I am thinking of using either the 170gr. sierra, 210gr xtp, or the 200 gr. rem.,this year for deer. Does anybody have any experince with these bullets, and their performance, on deer sized animals.I am shooting a 5.5"redhawk, and will be loading with ww296. Thanks!!

Josh,

I have used Remingtons 210JSP on deer and they punch right through just like a hardcast bullet would. They do the job if you place the bullets in the boiler room but no expansion. I have also gotten the same results on turkeys.

If i ever decide to go after deer again it will be with Sierra's 170JHC. I have used these on woodchucks and they show minimal expansion. This minimal expansion should be about optimum for deer as chucks are not much of a challenge for a bullet. Sierra does recommend them for deer sized game....

Josh, are you talking white tail or mule deer?

I'm a little bit shy of using the lighter weight JHP's for deer. I haven't shot a deer yet with these in my .41 Mag, but I've shot some other critters. On a good sized armadillo, which should be fairly comperable to a white tail from the bullet's point of view, the JHP's have been really explosive for me. I'm afraid you would have a lot of tissue damage on a nice deer.

On the other hand, I've taken 9 white tail with a .357 Magnum carbine...most with a 170 gr cast bullet. All hit in the shoulders. 8 of the nine never took a step. The one that did move was a good size 8 pt and he went maybe 25yds before plowing up the grass.

If I were you, I would use the 215 gr bullet. Cast if you've got um. Get close enough where you KNOW you can place your shot where it should be and that deer will ride home with you. If my 357 can do it, your .41 dang sure can. Good luck.

[ 08-04-2002, 23:59: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

thanxs for the thoughts guys-- I have been casting for over 20 years and have shot numerous critters including two deer and my fav is the .41-- but currently I have a 5.5 Redhawk that does not like any of the three bullet molds I have- plus some commercially cast bullets I have -- so when I tried the aforementioned jacketed bullets I started getting bascailly one large hole at 25 yards from a rest. So I am going to use what the gun likes --Both of my deer were taken with cast bullets btw. I was just interested in what others might have found in using JHP on deer-- the 170 is interesting because according to my chrono it approaches 1600fps-- I am not concerned with tissue damge per say-- for that = a dead deer- with the right shot but overall for me after all these years of cast JHPs are an unknown to me as to terminal results-- no doubt they will kill though just interested in what they do in the real world not just in 8' of wet newsprint. thanxs again

I too have not shot a deer with my 41. If one cooperates this year, it will be shot with a 230 gr Keith bullets from Dry Creek Bullet Works. They are extremely well cast and the Keith bullet has a excellent reputation on game.
http://www.sixgunner.com/creeker/Default.htm

I'd stay away from the 170's for the same reasons metioned. Think they're a big fragile for medium/lage game. A hunting buddy and fellow board poster hit a buck 3 times double action with them (2 chest, 1 paunch) at distances of 10-20 feet. Tracked him a mile or so and never found it.

Opinions opinions opinions, well here is mine. I have load data sheets from two different custom smiths who recommend the 170g (both say Sierra) bullet as the bullet to use for medium game, one even goes so far as to recount how well that bullet works on elk when used in one of his .41 caliber wildcats, oh well, one of these guys even recommends and shows on his website the Simmons Gold for his hand cannons so what do they know? IMHO use if you got 'em.

I'd use them for whitetail. I use the 210 jacketeds and they work great for deer so I don't know why the 170s would not. I bought some 175 Silvertip ammo in bulk a while back and will use it this year.

Hay! a variety of good opinions-- like i figured-- I have killed a number of groundhogs with the 170's and saw only limited expansion evidence-- my concern in using them and I have about 80 170 grain remington bullets plus the 2 boxs of serria 170's --my only concern is that they will stay in the deer and no exit wound--hence little or no trail -- if they run -- They are very accurate when you find the right laod -- my DWA a Blackhawk (I wish i still had ) and my current Redhawk really do very well with them -- all my .41's are scoped and from sand bags they will do 3" or less at 100 yards with #2400 and these bullets-- I also have seen some gunsmiths recommend the 170 seirra for even large game out of his wildcat-- I still have a while -I will practice and test and then decide. thanxs all-- it is always better done with a .41

Guys,

Last year I hit a deer at 125 yards with a 220 gr hard cast Keith bullet from a 6" Model 57 S&W. Was an H-110 load ... pretty hot.

(I usually don't shoot that well, but the pistol is set up with a Leupold long eye relief scope oh Beuhler mounts. Even me and my old eyes can hit with that when shooting from a rested position!)

