quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I made a plate with a depression the gas check fits into. There is a hole through the plate and a punch that fits perfectly will punch the center of the check out.
Then I put the check in the mold and cast a boolit through it.
I will take a picture later.

Cool idea, how well did they shoot?

They shoot about the same as regular boolits so I don't make too many. They work better with lighter boolits like a Keith. Trying to get the velocity up too high with a short drive length boolit was widening the rifling marks too much and giving me leading. The front check helps the boolit take the twist sooner.
Someday I will make one for the .475. Those big heavy boolits are hard to get turning. Been lucky that the bottom of the boolits look good when recovered but the front marks are wide. It hasn't hurt my accuracy so I don't worry about it. Just be a good experiment.
A gain twist would be nice.

Here is my punch. I set the check in the hole and put the punch body into it. I slide the punch in and tap it with a hammer. Perfect hole in the center.

OK, now that it is hopefully " on the way", I need a holster for a 6" FA model 83 in 475. Any recommendations?
Thanks, Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
OK, now that it is hopefully " on the way", I need a holster for a 6" FA model 83 in 475. Any recommendations?
Thanks, Peter.

I have had several custom holsters made for several of my handgun. All were perfect fit.
I like the workmanship of Reed Gun Leather.
Danny Reed 336-696-9047

Von Ringler is another good maker. You can find him on the web I do believe.

Thanks! Do I need a custom? Are these not available "off the shelf"?
Modified: Looks like Von Ringler has holsters for about $100. He is also referenced in Linebaugh's web site.
Peter.

I believe he makes the holsters for FA as well.

OK I need some help using the Hornady 4 die set that was recommended here. The 4th dies looks like it is a taper crimp only, so, should I be crimping at the bullet seating stage as well as crimping using the 4th die, or not crimping at the seating stage and just crimping using the 4th die? I do NOT want to experience bullet movement with my 475 Linebaugh (which I have not shot yet).
Thanks, Peter.

crimp with the fourth die.

MS that is what I have done ie. set up the seating die to NOT crimp (seat only) and then using the 4th die to crimp. My concern is whether that is enough to prevent bullet movement under recoil.
Peter.

Gas checks are to stop leading when you push bullets past 1,500 FPS.(From Montana Bullet Works Site).I have never used them.I always thought the hardness took care of that????I have Molycoated lead bullets.Worked slicker than snot on my Ruger#1 45-70.

If you can see the outline of the base of the bullet once it is seated, you should have enough case neck tension to hold the bullet in place. Case neck tension is going to hold much better than a crimp will.

I can not remember any of my rounds jumping crimp, but I've slept since I started shooting mine.

The interesting thing is that when I lower the crimp die (4th die) it doesn't seem to crimp any more (tighter), it just seems to increase the size of the crimped area ie. I can see a band around the case, and the width of the band increases. Hope this makes sense. In any case I will just have to shoot the thing and see. It's just that I have heard so much about this that I was concerned.
olbiker, my bullets are gaschecked, based on an email exchange with Dave at Montana.
Peter.

i like gas check bullets. Over the years theyve proven to me anyway that there more accurate. Its a tough call though as a guy can get two molds with the exact same bullet and cut one with a gas check and have two bullets that shoot entirely differnt. In one case the gas checked one may shoot better and in another the plain based one. Change which gun your using and it will likely change again. Overall though id say in my experience a gas checked bullet is easier to find a good load for then a plain based bullet. As to not being needed to 1500fps. I dont quite agree. Ive seen plain based bullets lead at 1100 fps in guns and the same gun will smoke a gas checked bullet out at about any speed. I think a better statement would be that unless a guy didnt have alot of time for experimenting there about manditory after 1500fps.

Lloyd, I have seen the same thing in my 45 ACP and 38 Special. I have got leading from bullets as slow as 750 to 900 fps with plain bases.

I no longer shoot plain base lead bullets. Nothing but gas checks for me.

I just couldnt afford to shoot them in the 38s and 45acp. I shoot way to many of them. Id have to buy 3 boxes of gas checks a week!! My 1911s and 38s are all quality guns that ive gotten any bugs out of that they have and all do real well with plain based bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
Lloyd, I have seen the same thing in my 45 ACP and 38 Special. I have got leading from bullets as slow as 750 to 900 fps with plain bases.

