The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Handgun Hunting What combination of bullet weight, and velocity will push a .475 or .510 bulletGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
nose to tail on a hog, a BIG hog? I've wondered for awhile how heavy you have to make a .475 or .510 hollow point, and how fast it has to go, to get side to side, or end to end penetration on a wild boar/pig? It would seem to me you'd need a very heavy bullet, if the bullet expands to 1.32"(2 bore), like this one did:  | ||
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Regarding the .475, I don't consider any bullet lighter than 350 grains and with the .500 Linebaugh, 400 grains is as light as I go. I do use the 400 grain XTPS and Gold Dots, but as far as the .500 is concerned, no need for anything other than cast unless elephant are on the list. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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Nose to tail? Big hog? .475? 420 grain LFN, WFN, or WLN -- no expansion necessary. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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yup im with witworth and hitman. i really dont see a good purpose for jacketed bullets in either. Only way my opinion varys is id dont have a use for a bullet lighter then 380 grain in the 475 or 420 in the 500. Id much rather hunt with say a 420 in the 475 or 480 in the 500 idled down to 1100fps then a lighter bullet going fast. | |||
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Amen to that, Lloyd! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Well, my mold throws a 350 LFN, so I can't really say I have no use for something I cast. It's a really good bullet for chipmunks; I just can't seem to get 50 or so of the critters lined up at one time. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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Want me to teach you?  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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My bullets are getting blunter, but I can't get my picture in the pages of American Hunter. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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MS HITMAN: AT LEAST WE ARE TALKING ABOUT BIG HOGS, SO WE ARE ON THE SAME PAGE.  | |||
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Greg, We're talking pretty much anything and everything. If I feel the burning desire to shoot a 275 grain projectile, it will be .430" in diameter; a 325 will be .452". I see no need for such light bullets in the heavy calibers and certainly no need for further expansion. They are "expanded" before I ever pull the trigger. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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Have you looked at yourself?  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Enough out of you, Mr. Peanut Gallery -- you need to actually hunt hogs to make such comparisons. I am much hairier. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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For some unknown reason, some folks like to run light-for-caliber bullets and yet want to talk about maximum penetration. If recoil is the reason for lightening the load, I recommend slowing it down, and not running a lighter bullet. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Prepare for war, pray for piece. I can think of a number of situations where I would want to make maximum effect on stopping the impending attacker, be it dog, man, cat, and still be able to follow up with another shot. My SA revolvers are my favorite go to guns, and, having 6 feet of penetration is not required for self-protection. I'm not concerned about meat damage, either. Everybody makes a big deal about bullet expansion in the lesser calibers. Wow, that .45 expands to .80". That Speer bullet expands to nearly 2 bore size, and, that is a HUGE deal. You have a gapping hole, and high velocity. Now, the question is how much extra weight do you need to get through your target? I would think being able to carry a sidearm that hits like a rifle would be a major advantage in certain areas, and situations... By the way, last time I heard, my .475 might be going hog hunting. More on that next week. Still wish I had Marko's 454...;-) | |||
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I just have to ask, what seems to be your oposition to heavier bullets? The .475 was designed around a 420 grain bullet and in my opinion, it is at its best with a 420. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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NO objection. Tailor the bullet to the target. Paper, doesn't really matter, as long as it's cheap enough to shoot. Defense: 420's would be great if someone made one of pure lead with a gas check. 420's hard cast are, to me, hunting rounds for very good sized game. Odd that no one makes a JHP in a 420 grain. Hornady settled on 400 grains. Maybe they figure they need a certain speed, 1300 fps, to insure expansion? Besides, just because John L. and Ross Seyfried designed the .475 to be the best penetrating handgun round possible doesn't mean you can't use it for other functions. Ross loaded .45 Colt rounds, and designed the big guns for one reason, to take cape buffalo, with a 345 grain bullet at 1550 fps. Sure would have been a waste if that was all I ever shot out of that Seville, since that combination was real hard on the body, the gun, and the shooter. Marko: Why is it there has to be only ONE way to use the big guns, YOURS?;-) I've slept with a single action revolver under my pillow for my guess is near your lifetime. For that security blanket to be any good, I need to be able to shoot it a lot, don't need it to penetrate much more then minute of bad guy, and, I really don't want a 420 grain bullet running around the nieghborhood after it's zipped through said bad guy. I also need to get out and shoot the darn gun. That means the ammunition has to be reasonably priced, and, it means the gun has to not beat the tar out of my now senior citizen discount age body. I am looking forward to the FA 83 in .500JRH. I'm going to shoot a LOT of 440's at 950 fps. | |||