Projectile placement was just about perfect ... just behind the shoulder about 4-5" below the spine. Projectile hit both lungs and much of the circulatory system ... but not the heart proper.

The deer was mortally injured and would have bled out in a matter of minutes. However, I got there before that happened and administered a round to the base of the skull to quicken the end.

Cast projectiles are GREAT for penetration and would be fine for something requiring it. For deert sized game I'd look for a bullet that has some expansion too.

Does Barnes make a .41 X bullet?

Josh
Here's what I posted on a thread about the 44 Mag. but I'm sure it applies to the 41 also. I don't think you'll have any trouble with the 170 JHP.

"I can't give you an expert opinion, just mine from very limited experience. One small spike at 50 yds 180 gr Sierra JHC, 2400 powder, 44 Mag 10" Contender. Bullet came apart, complete penetration just below spine, one shot kill. One 8 point 182 lbs dressed, 66 yds, quartering away complete penetration 200 gr Nosler same 44 Mag. 2400 powder. One shot kill. One young 7 point same bullet, fired from a muzzleloader, complete penetration broadside shot, looked like bullet came apart judging by the internal mess, one shot kill.
I think shot placement and reasonable ranges will allow a wide latitude in what bullets will work for deer. I'd pick what your gun likes best.
I am switching to a heavier bullet in the muzzleloader."
Greg

I've loaded up some Cast Performance 265 grain hard casts for my Dan Wesson (741 I think, it is an older gun) .41 Mag. I plan to use it as my primary for deer/elk this season in Colorado (GMU 75). I'm pushing that bit of rebar with 18.4 grains of Lil' Gun and got the revolver topped with a Bushnell 2x scope. This load might be a little much for Mule deer but I bet even a marginal shot with a hard cast that big would drop a deer HARD.

Hi all -- To mstarling -- a question --Did the 220 cast bullet give complete penetration and was there much trama to the lungs? At 125yards the bullet has slowed down to 1100 or less depending on what it started at-- I can get mine up to about 1360+ with WW296. i have placed a few JHP in deer and have not been happy with the results-- I have recovered a jacket only as an example of this--- but this was a number of years ago -- anyway I ordered some Dry Creek bullets the 220 KT with the larger Meplat -- i am really considering them -- my gun is a blue 5.5 redhawk with a blue 2X Bushnell trophy scope My first handgun hunt will be October 27 I have till then to decide thanks all-- speak on I am interested and listening

Josh,

The bullet went all the way through ... like butter ... no problem. Not a huge, but not a tiny deer. Probably 200 - 225 live weight.

Trauma? No shock if that's what you mean. Nice hole ... plenty of blood ... just no shock. Entry was same size as exit.

I could see the deer the entire time I was getting to it. The game was caughing blood and trying to crawl away when I got there. May have taken a minute and a half for me to walk it up.

I've hit deer with "explosive" projectiles (135 grain Nosler 40 caliber HP with a measured MZ of 1450) ... entry, bullet detonation, no exit. Just creamed the upper chest. Deer did a front sommersault and died on the spot.

There has to be a good balance in between these two extremes.

Was going to try 210 factory SP's this year ... but the thread indicates that they punch through much like my experience with the 220 Keiths. Have some 210 JHCs left from the days of using the M57 as a defensive weapon. Those might work ... but I'd have thought they might be too fragile with separation very likely.

I'm open to experimentation. The M57 is a 35 year old friend, and she didn't get this old eating a very regular diet of hypershot. I try to reserve hotter loads for hunting only. Any ideas?

thanks,

Mstarling - I've not shot a deer sized animal with the 210 gr JHP...but my gut feeling is they will give you performance somewhere in between the "punch through" and the "bomb."

They are a pretty fragile bullet, it's true. What I would almost bet will happen is it will punch thru the rib cage on one side and by this time PARTS of the bullet will go their merry way. But I think the largest part will come out the other side.

Might not be the best bullet for shooting thru the shoulder blade and all the bones you can find. But I think it would do just fine in a chest shot.

If I'm wrong, I'll disavow any knowledge of this suggestion. Good hunting.

