quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:

quote:

I like breaking shoulders.

I think that the problems that Mr. Hampton refers to are when the shoulders are "missed".

He states:

quote:

Unless the shoulder or spine is broken, or a brain shot is made, the chase will be on.

I don't shoot shoulders and I have no trouble with hard cast bullet, but of course I use a wide Meplat bullet.

I am a slow learner,but you can't convince me that a jacketed bullet placed in front of that deers shoulder would make it to that deers vitals 100% of the time.Now a cast with a wide meplat at a measley 1100fps,everytime.I think jacketed have their niche,completely broadside and then you aren't guarenteed two holes.

Friend shoots jacketed bullet in his muzzle loader at about handgun velocities,shoots a nice 8 in the shoulder and the deer bolts leaving no blood trail but carrying his front leg.After 4 hours of searching the deer is found by smell.When he was shot his leg was forward and at the shot when he began carrying his leg it sealed off the hole(bullet holes didn't line up).Had that bullet been hard cast it probablly would have shattered the onside shoulder,but it definately would have exited,therefore providing another place to leak,because he can't carry both for long.

I have shot a lot of Texas deer with a 44 Mag rifle and 240gr Hollow Points. All were at 125 yards or less. All were killed pretty quick, I cannot remember any running over 50 yards.

All the shots were pretty much broadside, and all were pass throughs.

I have shjot some deer and igs with 240gr jacketed and 240 hard cast bullets as well.

I hacve only recovered one bullet from a deer a 240 Speer fired from 85 yards from a 6 1/4" Mod 29, and one hard cast shot into a pig facing away, I was slightly above him, the bullet hit the spine, and traveled down being recovered in the teeth of the jaw. The hard cast seemed to be just as good a killer as the jacketed bullets.

However these were Texas deer in the hill country [small bodied], and the 240 jacketed bullets worked great...

But when you get into bigger animals, and raking shots I prefer the cast bullet.

As I have stated before, not enough penetration has caused more problems for hunters.

Expansion is great, IF you have enough penetration.

But you MUST have enough penetration, hard cast bullets pretty much guarentee adequate penetration.

N E 450 No2, spot on

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I have shot a lot of Texas deer with a 44 Mag rifle and 240gr Hollow Points. All were at 125 yards or less. All were killed pretty quick, I cannot remember any running over 50 yards.

All the shots were pretty much broadside, and all were pass throughs.

I have shjot some deer and igs with 240gr jacketed and 240 hard cast bullets as well.

I hacve only recovered one bullet from a deer a 240 Speer fired from 85 yards from a 6 1/4" Mod 29, and one hard cast shot into a pig facing away, I was slightly above him, the bullet hit the spine, and traveled down being recovered in the teeth of the jaw. The hard cast seemed to be just as good a killer as the jacketed bullets.

However these were Texas deer in the hill country [small bodied], and the 240 jacketed bullets worked great...

But when you get into bigger animals, and raking shots I prefer the cast bullet.

As I have stated before, not enough penetration has caused more problems for hunters.

Expansion is great, IF you have enough penetration.

But you MUST have enough penetration, hard cast bullets pretty much guarentee adequate penetration.

Very well said! It's the lack of reliability that keeps me away from jacketed bullets.

You do of course know who the author of this article is, don't you?

Trust me; the P.L.S. was no walk in the park either.

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:
I still can't believe the BS flag was raised on someone with Mark Hampton's experience.

I've killed hundreds of animals since the early 70's with hard cast bullets without a hitch. Add in over 300 Deer taken with a handgun again shooting Hard Cast by BFRShooter. Throw in hundreds more taken by M S Hitman again with hard cast bullets in a handgun. Throw in the game taken by Whitworth with hard cast. It should be easy to see why the flag was raised

And let's start with the moose, the hungry grizzly bear and the .475 Linebaugh.......

