little 4 5/8s 454. It will put most loads into a ragged hole at 25 yards and i stick my nose up in the air when the groups get over an inch. Ive had many custom and factory built guns and ive had a total of ONE gun that has shot better. That was the 475 John linebaugh built me. It was the first gun he built me and i was foolishly talked out of it by a buddy. i wont argue the your bfr might shoot as well but it dammed well wont shoot better and i dont need a fricking wheelbarrel to tote it around. I had a bfr 480 and if i wouldnt have allready had the pleasure of handling quite a few custom guns i would have probably been impressed. Its a step about your average ruger but its surely not in the same class as a custom from one of the top smiths or a FA gun. I didnt like the fact that it was so big,blocky and heavy. I didnt like the fact it didnt have a cross pin to hold the base pin in. I didnt like the fact that it didnt have the ears on the grip frame to help hold it to the frame, just the two screws. I detested the ill fitting rubber grips. How did it shoot? cant tell you that. Three days after i bought it it was brought to the local gun shop where it sat for almost a year before i sold it at a 300 dollar loss. The day i dropped it off was the day i ordered that 475 from john. It was the best gun move i ever made. By now id bet ive got a bunch of the bfr guys stirred up and am going to get flamed real badly. I dont really care. I dont hate bfrs or think there junk. There kind of cool in a way. they let people who are on a tight buget or someone who is not like me who lives and breaths sixguns to afford to buy some of the neat big bore guns. There plently strong and will last a lifetime. I just think of them more as rugers then in the same league as a custom or fa gun. Kind of like comparing spam to a t- bone both will fill you up but which would youd rather have.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Doesn't the FA .454 have a 1:24 twist rate?

Lloyd,

I don't believe Whitworth was bashing the FAs. There's no need to get your dander up on this.

The Ruger has a 1 in 24" rate too. Just need to find the right length boolit and velocity. Can't go overboard with weight. Actually it is drive length and a semi wad cutter has the shortest length for it's weight so a heavier one can be used.
Just depends on the boolits you want to shoot.
Since most guns are rifled for those funny condom things in factory loads, you can't stray too far even though most guns will top out in accuracy with a heavier boolit then one would think.

Wow! I asked a legitimate question. HE ASKED ABOUT A SINGLE-ACTION, PRODUCTION .454 CASULLS AND THERE ARE ONLY TWO OF THEM - THE FA OR THE BFR, SO WHAT ELSE ARE WE GOING TO TALK ABOUT OTHER THAN THESE TWO OFFERINGS?

So, does the FA .454 Casull have a 1:24 twist, or is this an off-limit question?

Okay, everybody step back and take a deep breath. It's a beautiful sunny day here in MS and we don't need another argument to mess it up.

It takes very little effort to look up the specs and find out that FAs have a 1:24 twist and the BFRs have a 1:20. My T/C Scouts have barrel twists that would indicate a patched round ball should not be accurate in them. Patched round balls eat out a ragged hole at 50 yards with mine.

bfr is right, matching the proper bullet to the firearm and particularly the intended use is very important. That is a subject broad enough for it's own thread.

Now, just to add a new flavor to the recipe, if he's looking for a .45 caliber bullet and not just a Casull; he can look to the .45 Colt and do about 85 to 90% of what the Casull can do. A 300 to 325 grain cast bullet at 1,000 to 1,200 fps doesn't care what the headstamp says. Neither does the game that is shot with it.

Lloyd, I know you feel the BFR's are nothing but big Ruger's but that is not so even though parts are cast by Ruger and all the parts are Ruger.
The fitting and barrel, chamber, throat dimensions are EXACTLY right and make Ruger's look sick.
They are the best, most consistently accurate revolvers ever made between a Ruger and a custom gun. They are the guns Ruger should have made to start with.
I love Ruger's but any new revolvers on my budget will be BFR's. I wish they made a .44!

OK GUYS IF YOU READ MY INITIAL POST THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID NOT TO DO!!!!! I don't care who thinks what gun is better I just wanted imput on what makes them different. Freedom Arms is financially out of the question. It seems the Freedom Arms fallowers have the same attitude the Harley guys do. This turns me off of both. Thanks for the helpful info every one. Now lets all go find something to do besides argue......Jeff

my appologys to witworth and the rest of you guys. I heard before that so people think fa is wrong with there barrel twist and i thought he was taking a cheap shot at them. Must have been a bad morning.