By trama --I mean blood shot tissue in the lungs-- the first deer i killed with a 41 was a 220KT with a mzv of about 1100fps-- the bullet centered the heart with a measured hole of .700 slightly over my thumb size-- the deer hopped about three times and dropped-- I am like you i do not like to see them suffer and btw being from Tn that is a very big deer- and it seems like the round did a good job already. i guess the real advantage of the cast is it will make a decent hole based on the meplat --the flat part of the bullet nose-- with through and through performance-- I think i like those 200 gr Remingtons-- I put one in a large doe (140 pounds)last year and the bullet went all the way through and expanded well -- I found it in the ground -- but I wonder what is the range of expansion as to velocity -- what if I pull it and hit the shoulder -- cold makes lead harder and powder slower-- what effect will that have on the performance of the hollow point-- the post about the 180 JHC in a .44 is good -- it says the lighter bullets can do well -- but he was at least as i remember using a contender which has more velocity -- I can get 1540 with the 170 -- 1440 -1470 with the 200 and 1360+ with the 220 Keith bullets-- being a dyed in the wool bullet caster-- I tend to go toward cast-- becasue they are going to do what they are going to do with less dependance on the velocity or temps and more on the shape-- I am tempted to try the 170 just to see what they really will do--they are very accurate -- I gues i will have to cogitate and ruminate on it some more

I just got my first 41 mag last year, 6.5" Ruger BH, and havn't shot anything with it yet either. The only bullets I could find locally were 3 boxes of Nosler JHP's that Gander Mtn was clearencing do to lack of sales. My fav load so far is 20.0gr W296 for about 1325fps (book, not chrono'd yet).

My penatration test medium is 1/2 gal milk cartons filed w/ water. This load penatrated 38" into the 10th milk carton. It expanded to .690 max dia and retained weidht was 172.5 gr.

That should do for just about any deer you can find. But for elk I'd opt for either the 230 gr Keith from Dry Creek or the 250 gr LBT WFN from Cast Performance.

Good Luck,

LK

I have shot deer with a 41 cal S&W 6"modle 57
210gr XTP's, and with hard cast 225gr National bullets.

I stopped useing JHP bullets because of the cost at the time. After a few kills with the HC bullets I dicided not to go back. I almost always get full penetrtion and not once has a critter walked away on me. That is all I care about. Dead meat with out suffering unduely.
BTW, FWIW I shoot 225gr SWC National Bullet Co. over 20grs of H110 Federal Lrg pistol primers in Winchester cases. It sure puts meat on the table.
X-Ring

for x-ring --the first deer i killed with a .41 was 20 gr. h110 and a soft cast 220Keith that weighed about 230 gr. I am not concerned about killing but killing well-- I have shot lots of jacketed bullets but not at deer all mine have been cast-- either the 220 keith or a 280 SSK mould I have-- I ordered some 230 keiths from Dry Creek --they have a meplat of .300 - I am going to play around with them and then decide-- but being a 20 + year caster I love those cast bullets-- I killed one deer with a home cast soft nose bullet that I hollowpointed it weighed 285 --it was that SSK mould-- I had several boxs of Remingtons 210 gr soft points --I could not make them expand even with heavy heavy loads of 296 -- they did make very big holes in wet newsprint though. Also that was pretty impressive pent on the milk jugs -- beartooth has a permanent wound channel formula on their site as well recommended power levels for game -it is all fun
to play with ought to visit and try them sometime
it is under the tech section -- I think is is called-- it more fun and better done with a .41

Josh - I think the only way to make cast bullets RELIABLY expand much is to drive them very fast, i.e. up near 1,800 - 2,000 fps....OR hollow point them with an OBSCENE HOLE.

I once converted a .45 caliber 230gr RN bullet to hollow point...made the hole .224 diameter. Bullet look like a monster and it was. But I recovered some that had gone thru jackrabbits and they were mushroomed until they looked like silver dollars! The jackrabbits were dead before they hit the ground and the fur flew off them on impact like I had shot into a feather pillow.

Point being, if you are going to hollow point a bullet for pistols...it better be a BIG hole. I can testify .224 works real good.

You will note that even most of the jacketed HP pistol bullets now have a HUGE cavity. Otherwise pistols just don't have the velocity to open up most of the time.

I think your .41 will do just fine on any deer you shoot with it, provided a hit in vital area.
I have dropped 9 whitetail with a .357 and a 170 gr case, so I'm not too concerned about your .41 doing it whatever weight bullet you use.

The only problem you might encounter, I think, would be on a deer that was frightened and full of adrenaline BEFORE you shot. Animals souped up on adrenaline can do some wild things and all bets are off then. You might get to trail him a long way before the adrenaline burned up in his system. But I have seen this happen even with some very deadly rifle shots!

My advice is be "stealthy" and place your shot. Your deer will be feed dressed before he knows what hit him.