I agree,JWP share with us the moose,grizzly,and the 475 story

"Good" bullet peformance is all about repeatability. When I started hunting, a tad over 50 years ago, jacketed hollowpoints, and soft points were all the rage, and yes, I used them exclusively.... for a short while....until I realized that their performance was based on the ideal shot at an ideal distance. The results I obtained with those bullets were not uniform. Those bullets would break up on heavy bone at close ranges/higher velocities, and fail to expand at anything outside of the "perfect" velocity range....penetration performance was iffy at best. A buddy of mine was an avid cast bullet shooter, and used cast big bore bullets for all his hunting needs. He encouraged me to give cast bullets a try. What I found with cast bullets was uniformity in performance, regardless of the situation. The cast bullet performed the same regardless of distance, velocity, angle of shot, etc.....one hole in...one hole out. I realize that the technology of jacketed bullet manufacture has changed over the years, and I hear that jacketed bullet peformance has come a long way since I switched to cast, but, cast bullets have proven so reliable in my experience, that I see no need to switch back to jacketed bullets...............On topic: I shoot the 44 Mag exclusively, and have found that heavyweight cast bullets of proper alloy pushed to a tad over 1000 fps will get the job done on anything within normal handgun distances. John Linebaugh is his writings states that he uses a 250 at 950 fps (in 45 LC revolvers) for all his deer and pronghorn hunting and that he and his wife have taken this game at up to 140 yards (what I consider to be well outside of handgun range), and out to that range, the cast bullet has performed uniformily...one hole in...one hole out. My handgun hunting experiences with cast bullets have proven this out. It has always been my suspicion that a tad over 1000 fps is the sweet spot for a big bore revolver and a cast bullet. For smaller thin skinned game (deer, etc), a 250 to 300 grain bullet at that velocity will do the deed. For larger game one only needs to increase the bullet weight and maintain the same velocity...1000 fps. To prove this point we have been working with a 405 grain bullet in the 44 Mag Redhawk, as a
backup" load for large dangerous game. My chrono velocities are 1020 fps. In comparitive media penetration tests, the 405 at 1000+ fps penetrates the same distance as a 525 at 1550 out of a 45-70 rifle! Our testing will continue, but as it stands now, my suspicions are being validated by what we have seen so far. Eland Slayer: My "hog/Black Bear" load is a 325 LCMNGC cast, at 1062 fps. Within "iron sight" handgun ranges (50 to 60 yards or so....for my old eyes) this is all that is needed to get the job done. For your scoped handgun, where shots would be longer, a bit of an increase in velocity (1200 fps or so) would serve you very well. In closing, I have found through my experiences that after a game animal is shot, regardless of what bullet is used, it is dependant upon shot
placement as to whether that animal walks or runs off, or how far the animal travels in doing so. There is no bullet made that can compensate for a poorly placed shot! Any hunter worth his salt, strives for pinpoint accuracy in his load development and shooting skills, and in my opinion that this, above all other aspects of the hunting experience, will insure success.

Very well said, flat top! Welcome to the forum!

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Very well said, flat top! Welcome to the forum!

+1.............. I have also found that a wide meplat hard cast is indeed and excellent killer of game and is the bullet that I know will not let me down. I had a problem 3 years ago with a jacketed bullet on a hog not penetrating deeply enough. I thought that the bullet would work because it was 300 grains at 1200 FPS out of my 45 Colt. I wanted to try it and I got burned

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Very well said, flat top! Welcome to the forum!

+1.............. I have also found that a wide meplat hard cast is indeed and excellent killer of game and is the bullet that I know will not let me down. I had a problem 3 years ago with a jacketed bullet on a hog not penetrating deeply enough. I thought that the bullet would work because it was 300 grains at 1200 FPS out of my 45 Colt. I wanted to try it and I got burned

We're still waiting for the full story on the grizz and the .475.......

Thanks for the welcome Whitworth!

JWP: 10-4 on the wide meplat....All I use anymore is the LBT, or LBT like designs...used to cast my own, but with time at a premium, I have found that Beartooth Bullets are excellent, and the alloy has been proven on large game ...all seem to do the trick, and, they are very accurate as well. On the wide meplat thing...I believe it was James Gates that was telling me that when torpdoes were first manufactured, that the Navy was having problems getting the original sharp nosed design to penetrate the hulls of ships. After some research, the nose design changed to what eerily resembles the LBT cast bullet designs. The outcome was a torpedo that tracked straight, and "would" penetrate the hull of a ship consistantly. Much can be said about the wide, flat nose as far as penetration is concerned, and, its penetration that "kills".....be it a ship, or a game animal.

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:

quote:

its penetration that "kills"

I disagree.

But welcome to the forum!

Ever kill an animal that the bullet didn't penetrate through the vitails?? Even a round nose or small meplat bullet will kill if the bullet penetrates to and through the vitails.

Penetration is indeed the most important aspect of wound trauma imcapacitation. A large diameter wound is nice to have if andf only if the bullet has enough penetration

flat top, I too liked your post and appreciate the info very much, particularly the way you lay it out.

One nit to pick however, I'm not so sure about naval torpedoes and bullets. I'm not doubting the result, but the kind of considerations and dynamics involved, well, you understand. Also take a look at the shape of armor piercing main battery rounds.