I no longer shoot plain base lead bullets. Nothing but gas checks for me.

I just cleaned my BFR 45-70 after 6 months of shooting my 378 gr PB boolit at 1650 fps. The first patch had a few tiny flakes of lead, normal for any boolit, then it was gone.
I get the same amount of lead with all of my GC boolits so I don't see any difference.
The boolit should be hard enough and even 50-50 WW and pure, if water dropped is hard enough until you get too fast. Straight WW, water dropped, is better as is a harder alloy for a higher velocity.
Just because you are shooting 700 fps is no reason to think soft lead will not lead the bore. THAT is where the gas check helps prevent leading.
Stuff a little fast powder behind a dead soft boolit and what happens? The boolit is hit with all the pressure RIGHT NOW and can upset, slump and deform the boolit. Lead even squirts out of the cylinder gap. If you have not noticed all of the lead on the OUTSIDE of a .38 special shooting pure wad cutters, you have not paid attention.
I do not believe in BUMP UP in ANY gun, muzzle loader, round ball or Minie' ball, rifle or revolver. For those that think bumping up a boolit will prevent leading and aid accuracy, it just does not work!
Fit the boolit and make it hard enough for the powder used and the velocity being shot.
The faster the powder in a revolver, the more you should get away from soft lead. The boolit reaches almost all of it's velocity in inches and is slammed into the forcing cone as a blob of putty. Now you need a copper scraper behind the boolit! But don't worry, all you help is leading, the accuracy is already gone.
Many complain that the cast boolit does not shoot as good as a jacketed bullet, I guess there is a reason for that. It is harder, maintains it's form and grabs the rifling without skidding.
It does not take a great deal of thought process to figure out why the gun fills with lead and the side of a barn is safe from holes.
If I do my part, my 45-70 BFR with a PB boolit will hold under 1" at 100 yd's and will NOT lead my bore! So will my PB .475 boolit. Because I know what works and what doesn't.
Every time I read a suggestion to soften the boolit so it "Bumps up" I grit my teeth.
If the boolit doesn't fit, FIX it or buy a larger mold. Then tailor the alloy and hardness.
EVEN A MINIE' BALL IN A MUSKET is crap and does not shoot accurate unless the boolit is a TIGHT fit at the muzzle. I can make one that will not keep a single shot on paper at 50 yd's good enough to clang steel at 200 yd's.
Obturate--to close or stop up---BAH HUMBUG!

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
OK, now that it is hopefully " on the way", I need a holster for a 6" FA model 83 in 475. Any recommendations?
Thanks, Peter.

Peter:

If you're right-handed, I have a Freedom Leather thumb break strong-side holster for six-inch barrelled Model 83 in very good condition. Of course, I'm left-handed. Here are graphics.

Naphtali, I sent you a PM.
OK, shot my first rounds from the FA 475 Linebaugh. I had previously switched the front sight to the "480" thinking I would need that for the 400 grain bullets. However, the gun is shooting low so I was thinking of switching back to the other front sight. If there is elevation adjustment on the rear sight, it is fully "down" ie. screw down all the way, so no more adjustment there. Does this change make sense? My heaviest load was 24.5 grains H110 with the 400 grain bullet. While I did not look, the cylinder rotated fine, so no excess bullet movement. Load was stiff but manageable. Most accurate load was 15 grains of HS6. I did not chrono the loads (too much shade).
Peter.

15 gr of HS-6 is a super load. But you need 26 to 26.5 gr of H110 for that boolit. Work up slow and you will see an improvement and then the groups will start to open at some point. Back down to the most accurate.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
15 gr of HS-6 is a super load. But you need 26 to 26.5 gr of H110 for that boolit. Work up slow and you will see an improvement and then the groups will start to open at some point. Back down to the most accurate.

Oh, and they start to kick nicely around 26 grains!

quote:

OK, shot my first rounds from the FA 475 Linebaugh. I had previously switched the front sight to the "480" thinking I would need that for the 400 grain bullets. However, the gun is shooting low so I was thinking of switching back to the other front sight. If there is elevation adjustment on the rear sight, it is fully "down" ie. screw down all the way, so no more adjustment there. Does this change make sense? My heaviest load was 24.5 grains H110 with the 400 grain bullet. While I did not look, the cylinder rotated fine, so no excess bullet movement. Load was stiff but manageable. Most accurate load was 15 grains of HS6. I did not chrono the loads (too much shade).
Peter.