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There is no one way that I am advocating, but you seem to be running away from its most prolific loading. And it was designed to hunt big game with. If you are primarily a paper puncher, I can see no shred of logic in using an expensive-to-load, hard-kicking round like the .475 Linebaugh, .500 Linebaugh, .500 JRH, etc. Ross didn't design the .475....... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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this is my take on it. Ive killed quite a bit of game with 475s and 500s. As big as buffalo and as small as rabbits and lots of pigs deer and black bear thrown in. I shot one bufflao with my 475 marlin 94 using a 350 wfn and it did kill it but my thoughts go this way. I just dont see a need to go through load developement for a jacketed bullet of any kind as cost is to high to buy them. My idea of shooting a gun is to shoot it. I rarely go to the range without at least 200 rounds in a given caliber. If a guy is going to master a 475 he needs to shoot the snot out of one and the only way i can do that is with cast bullets i make myself. My other argument is why cast a 350 grain bullet or use a jacketed bullet and go through the bother of working up loads for one for deer hunting and then have to start all over if im going to hunt bigger animals. I can work up a load for a 400-430 grain lfn and it will kill them all. It will kill a deer just as dead as the lighter bullets and penetrate good enough to hunt anything in the world if it comes up. I will usually run a bullet in that weight at about 1100-1200 fps. Recoil is stout but not wrist breaking and the pressures are low and loads like that are much easier on the forcing cone and the lock work of the gun then shooting jacketed or even cast light bullets at warp speed. the whole self defense thing is kind of silly. I dont know of any sane person that is going to use a 475 as a personal protection gun in the house. Ive got news for you a 350 grain jhp is going to zip through a human body like its air and is going to go through thin drywall just as easily. these guns are designed for big game hunting not consealed carry, self defense or varmit hunting and they work best with a big hard cast bullet. You can use whatever you like in your as its a free country but just dont think youve come up with a better idea. It may be a workable idea but its like running a high compression engine on regular gas. Sure it will run but its not giving you the power and reliability you paid for. | |||
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by the way last year we shot a couple buffalo and some sheep with 500 linebaughs using cast hps and they perfomed misserably. Granted this was a big bullet with a big hp cavity but when they hit animals they acted like big parachutes. We were only getting about 6 to 8 inchs of penetration on buffalo. So dont think just because your using a realitively heavy bullet that your insured good pentration when it expands. A bigger bullet when expanded is much larger then say a 44 mag that has expanded and will tend to penetrate less. | |||
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C'mon Lloyd, quit holding back and tell us what you really beleive. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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inaccurate. Guys are a lot older then I thought... For nearly 30-40 years, we all wanted something more then 45 heavy colt, or, the 454 casull. I don't really give a flying f.... what you think of why I want these guns. I want them, since for nearly 40 years, I've advocated for these guns, and, they finally came about. I have about 25 pages of letters I wrote to Linebaugh, and, vice versa. I want these guns because I want a .475 FA 83 under my pillow. That is just as valid as what ever you are using them for. I would rather have a .500 caliber bullet,/barrel in stainless, focused at some one coming into my room then anything else. My intention for my firearms has NEVER been far from home. They are for self-defense. That requires lots of rounds through the gun, and, a good load for the gun. Sorry, didn't realize everyone's as old or older then I am... | |||
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Woah -- dial it back a notch or two, hotrod! Lloyd is my elder, bfrshooter is my elder, and jwp475 is my elder. You, not so much. I was already honorably discharged when J.L. began building guns. I am flattered that you think I am so young -- thank you! I have correspondence with Hamilton Bowen and Linebaugh as well, from the same time frame (late '80s, early '90s), but I fail to see what that proves. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Lloyd speaks the truth. A good 420 gr cast, WLN, RNFP or a WFN boolit in the .475 is accurate enough for target, clanging steel to 500 meters, super on deer and will still kill anything that walks. I do not want to see empty jackets from my boolits. Lloyd only made one mistake when he said the .475 will go through the drywall---it will also go through maybe two of your neighbors houses or if it hits your truck in the drive, it will also take out the engine. It has no mercy and will kill anything else in it's way. It is as wrong a home protection gun that you can get. I don't want to live in the same neighborhood with someone keeping that thing under a pillow. | |||
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I guess i have to bow down to you. Thank you for helping make the linebaughs possible for us. I know john and dustin personaly myself and im sure they were greatfull for all of your help. By the way im the guy that invented the internet so i want my due respect too 
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Personaly id about just as soon get shot then to crank off a full power 475 load inside a house. Hopefully you dont have anything you need to hear for about a week afterward and hopefully no one i know is your neighbor.