The cast bullet i was using and hollow pointed was a DAB cast bullet -- dual alloy bullet-- the front one third or so is pure lead -- and that is waht i hollow point -- they act like Nosler Partitions-- but they are a pain to make cheap -- probably will in the end use them if I think I have to have an expanding bullet-- thanks for the advice

If you want middle of the road performance , I believe the Hornaday XTP s will be the best bet . If you like a semi wadcutter and don't want or have the time to cast , don't overlook the the old Speer 3/4 jacketed semi wadctters , they have a 220 gr solid point and a 200 gr hollow point ......

[ 09-13-2002, 16:47: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]

Stay with 200 gr. or above on deer. I use 175s on javelina.

Leadhead makes a fine looking and shooting 215 Keith type.
It's going to be my .41 bullet for Missouri whitetails this year.

Fast becoming a .41 fan

Thnaks to all who posted -- I appreciate all the wise advice you gave..-- I have decided to use a cast Keith wide flat nose . 300 meplat it weighs 230 grains -- now to the loads -- either 296 or 800x groups well enough I have clocked some of the 296 loads and i got 1367 for my own cast keith from a Lyman mould-- it will break 1400 from 5.5 Redhawk -- I have not clocked the 800x load yet or the 230 keith but will do so soon I have used a lot of 800x and pretty well have a good idea about what to expect. If any one is interested I will give the velocity of all the loads I have used this year from 170 to 230 Kt

Mr. Tharpe....I would be interested in your loads and velocities for the 800X powder. I have been somewhat concerned about using 800X as I heard it was inversly temperature sensitive like Blue Dot is. The colder it gets the higher the pressure. Most of my loading for high velocity loads is with H110. 23 grains behind any jacketed bullet 200-220 grains in weight gives the highest velocity and best accuracy of any loads tried. For a heavy cast bullet I use 22 grains of H110 with the CPBC 255 WNGC. Velocity from a custom Gary Reeder 5.5" stainless Bisley is 1350 fps and in a 5.5" Redhawk 1370 fps. The load has also worked well is 4 and 6" S&W M57s.
Have not shot a deer with a revolver for a while but the last one was with a Redhawk .44 Magnum with 30 grains of H110 driving a 180 Sierra....deer died shortly after hitting the deck. I would gladly use the 170 .41 bullet pushed by 26 grains of H110 for deer. If you check Paco Kelly's old articles on Sixgunner.com he has used this bullet extensivly for deer. The above mentioned Reeder .41 has one of Gary's .41 GNR cylinders that is especially made for the 170 Sierra bullet. I just have not had time to load anything but the 255 cast for that one however. Wonder what the new .410 GNR that is a necked down .454 case is like in a revolver...only $350 plus shipping to find out.....Bob

RJM
I to have a ReederCustom SBH in .41GNR. The gun also has a .41RemMag cylinder both are 5 shooters. Up until I started looking for a load that would REALLY knock the pins from under BIG PIGS my hunting load was Sierra 210g/19.5/2400/CCI large pistol primers in W/W cases. This load has killed so many deer dead in their tracks that I have lost count. When I became un-mobil I stopped shooting heart/lung and started shooting center front shoulder on deer. I have yet to recover a bullet or had to reach more than hands length from where the deer was shot to recover my deer. My 14 year old granddaughter uses this as her hunting load now, so do both of my sons when they hunt deer with my .41s'. I currently use a 250g cast from CPBT for all my hunting and in all my .41s' plain jane and wildcats and still shoot center shoulder on anything I hunt BIG PIGS (5 so far 300lbs+)included.

Still Crawfish...Should you forget you sent me a picture of your gun last year. Hope you are doing better after that "fall" you took due to someone else's "carelessness". And now your daughter is hunting with the .41's. Don't think you told me about her. Sounds like quite the girl. As to the hogs, only wish they made pigs that wild and big up here in NH...have a great season....Bob

...oops...that was grand daughter! 14 and with a .41...that is quite the girl.

She started at about 5 shooting my .41s. I would load up a bunch of my wax bullet loads and she would shoot the in my 657 and Contender. The wax load is only a pirmer so there is no recoil. She went from that to what I call my kid/new shooter load which is 6.5g/bullseye/215g cast can't remember who makes it just now. Over the years she has worked her way up to full house loads. I let her tell me when she was ready to move to the next level loading. Worked very well. I have a 5 year old granddaughter whos birthday party is on Sunday. Got a call from her father (my oldest son) while at work yesterday said that Emily want to speak to me about her party. She asked me to bring my gun so she could shoot like Amber.

Josh,
I have used the 210gr XTP for years and have killed over 20 deer with it. All have left devestating effects. Hornady used to make a 210gr closed point XTP in .41 caliber that is my favorite bullet in my .411JDJ Contender because it opened a little slower at the increased speed. I love the 210 XTP HP in the .41mag . They come out of the deer about nickle diameter and will turn everything above the diafram to jello!
This is one bad bullet!!