There's also the example in the gun world with the .600 NE. Remember the complaining of those who wanted more point on it for better penetration, as described in Taylor's work on African rifles and cartridges? They got their way and it was redesigned and penetration as I recall was improved over the flatter design. Of course the point they were missing was that with a .600 it made absolutely no difference either way.

Anyhow, just a few questions. How about for those of us who don't reload in .44? And what about for those of us who hunt only whitetails, and not the tougher or larger game?

If that's all we're doing do you see any off-the-shelf hard cast you like? (the last factory hard cast I used on a deer was a C-B in a 250. It was a .41 not a .44 and was 1350 fps)

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:

quote:

its penetration that "kills"

I disagree.

But welcome to the forum!

Ever kill an animal that the bullet didn't penetrate through the vitails?? Even a round nose or small meplat bullet will kill if the bullet penetrates to and through the vitails.

Penetration is indeed the most important aspect of wound trauma imcapacitation. A large diameter wound is nice to have if andf only if the bullet has enough penetration

Disruption of vital tissue kills game, but penetration is required to achieve the end result. In this sense, it is the most important as if the vitals are not reached and disrupted, you won't kill the animal -- at least not in a timely fashion. So, that said, penetration is the most critical item on the agenda in order to deliver the tissue disruption to the vitals. I can't imagine that we don't all agree on this point......

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

Even a round nose or small meplat bullet will kill if the bullet penetrates to and through the vitails.

Yea it will kill - if you wait long enough. Or it might not, if the "vitals" can mend. And that's the problem with hole drillers.

When you need to reach the heart/lungs from the anus, a cast bullet is your best bet.

But when hunting, do we really need to plan for such poor shots?

I know that on this thread those who like WFN hardcast vigorously defend their choice. That's fine, but I don't think you should denigrate deforming bullets - there's just too much positive history.

quote:

Originally posted by dla:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

Even a round nose or small meplat bullet will kill if the bullet penetrates to and through the vitails.

Yea it will kill - if you wait long enough. Or it might not, if the "vitals" can mend. And that's the problem with hole drillers.

When you need to reach the heart/lungs from the anus, a cast bullet is your best bet.

But when hunting, do we really need to plan for such poor shots?

I know that on this thread those who like WFN hardcast vigorously defend their choice. That's fine, but I don't think you should denigrate deforming bullets - there's just too much positive history.

I've shoot enough of both to knowwhich is the better choice and a little hint it aint big expanding non penetrating bullets.

How about a survial stary of some animal with a bullet hole through BOTH LUNGS, NOT JUST ONE that lived

Once again, DO YOU HAND GUN HUNT?

quote:

Originally posted by dla:But when hunting, do we really need to plan for such poor shots?

I know that on this thread those who like WFN hardcast vigorously defend their choice. That's fine, but I don't think you should denigrate deforming bullets - there's just too much positive history.

Absolutely! It is our responsibility to plan for the worst case scenario. It is comforting to know with certainty, that your bullet/load will reach the vitals no matter what angle is offered. I don't like being angle limited personally.

The Bear story, OK.

This happened in 1988 outside of Kotzbou Alaska. This just happen to be the first Moose and Grizzly shot with the 475 Linebaugh. Because of work we had missed the Moose season and were looking for a flying service that would fly us in to one of the areas that were still open. We were have problems finding a flying service willing to fly us in this late in year. If bad weather were toi set in they would have problems getting us out. Ram Air in Kotzbou agreed to fly us in and off we went. We caught a plane on a in Anchroage to fly us to Kotzbou where Ram Air would fly us in to hunt.

3 Of us went David, Jimmy and myself were droped off o the Kelly River by Ram Air. My first day I set out alone and went up River and then turned right to hunt the woods back down. About mid day I spoted a Nice Bull after he had spoted me and was running from my left to right. I swung the 475 and let one fly as the sights aligned on the target. 1 shot and the Moose was done. An LBT LFN casr from wheel wieghts did the trick in short order. This was the first Moose ever taken with a 475 Linebaugh. The choice was and is an excellent one for any game that one wants to hunt.

I gutted and de-bomed the meat all by myself and that is a job on an animal this size. I placed all of the meat in meat sacks and loaded my pack and started by to camp.