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_____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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As for the rest, thank you for your comments, clarifications, and experience. It's nice to see that everyone has a solution with the big guns that has worked for them. Lloyd Smale: I gather from your observations that you have concluded that you can't get a heavy enough bullet, with a HP design, due to the parachute effect, to generate enough penetration for heavy game? What about light game? Deer, etc.? | |||
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they work fine on thin skinned game like deer. Kind of an overkill though. A solid lfn or keith in a caliber that big will dispatch a deer just as well and do less meat damage in the process. Playing with and shooting animals with cast hps is fun but ive come to the conclusion that when the gun gets bigger then 45 cal they can create more problems then they cure. | |||
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What difference would it make if I was in my 20s or 30s? This is the handgun hunting forum, and by your own admission you have never hunted. That would make you the junior member here even if you were 80 years old. We come here to share experiences, debate, solve issues, and yes, sometimes argue. But if you are seeking advice, you shouldn't react by lashing out if you don't like the answer. JMHO. I agree with Lloyd, expanding bullets in these large calibers work fine on thin-skinned game. But definitely not necessary. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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I don't like a boolit that expands too much even on deer, they are better for chucks and chipmunks! A cast just a little too soft about destroyed the whole shoulder on it's way out. Nice thing about cast is I know what to change for next season to get perfect results without meat loss. This can be done with cast, reach a balance for each animal. Best is to shoot a heavy boolit with a decent meplat at the proper velocity and just make them hard.  | |||
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Thank you all for your responses. bfrshooter, that is an excellent picture, and certainly illustrates your point. I understand now much better why as hunters you all like cast bullets in the bigger calibers. Cheap, easy to load and tune, less meat damage, etc. Common ground seems to be that the bigger calibers kill much better then their increase in diameter would indicate. | |||
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You start a thread asking about a soft wide expanding bullet for ened to end penetration on hogs.
Your post is answered and answered correctly, you change to self defense ues against 2 legged preditors. Please note that Accurate Reloding has a self defense FORUM and a SHOOTING FORUM.
External ballistics 101 the faster a soft bullet is pushed the less it penetrates. About 2 years ago a poster started a thread in the big bore rifle forum about a hog that he took with his 600 OK (Over Kill) with a 900 grain bullet at about 2300 FPS. The soft bonded core Woodliegh over expanded and did not exit with a BROAD side shot. Once the wound channel is large enough for swift incapacitation a larger one makes no difference in incapacitation time, the wide meplat hard casts in the big bore revolvers have more thatn enough wound channel _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Thank you for confirming my conjecture. One thing that has always bothered me is the actual increase in bullet diameter when going from .357 to .475, after the bullet expands, doesn't seem to be that different. Common for HP's to expand to .70-85" in .357 to 45 calibers. I've also noticed that at 1300-1400 fps, a lot of cast bullets do have the front expand, as pressure forces it back, causing the caliber to increase from .475 or .500 to more along the lines of .80". Yet I've never had anyone say the .45 ACP kills like a 375 H&H rifle, or why their is such a huge difference in effect when moving from .45 to the .475 or .500's. ? Fackler has noted that the wound channel caused by a lead, 300 grain bullet, 41 caliber, @ 1300 fps, equals that of a .223 rifle. Why do you think these rounds are so effective? | |||