Timberghost,
Tell me about the .411JDJ. I just, about 6 weeks ago, purchased a 12 inch magna-ported .411JDJ. I haven't shot it yet because I'm waiting for a T'SOB style base form a local smith. I have a .41GNR#2 from Reeder Custom Guns but that big .444Marlin just dwarfs the .445Super parent case of the .41GNR#2.

Crawfish it sounds like you have brought up that family of yours with some real values.

I also have a Wildcat Contender based on the .445 SM case but mine was chambered by Belhm. Just about the same as a Reeder #2 but just a little shorter neck and a lot of freebore. Using AA1680 instead of the recommended H110/WW296 and seating heavy (255CPBC-300SSK) lead bullets out so the cartridge neck crimps into one of the grease grooves velocity has been over 2000 fps....and even with the milled in break/expansion chamber recoil is not fun. Have fun with that .411...I always wanted one but with this .41/.445SM I am rethinking that one. Let us know what you are getting for velocities....Bob

Sorry to hear about your experences with your .41/445Super. My Contender is a scoped 14 inch S/S with Gary's break in it. I just love it. It is what I found when I started my hunt for a .41 round that would kill BIG PIGS deader than what I had been using with my .41RemMag. First I found CBPT then I found Gary and his .41 wildcats. I haven't even tried 110/296 in the .41GNR#2. I asked the advice of Paco Kelly when I saw that .445Super case. He suggested 4559 and 4227. I have beed fooling with it for about a year now and it looks like 4227 will be the way to go in my Contender. I haven't made any shots on game as yet(long story that sounds like a soap opra)but both my sons have used it to kill the only five BIG PIGS since AUG 2000. Had a long dry run of about three years with no hunting because of my un-mobil condition, really good to be getting back to better than normal.
BTY I have four whitetail in the freezer all with the .41RemMag, two cull bucks and two does. Think I'll pass on the other two tags I have. We need to remove another 17 deer from the farm this year. There are 26 tags between the rest of the family, sure they can handle it.
Forgot what I really wanted to suggest to you, please excuse if I overstate the obivous. I put the real fun back into shooting my big .41s' when I got a pair of Pachmyer shooting gloves. They really took the sting out of the .41GNR#2

[ 11-08-2002, 08:29: Message edited by: Still Crawfish ]

RJM Mr. Tharpe???? Thanks how polite anyway Paco and Ed Martinas (who worked for Winchester Western) both like 800 x in a .41 Mr. Martinas 12 gr. 210 SP 1428 -- I have never been able to even come close to that-- I shoot 13 grains under a Lyman 410459 --223 Keith typ or 13 grains under the 230 Keith-- the first load is about 1380 on my PACT chrono and is hot the second is just over 1300 all in my 5.5 Redhawk. I have also used 22- 23 gr of 296 with the 410459-vel. is in the 1360 -1410 range 22 is low 1300s 22.5 is 1360 and 23 is just over 1400-- I use no more than 22 with 230 Keith vel is about 1300
I knew that Blue Dot is temp sensitive but did not know 800x was --I will likely hunt with the 296 loads as 800x is rather dirty -but it could very well function as one powder for all in my .41s-- from light to heavy -- I like 296 but it cannot do this -- Under the thread on the 230 keith cast bullet form on handlads.com there are some AA9 laods for the 230 if yuy are interested -- I have never used AA9 but would like to try it some time BTW I am not recomending these loads but telling some things I have used-

A small correction the AA9 loads and Blue Dot too are under the handgun forum at handlaods.com under the 230 Keith thread page three

Crawfish...Glad to hear you are out hunting again after your "accident". My .41/.445SM shoots great, it does just recoil a might however.

The reason I like H110/WW296 for .41 Magnum is that the heaviest loads that can be stuffed in the case and safely shot in a TC or Ruger can also safely be shot in my S&Ws. Not so with any other powder I have tried. For target to mid-range loads, WW231, Unique and SR4756 have always done a good job in my guns.

Crawfish your farm sound like a hunters paradise....Deer are a little more scarce here in New Hampshire....big...but far fewer in number....

Bob

Not only my farm but most of NC and much of the South in general is being over run by deer. I shoot Three culls in SC ever year. The number of deer killed during these shoots is unblieveable but still is below the number that the land owner want removed. Go figure

Anyone care to comment on what that 170gr HP will do at around 1100 fps? I am looking for a decent bullet for a 4!AE autoloader, and the 200gr is a little on the heavy side, IMO.