Only problem was that I got turned around and went the wrong way. By the time I back tracked to the Kill site and then headed back to camp it was nearly 10 PM, too late to make another trip. The next morning when I arrived at the kill site for another load of meat, I found that most of it had been eaten by Bears. I loaded up what was left and headed back to camp. After a bite to eat Jimmy and I headed back to get the Antlers and maybe a Bear. Maybe 50 yards from the kill, I saw a huge Artic Bear walking the same trail that I had ealier come straight toward me head down smelling the trail. The Bear didn't that I was standing in on the same trail maybe 25 to 30 yards in front of him. I didn't have a tag and I was hoping that Jimmy would shoot this Bear and do so soon. Knowing that the Bear had just came off of my Moose I did not have a clue what he might do when he realized that I was there. I didn't have a tag and did not want to shoot the bear as a self defense kill. I steped to my right to get behind a tree about 6" or so in diameter hoping that it might give me a split secound more time if the Bear decided to make lunch out of me. When I got behind the tree the Bear was no more than 10 or yards from me. My movement spooked the Bear and he whirld and ran to my right. They are quite fast when they want to be. The adreinilain is running high at this point. So as we talked about what had just happened as I was choping the antlers out of the skull with a hatchet, we were quite loud. Suddenly I heard Jimmy say "Oh my god here he comes again". I immediately looked up and relized that this was a different Bear and that he did not care that we were there, he was coming in anyway. This Bear was darker and not nearly as big. The first Bear was the largest Artic Bear that I have ever seen 8 tp 8 1/2 feet. Large enough to have been a Coastal Bear. The Bear that was coming in on us turned out to be a 7 footer a large Artic Bear for sure. Jimmy fired first and the Bear went down, but was up instantly. I was down on one knee and as soon as the sights were on the Bear I fired. The Bear's position was angling away from me making for a hard quartering away shot. The bullet hit at the very back of the rib cage angling for the offside brisket. At the shot all 4 legs went straight out spread eagle style and the Grizz was down for the count. As soon as I saw the reaction to the 475 it surprised and impressed me to the point that I yelld out to Jimmy "dam did you see that". I was shooting a 390 grain LBT LFN cast out of wheel wieghts and water quenched. By then we had to make the cases from 45-70 rifle brass and our own bullets as there were not any other choices. This was also the first Bear ever shot with a 475 Linebaugh.

The Bear and Moose on the left of the picture is the ones





David, Jimmy and Myself

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:

quote:

Disruption of vital tissue kills game, but penetration is required to achieve the end result.

Agreed.

I am growing weary of this topic.


The purpose of my first post in this thread was to state that both myself, and a handgun hunter with much more experience than me (Mark Hampton), have used .44 caliber, 240 grain XTP's on hogs with success. It seems to have morphed into a cast vs. jacketed debate.

Any one that claims that a proper wide meplat hard cast bullet doesn't kill well is in my experience full of BS

I took a hog with one shot and knocked it over like a gallery target with the Buffalo Bore 325 grain Hard cast load for the 45 Colt at 218 yards. The bullet went through the rib cage, no central nervous system hit is required. All that is needed is to put the bullet through the vitails

I took an Asian Buffalo with wide meplat hard cast and had him on the ground is secounds, not minutes. I watched and timed a guy that shot a mature Bull Buffalo (Bison) useing the 500 S&W with the Winchester 400 Grain Platinum tip hollow point and it took him several shot and 20 minutes to get the Buffalo on the ground because of lack of penetration

Wide expansion at the expence of penetration is definatley not the way to go

I've still got that Ocean Front Property In Utah, are you interested?

Great story, jwp! Thanks for finally writing it out on this forum. One detail worth noting (of the many details worth noting) is the fact that jwp's hunting partner shot the bear with a .338 win mag and didn't get much of a reaction, but it certainly noticed that .475 diameter slug.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Great story, jwp! Thanks for finally writing it out on this forum. One detail worth noting (of the many details worth noting) is the fact that jwp's hunting partner shot the bear with a .338 win mag and didn't get much of a reaction, but it certainly noticed that .475 diameter slug.

A 250 grain Partition to be exact and the wound channel was larger start to finnish with the LBT hard cast bullet


Here is an exit in the rib cage of a 6X7 Bull Elk and the exit from a 300 Win mag first





The same Elk but this is the exit from a 440 grain wide meplat hard cast at 950 FPS





The hard cast has always worked well and quickly for me as well as many many others


dla do you handgun hunt???

That's a damn nice bear, x-caliber! Please share the story!

quote:

ne of my .500 caliber, 440 grain cast bullets penetrated from the bear's left rear leg to the right front leg. The smile on my face is a little deceiving. I was just thankful to be alive.