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What some of the other posters here are putting forth is a simplified distillation of decades of reading, experimentation, application, discussion, and more of the above. The volume of printed material alone on the subject could fill many shelves of text book sized volumes. Several decades back you have Elmer Keith, Frank Marshall and others experimenting with cast bullet designs for accuracy, performance on game and long range stability. Most of that distills down to a relitivly large meplat(flat nose) of 60-70% of the diameter of the bullet, and heavy for caliber bullets. But that is just 20-30 years distilled down to just a few lines. There are many subtle variations on a whole slew of other factors. For more recent work, you might look for some of J.D. Jones writing on shooting feral game in Australia by the hundreds. Instead of comparing one hunting season to the next, he could just switch boxes of ammo for a different bullet design, caliber, or velocity and see the direct results... One line that sticks in my mind was his 44 mag bullet haveing a very similar effect on game compared to a 454 Casull. His guide wondered when he switched guns, but he had only switched ammo... I guess I've kind of jumped over Bob Milek, the Herret calibers, TC single shots... And where do we start on the 475 and 500 Linebaugh calibers. Seyfried did shoot some buffs with a 475 and cut down solid bullets and cast bullets... As John put it, we had our big guns, but Veral really made them shoot well. I could go on and on..., but it's getting late and I'm probably starting to ramble. Why does the 32acp perform soo much better on goats than... Nose steering..... Cavitation bubble stability.... It sounds like you may have years of experience in the personal protection, 2 legged monster side of the shooting world. Some of that may apply here, but not all of it. I am by no means an expert on anything. I don't know if I helped or hurt, but I hope it was more on the helped side of things. | |||
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Lar45: You seem like a fairly reasonable person. Gary Reeder has a HUGE following of handgun hunters that have a ton of record trophies. They pretty much settle on medium weight bullets, fast, and accurate. Lee Jurras took near everything on the planet by changing jacket thickness with 180-185 grain .44 magnum bullets, at near 1900 fps. Same thing you are talking about. I have letters from linebaugh where he starts off with heavy fast, and has to back off, as the guns start wearing out fast. Same problem S&W has had just about every time they invented the new, 'most powerful gun in the world'. I believe, and have some living evidence of, that heavy for caliber bullets, at high velocities, in handguns, can create nerve damage. I don't want to go there, so, if I go heavy, I'm going slower, which is great if I'm hunting, but, that will only happen after vermin, pigs, rats, human thugs, and, in my business, I meet a LOT of them. I am beholding to all for their detailed explanations of why they choose what they do. St. Thomas Aquinas might argue that they are using the big guns for their intended purpose. I can go with that, and, it's a good argument. I don't have a use for a shotgun, except home defense, and, my range isn't crazy about slugs at the range. Why, if in a .475, I can get 1.32" expansion, with limited penetration, should I not use a 275 grain Speer as my home defense weapon? Sound? Sure. One round is going to create a huge hole, much like an expanding slug out of a 12 gauge, and, hopefully, the look of a stainless .475 caliber hole would be enough to deter an attacker. Many advocate shotguns as home defense weapons. I have near the same ballistics with a portable, easy to shoot, handgun. If the stuff really hits the fan, all I have to do is change loads to whatever cast, gas checked bullets I can find cheap. I guess the best analogy is a car one. There are countless super cars that people drive in the US that are designed for over twice the legal limit. One of my retired swat friends has a Porsche 928 that he never drives, that I'd buy in a second. It does 160, but, with that gearing, it gets about 25 miles to a gallon at 70, plus it can go faster. It was, at it's time, one of the most expensive cars avaliable. As long as it doesn't break, it represents an incredible value, and, a reasonable, useable car. Instead, he drives a very expensive, new Mercedes, that, in comparision, is a toy. Even though the Porsche is not being used for it's intended speed, it's still a joy to drive, and, more or less, economical, except for parts. The big guns are similar. If you ran the 928 at 160 all the time, it would certainly shorten the life of the car, and maybe damage or kill you. Likewise, if you run these big guns at full throttle all the time, I believe that they will eventually damage the shooter. A flinch is your body anticipating recoil, and, shying away from it. It happens PRIOR to pulling the trigger. What if your body learns to react to ANY gun you pick up, in that way? How about if it becomes so ingrained that you have flinches without the gun, at random times? | |||