If the rear sight is down and you are shooting low, why don't you raise the rear sight?????
Righty-tighty, lefty-loosey! Did you ever think that you are thinking backwards?

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

Oh, and they start to kick nicely around 26 grains!

Yes indeed they do, that is my load with the 400 gr. bullet...

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

Oh, and they start to kick nicely around 26 grains!

Yes indeed they do, that is my load with the 400 gr. bullet...

What bullet are you using? Is it from Montana?

Yes it is from Montana Bullet works. It is the LBT 400 gr. (22)(BHN) .476 Wide Flat Nose - Gas Checked bullet.

It shoots great out of my Encore barrel, I can't wait for my Revolver to get done, and try them out in it.

I think I am going to take in on my black bear hunt, next year. I have a new Ultra-dot waiting to install it on the 475 Linebaugh. I think I have another 3 months before Gary Reeder is done with it.

Geez bfr, now you've got me all confused. If I raise the rear sight, doesn't that mean I would have to lower the barrel to line up to the same POA? My confusion is obviously that I understand the rule about moving the rear sight in the same direction as the change. I understand the rule, just can't picture it! In any case, as I am several inches low, I will make the gross change with the front sight and then "fine tune" it.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Geez bfr, now you've got me all confused. If I raise the rear sight, doesn't that mean I would have to lower the barrel to line up to the same POA? My confusion is obviously that I understand the rule about moving the rear sight in the same direction as the change. I understand the rule, just can't picture it! In any case, as I am several inches low, I will make the gross change with the front sight and then "fine tune" it.
Peter.

Good luck, Peter and keep us posted!

Whitworth, it's a labor of love! Hopefully this weekend I can chrono some of these loads, and get it sighted in.
Peter.

quote:

Geez bfr, now you've got me all confused. If I raise the rear sight, doesn't that mean I would have to lower the barrel to line up to the same POA? My confusion is obviously that I understand the rule about moving the rear sight in the same direction as the change. I understand the rule, just can't picture it! In any case, as I am several inches low, I will make the gross change with the front sight and then "fine tune" it.
Peter.

No Peter, move the rear sight in the direction you want the boolit to go. To raise the point of impact, raise the rear sight.

Well, the saga continues. I tried the lower (432?) front sight, but that shot way high, so I decided to switch to the scope mount that came with the gun (TSOB) and an Ultra Red Dot sight. I shot various loads using H110, starting at 24.5 and working up. Velocities were disappointing, and accuracy at 25 yards was adequate but nothing to write home (or post on AR!) about. That is, until I tried 28 grains of H110.


This gave me the above 5 shot group at 25 yards and an average of 1272 fps. I have no intention of going any higher on the powder charge! Bullets were 400 grain wide flat nose gas check from Montana. Obviously one 5 shot group doesn't prove much, so I plan on duplicating the load. If this flies, what should I sight it in at? I was thinking 50 yards for hunting.
Peter.

Now your talking accuracy!
Yes, sight a little high at 50 yd's. Or dead on at 75. Then you can hit from zero to a little over 100.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:

Here it is Lloyd. I call it my half jacket. It also works fine with a PB boolit.

Not sure anyone may care, but these are called 'Wilks' gas checks. I have a nifty punch set up made by a machinist friend of mine, that fits into my reloading press to make them. The base snaps into the case holder, and the holes punched thru, pop out the bottom of the ram just like a primer. Gas checks work well when loads exceed about 1,600 FPS, or when used in a micro grooved Marlin. If the alloy, bullet diameter, lube, and everything else is balanced for the firearm, they are not needed. With loads exceeding 1,500 FPS, I have gotten better accuracy with gas checks, as long as they are annealed prior to installing. Gas checks that are not annealed can come off easier and then you may find them (as the one gentlemen mentioned), on the ground at the firing line. Cheers.

You have a better memory then I do! It was a LONG time ago I read about them.
The stuff has been in a drawer forever, never exceeded the velocity where they are worth the trouble.
But now you have me curious to try them in the Marlin.

OK:
Gas checks
They are used to prevent leading. They do this by stopping the base of a lead bullet from heating up and melting. When to use them? This varies with what kind of bullets you are using, and, what powders you are using, and, there is no simple, bright line rule. Tim Sundles gas checks a super soft 158 grain 38 Plus P HP, because, with the very soft lead used for low speed expansion, the bullets will lead the barrel.