Not a problem, Lloyd. I really was simply asking a question. No harm, no foul.

thanks for understanding. Im allways the one trying to stop these arguments and here i jump right in your face for nothing.

Actually. MS made an interesting point about the 45 Colt. I believe that the 454 FAs are priced relatively low because they are 454s and not 475's. So, what does the 454 buy you, over a 45 Colt? To be quite honest, my 45 Colt (Ruger) with 300 grain lead bullets and a healthy dose of H110 is quite a handful. I would be reluctant to buy a larger gun unleass the benefits were very clear. NB. I am not a member of the "mine is bigger than yours" club.
Peter.

Yes, that is a good point and you are right that the Casull really doesn't offer much if anything performance-wise over a properly loaded .45 Colt, save for muzzle blast and recoil. But he wants a Casull, so we discussed Casulls...... My Casull handloads don't even go much over 1,300 fps........

I've used hot 45s. Take deer with them. I like the higher velocities of the 454 for the longer range trajectories(spl).

quote:

Originally posted by wheelgunner:
OK GUYS IF YOU READ MY INITIAL POST THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID NOT TO DO!!!!! I don't care who thinks what gun is better I just wanted imput on what makes them different. Freedom Arms is financially out of the question. It seems the Freedom Arms fallowers have the same attitude the Harley guys do. This turns me off of both. Thanks for the helpful info every one. Now lets all go find something to do besides argue......Jeff

I can give you a fair evaluation of the 2 refvolvers in question. I own 6 Freedom Arms revolvers so when I give you the negatives of them it is not because of bias against them

First off the Freedom model 83 (which is the model that I own) is not 100 percent safe to carry withh all 5 cylinders loaded. This should have been corrected years ago IMHO. The BFR is 100 percent safe to carry with all cylinders fully loaded. The Freedom revolver is very strong 9indeed, but I believe thst the BFR is Stronger due to itsd size.The cyli8nder ins longer in the BFR and this givesa a greater margin of error if a bullet jumps crimp. The bullet needs to move very little inorder to tye up the model 83. Both are accurate in myn experience and either will serve you well and as Loyd stated A Freedom model 83 can often be found for around 1,000 dollars and that is how I purchased mine both Premier and Field grade mode3ls.
Which ever one decides is fine by me.

Whenever I've handled the BFR's I've gotten the impression that they were FAR too heavy.

FA's seem to be just right and balance nicely. The BFR's are just unbalanced and heavy in my hands.

NO denying the BFR's are built STRONG as heck.

FN in MT

Well, just for grins I went out to guns international, gun broker and guns america. I did not find an FA in 454 for anywhere close to $1000. They were all much more. Have they gone up recently? A Premier grade in 454 for $1000 would be a nice gun indeed!
Peter.

Peter i agree totaly with you on the 45 colt coment. Ive preached the same thing for years. A cast bullet does its best work between 1100-1300 fps. and a 45 colt will do that. I own a 454 just because its another big bore caliber to play with. I picked up mine a 4 5/8s field grade with premier sights about like new for 800 bucks last summer. I piced up another 7.5 inch ported one with a scope mount for the same this year. that one was traded at the buddys gunshop and still may be available and i would guess hes asking around a grand for it. I just picked up a 4 5/8s premeier 475 thats like new for 1300 so theres deals out there if you look.

Lloyd is spot there are deals out there if one is patient and willing to look

quote:

Originally posted by Lloyd Smale:
Peter i agree totaly with you on the 45 colt coment. Ive preached the same thing for years. A cast bullet does its best work between 1100-1300 fps. and a 45 colt will do that. I own a 454 just because its another big bore caliber to play with. I picked up mine a 4 5/8s field grade with premier sights about like new for 800 bucks last summer. I piced up another 7.5 inch ported one with a scope mount for the same this year. that one was traded at the buddys gunshop and still may be available and i would guess hes asking around a grand for it. I just picked up a 4 5/8s premeier 475 thats like new for 1300 so theres deals out there if you look.