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I guess gs you have a few valid points but they mostly apply to someone that has only one gun. If all i had was a 475 i guess i could use it for home defense, whitetail hunting and bufflalo hunting. It can be easily loaded up or down to take care of all of it. But i have many sixguns and alothough i may take a new 475 or 500 out and shoot a deer just to kill something with it for the most part there used for larger animals. I do most of my deer bear and pig hunting with a 44 or 45. Home defense could be done with your 475 but why if you have a gun better suited to it. Id much rather have a 1911 or a sig or glock in my hand if someone was breaking in my home. It holds more ammo, is eaiser to use (no cocking for second shot) recovery between shots is quicker, less chance of over penetration and ammo and bullets that are designed for he purpose. Plus capping off a 475 indoors with anything other then a low velocity load is mind numbing. I know, ive done it. constantly you see where guys on the internet want to use a gun that is not designed for a task. They want to hunt deer with a 22 hornet or with a 9mm. Sure it will kill something but its not what it was designed for. the 475 is a great round. Id probably have to say that next to the 44 mag its my favorite round. It is great at alot of things but home defense just isnt one of them. As to the light and fast school of thought. Remember that when the 22 high power came out guys thought it was capable of killing anything. same goes for the 257 weatherby the 250 savage and even the 357 mag. A couple things get killed with it by a gun writer and all of a sudden everyone thinks they kill like the hand of thor. A few years down the road and lots of bad experiences show that it was just a fad. Ive shot enough game with handguns and some of it big to know that heavy and slow beats light and fast every time especially when using cast bullets. If you want to argue jacketed ill go this route. If all you are going to shoot out of a 475 is jacketed bullets for one your going to have to be wealthy to ever master it as it takes thousands of rounds of ammo to master full power loads in any gun 454 or larger not a couple hundred. Ive never seen an animal killed with jacketed handgun bullets that couldnt have been killed with the exact same bullet placement using cast and sure cant say that the other way around. For the most part when i see someone with a 454 or 475 and hes shooting jacketed bullets or factory ammo i about know hes the type that bought the gun to impress his buddys and will never master it. For the most part its just a big noise maker and a training ground to learn how to flinch. When i buy clothes i buy them to fit and dont buy one size fits all and i do the same with guns. why press a gun thats not ideal for a situation into service when you allready have something that better fits the job. | |||
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First off let me reinterate, This Is The "Handgun Hunting Forum" Not The Personal Defense Forum Secound light and fast has been around forever and the smart money ain't on fast and light. As far as flinching goes, flinching is mental and is or is not controlled with the mind. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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For many years it was a proven fact that the .44 mag was a poor round to use against human targets. It has less instant stopping power then the .45 ACP or the .357 because it just blasts through so fast. For a handgun used for carry or home defense, those two would be my choice but a shotgun in the house is super deadly to the BG. I found the best defense where I live is all of the shooting I do in my woods. Neighbors homes are broken into by punks but no one in their right mind has come near my house. They hear the big stuff but have no idea that a .410 will be used against them, not the cannons. Buy a Judge and be happy in your home. What better for carry then a choice between a .410 or .45 too? | |||
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That sounds like an excellent Idea. I have arthritis in my right wrist from seeing just how fast.... I now load to where it is comfortable to shoot and is the most accurate. 700gn slugs at 900fps from the 500S&W are fun to shoot and not too abusive on the shooter. I won't name any names, but I have seen world renowned shooters flinch with a 22 revolver on an empty chamber. The big guns are fun to shoot and can be amazingly effective against large targets, but the huge loads might best be shot in moderation. I think a double action would be much better for home defense than a single action. Obviously this donesn't apply to everybody. Maybey a Ruger Alaskan in 480 if .475 is what you want? Yes there have been many things shot with high velocity hollow points, but it may have not been the best or even good thing to use. 125gn JHP from a 357 Herrett on Elk and wonder why is didn't just drop? (excerpt from someones writing) (don't have time to write the rest of the story, but it's in a book somewhere) If your only use for a pump 12 ga with bird shot is to protect your family, then that sounds like money well spent. | |||
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Just for you GS Personal Defence And Concealed Carry _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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