Depending on how hard you get the bullets cast, depends on gas checking.

A long time ago, I used to run super hardcast .452" 230 grain bullets over a full case of H110
in 45 Colt, in my Linebaugh Seville. Didn't lead, even though they were going well over 1700 fps.

Now, the other point is if you get too hard, your cast bullets can shatter when they hit bone, depending on what you are hunting.

My question would be at what brinell hardness do the bullets start shattering, and, at what velocity do bullets that don't shatter require gas checks? Your mileage may change, depending on gun, powder, and caliber...

I also think they should be used by commercial loaders, when they charge jacketed prices for lead bullets...

OK:
Gas checks
They are used to prevent leading. They do this by stopping the base of a lead bullet from heating up and melting. When to use them? This varies with what kind of bullets you are using, and, what powders you are using, and, there is no simple, bright line rule. Tim Sundles gas checks a super soft 158 grain 38 Plus P HP, because, with the very soft lead used for low speed expansion, the bullets will lead the barrel.[/quote]
Boolit bases will NOT melt. The problem is when the boolit is driven so fast it skids before taking the rifling. the land marks get wider then the lands and make gas vents past the boolit. Gas leaking past the boolit does the damage. Soft boolits turn to putty when they hit the forcing cone and lead can even squirt out of the gap. Fast powders make it worse because the boolit is almost at top speed when it leaves the cylinder. Make the boolit HARDER for fast powders.
The gas check grabs the rifling and reduces skidding, keeping the land marks small so leakage is less.
BOOLIT BASES DO NOT MELT! Gas jets past the boolit melts lead.

The base of hard cast bullets do not melt, ever recover one, there is no indication of melting. Gas check lower presures over plain base. Ros Seyfried di a very indepth article on theis a number of years ago and detailed the pressure difference. Gas check are not nessecary, but are very benefical

bfrshooter:

I remember shooting .44 Special lead pos without gas checks, going about 500 fps Remington about 30 years ago, and, recovering bullets. Yes, the bottoms did melt, and the bullets deformed as well. Leading was horrible.

You are trying to make an absolute rule about a situation that does not lend itself to one. We are talking about gas checks on hard cast bullets, when they were designed for lead, or very soft bullets in the first place.

jwp475:

I agree, provided they are cast hard enough, and, the lube is good enough, and, they aren't going at a velocity
they can't handle...



The above is what a .500JRH hard cast lead bullet looks like after, IIRC, Jack shot an Asian buffalo with it. Left bullet smashed a shoulder bone, others didn't hit anything quite as solid, but, the front of the bullets deformed. 440's at 950 fps, or could be the 430's at 1350 fps, hard to tell the difference.

I wasn't there, by the way.

JWP475 might have been, don't know;-)

bfr: another misnomer is that fast powders get bullets to full velocity quickly. From a bit of shooting I've done, I found that with Jack's .500JRH loads, using a medium-slow powder, heavy bullets, read 350 grains or more, will stay in place long enough so that you can get maximum velocity out of a 4" barrel, at least with 440 grain bullets, at either 950 fps, or 1350 fps.

We tested the above short barreled ruger, the above about 4" BFR Custom shop .500 JRH, and, SafariKids' 16" David Clay lever action in .500 JRH.
The snubbie had a slight velocity loss, 50 fps, IIRC, and the other two had identical chronograph readings. So, again, it depends on a number of factors, and, general rules don't apply the calibers under discussion here. I've noticed the .475 and .500JRH are near twins in reloading specs, and results.
Here's the David Clay Jack worked on:

Isn't leading already taking place with the FRONT part of the bullet? I would suspect that the gas check perhaps scrapes away some of the lead already deposited. Kind of like the theory of removing leading by shooting jacketed bullets. In any case, the Montana bullets I bought are supposedly heat treated, and gas checked. I asked Dave (at Montana) about cast bullets above 1300 fps. He recommended the gas checked and that is what I bought.
Peter.

I have recovered Nosler partitions that were loaded over compressed charges of H-4831 and the exposed lead in the rear of the bullets stil had the powder grain indents in them, indicating no melting and this was in a 300 Wea. Mag. That's more pressure and powder than a handgun/ I do not believe that meltinbg takes place.