How much will that bullet drop at 100 yards at 1200 fps?

best way to find out is to go shoot it and see.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
best way to find out is to go shoot it and see.

exactly...

Well , since I have one , I guess I can comment . The FA is the kind of pistol I will be packin for the rest of my life ... They are built so strong I don,t see how I can wear it out ... I have never shot a BFR but would like to have a few of them ....
I myself like all the velocity I can saftly get any more....At least for when dealing with bears .... so I may have to stay with Belt Mt ,Punch Bullets as I have shattered cast bullets @ 1425 fps .... I would prefer a free wheeling cylinder .....As I,m planning on scoping mine I wish it was set up like a Blackhawk Hunter .. If it had a short barrel I would wear it in a shoulder rig and put a Burris fast fire on it ,,,Perhaps this summer I will go up to a 475 or 500 caliber but chances are I will stick with the Freedom Arms ... I would probably be smart just to stick with the 454 ...

If you can't stop a Bear with a 45 cal 360 grain WLFN hard cast at 1200 FPS 1600 ain't going to help....

How many times have you done this so you can say so authoritatively .......... Not tryin to start any thing , but , if Waterrat or 458 Win said that I would ask their reason and give good credence to their reply .. They have been around the killin of alot of bears .. Have you ....Same with Bear Guide and Forty one six ,.,., and probably several other bear men up here ....... Providing the bullet holds together and stays straight on the more velocity available the better ..............

Well I have been hunting with a handgun since the high school ( the late 60's) and I recieved my and hunted with my first 475 in 1988 the first year that they were available.
The Bear on the left came in on me and my hunting partner while we were working on a Moose kill, Jimmy shot first with his 338 Win the bear went down and emediately got up and I shot a 390 grain LFN at 1300 FPS from my 475 Linebaugh and hit the Bear at the rear of the rib cage with the bullet raking forward into the chest cavity and all 4 feet went straight out spread Eagle style at the shot and that was that.


At first I like you thought the moore speed the better, but that is not the case. You have allready experience bullet problems associated with speed.
Your 454 works wonderfully well with wide meplat flat point bullets. According to Dr Martin Fackler President Of The Internal Wound Ballistics Association and former Head of tThe Army's Wound Ballistics Lab in order to acquiree consistent secoundary wounding a minimum of 2000 FPS is require and you are not going to get that with a proper heavy wieght bullet from your revolver
I have also found that the 500 Linebaugh ith 525 grain WLFN at 1100 FPS is an extremely good killer and penetrator. The 50 Alaskan shooting the same bullet at 1850 FPS didnot penetrate as good on game nor was it more effective. Keep in mind I am talking about large game with enopugh body mass to soak up any additional hydrolic pressure cause by increased velocity

This exit wound in the ribs of a 6X7 Bull Elk was inflicted by my 500 JRH shooting a 425 flat point hard cast with a meplat width of 78% of bore diamenter at 950 FPS




This Buffalo was taken with one shot from a 500 Linebaugh and the bullet exited and that is not the norm even from rifles



John Linebaugh has said any faster than 1200 FPS is not needed. Dustin Linebaugh took Bear in Alaska with a 420 grain flat point hard cast loaded to 1200 FPS at 168 yards (If memory serves on the distance.

My 6.5" Raging Bull 6 shooter isn't bulky at all...although I always use a 2 hand hold. Souped up 45 Colt loads do the trick for me here in PA. Unfortunately no black bear has come in front of my sights yet. But It'll get another chance in 2 weeks. For me, double actions are way more comfortable than those plowhandle cowboy guns. But that's just me!

..... I am still pretty hooked on all the speed I can handle well .. So mfar the 320 gr Belt Mt Punch Bullet has out penetrated all the other bullets I have tested . I have some 400 gr bullets to test .....

On the other hand , I wouldn,t be all that paranoid using a hard cast @ 1200 fps , and the nice thing about the bigger bores is a heavier bullet can be used at a moderate velocity for most everything ......

But when it is my life and those with me like my wife , I want all the speed I can get .....

When I used 320 gr LFN .429 cal bullets on a bear that left the muzzle @ 1200 fps , tho they worked as far as I didn,t get bit , I was very unimpressed......................

Your hunting partners results with a bang and bounce bear using the 338 is not uncommon ..... But at least it knocked it down ..

quote:

Originally posted by wheelgunner:
I currently have a Raging Bull in 454 Casull. A very good gun, but I don't like how bulky it is and I also don't care for the extra barrel weight(8 3/8"). I'm wanting to get something different, and was concidering a Super Redhawk. However, I've always liked single actions. The Raging Bull was my first double. I've been considering a BFR but don't know much about them. I would like everyone's opinion on what they like and why. Please no agruments about what gun is better. I just want some input to help me make my decision.

When you're in the universe of hand cannons, your revolver will be big and bulky. You can shorten the barrel -- my SRH 480 with its 4.75-inch barrel should arrive tomorrow. But it and FA Model 83 475s with 4.75- and six-inch barrels still weigh 50 ounces unloaded, give or take.

To render the revolver more convenient to carry -- I think this is really what your goal is -- reducing barrel length will help some. Researching/investing in well-designed gun leather is a superior method to achieve your goal.

Hope this helps.

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
..... I am still pretty hooked on all the speed I can handle well .. So mfar the 320 gr Belt Mt Punch Bullet has out penetrated all the other bullets I have tested . I have some 400 gr bullets to test .....

On the other hand , I wouldn,t be all that paranoid using a hard cast @ 1200 fps , and the nice thing about the bigger bores is a heavier bullet can be used at a moderate velocity for most everything ......

But when it is my life and those with me like my wife , I want all the speed I can get .....

When I used 320 gr LFN .429 cal bullets on a bear that left the muzzle @ 1200 fps , tho they worked as far as I didn,t get bit , I was very unimpressed......................

Your hunting partners results with a bang and bounce bear using the 338 is not uncommon ..... But at least it knocked it down ..

I have never been as impressed with any bullet out of a 44 mag as I am with the 360 WLFN out of the 45 cal. revolvers. Speed is not what makes these big bore handguns work on big heavy large game. It is the large wide meplat with enough bullet wieght and speed to drive deep and the wide Meplat creates a large wound channel. I witnessed a 425 grain Wide Meplat hard cast bullt out of the 500 JRH drive completely through both shoulders of a 2000+ pound Longhorn and a 500 FMJ solid (round nose) from a 450 Nitro #2 hit the shoulder a took a hard left turn and wound up in the rear hip after missing the vitals and the animal show no ill effects from the shot despite around 2200 FPS velocity. Proper Meplat and straqight line penetration is VERY effective from a big bore revolver. I believe that the more experienced big bore handgun hunters are not after more speed. There is certainly nothing wrong with a punch bullet.

Sat in the tree stand this afternoon with the 8 3/8" .454 Raging Bull and my .45lc Vaquero to compare both and experiment with different positions. Also walked a ways with each in their own holsters (don't ask me why I didn't try this before). shooting both revolvers in identical situations leads me to believe that the single action is a better fit for me. I am able to hold it more steady for a longer period of time. I've taken both guns shooting before but never actually sat in a stand and mimicked a true hunting situation with both guns. I pretended I was taking aim on a deer that wasn't offering me a oporetune shot thus having to hold aim for awhile. I was able to hold the Vaquero steady quite a bit longer than the Bull. It's far easier to holster too. I've made up my mind to go with a single action.

Now I can't decide if I should go with a BFR .454 or save the cash and find a .45 Blackhawk. I'm thinking I'd like the scope option and I like having the option of more speed mainly for trajectory, but....if evidence proves that I'm not gaining much over the .45 maybe I don't need the .454.......decisions...decisions...decisions

You guys keep on discussing, your helping more than you think.

well, definitely stick with the 454, you can shoot the same loads as in the 45 colt but have the option of using some real laser beams (for a pistol) out there like my 240 grain loads well over 2000 fps and my 260 grain loads that are over 2000fps as well.

the bfr is so far above the ruger it's just not a contest. they've undergone a number of improvements since the occurence lloyd speaks of.