Glad that you are alive! A good penetrating bullet saved the day it seems

Eland Slayer, I would suggest you start reloading. It is the best way to tailor rounds that work well in each gun you own and you can load for any game you want to take. If not, find a friend that reloads and buy everything you need and have them with your help reload.

I have a few buddies I reload for.

IMHO: The instant that my bullet hits an animal in a "vital area" the integrity of the cardiovascular system is compromised...this causes blood pressure to drop. Regulated and constant blood pressure is necessary to support the brain/central nervous system, which controls the functions of the body of the animal....and gives it "life". When the blood pressure drops to a point where the brain/central nervous system is not supported fully, the bodily functions of the animal are deminished, and, as the pressure drops further, the brain/central nervous system shuts down...it can no longer function...we call that death. The quicker a hunter can cause the blood pressure to drop, and disable the brain/central nervous system, the less tracking he will have to do to locate his kill. An expanding bullet under the right conditions adds a hydraulic shock affect (also termed "hydrostatic shock") to a kill. I have shot many deer, and lesser game with a wildcat I developed over 30 years ago....a .224, 52 grain BTHP at 4170 fps. I never had a deer walk away from the point of impact. Upon dissection of each carcass it was found that the hydraulic shock affect of that tiny bullet at high velocity would draw much of the blood in the animals body to the point of impact...it looked like a big ball of red Jello. The drop in blood pressure was instantaneous, the brain and central nervous system shut down immediately, and the animal fell on the spot. There was only one downside to this cartridge and method of deminishing blood pressure and obtaining a kill..........shot placement "had" to be "perfect"!!! Believe me, I watched many more deer than I could ever hope to shoot walk right on by, because I could not get the "perfect" shot. I theory, medium to large centerfire cartridges with jacketed expanding bullets are designed to allow for a certain degree of hydraulic shock affect, yet, offer penetration beyond what a high velocity small bore centerfire cartridge can offer. Under the right circumstances, and with precise shot placement they will do just that. The problems that I encountered was that the parameters for ideal bullet performance proved to be quite narrow for the varying situations that I encountered afield. Yes, there were times when the performance of the bullet was perfect....yet, there were times when the performance of the bullet was no where close to what was needed to do the deed in a quick and humane manner. A 30 cal slug that opens up to create a 50 cal hole is a sight to behold...it accomplishes a level of hydraulic shock, and also creates a large wound channel. The combination of the two are the ultimate in reducing blood pressure for quick kills....when it works. A heavy, large meplat cast bullet, creates tissue damage and big holes, and also offers, to a lesser degree than the jacketed expanding bullet, hydraulic shock affect. They accomplish the task of reducing blood pressure quickly and uniformally, and with the right alloy are impervious to obstacles such as thick skin, bone, grissle, fat, etc, objects which "DO" affect the performance of an expanding bullet. The large meplat cast bullet just plows on through anything that it meets! This is the beauty of the large meplat cast (or the "solid") for hunting. The performance of the bullet is most always predictable. I have never had a large meplat cast bullet fail to get the job done, penetrate fully, and, perform predictably. I "have" had jacketed, expanding bullets fail, (shatter) on heavy bone, fail to expand, not expand at all, not penetrate deeply enough, blow half of the carcass away on the far side of the point of impact, or, in thick cover not even make it to the animal...breaking up on the first limb it hit. Because I hunt very thick cover, and this happened "before" I started using cast bullets, a buddy of mine who used cast bullets brought me down to where he had shot a deer. The deer had been fully penetrated by a hard cast bullet and lay about 20 yards from point of impact. Then my buddy showed me were the bullet had penetrated through a 4" sapling, and still managed to fully penetrate the deer which was about 10 yards on the opposite side of the sapling....about 45 yards total from my buddy's stand! My buddy told me that when he took the shot, he saw the sawdust fly, and cursed himself for not waiting for the deer to enter one of his predetermined shooting alley's. We searched for the bullet, but, it was never located. This, and many other instances of cast bullet performance encouraged me to make the switch to cast, but, only after many years of cast bullet use and experience, did I finally settle on the cast bullet for all hunting needs in both handgun and rifle. More than any other type of hunting, I consider myself a varmint hunter first and foremost, and for that purpose my 224 wildcat with fast expanding varmint bullets still serves that purpose very well. I have no qualms with hunters who use jacketed expanding bullets...its a free country....use what you like, but, for me the hard cast, wide meplat bullet works very well for my particular needs, and I see no reason to change.

x-caliber; Thanks for the welcome! It looks like that hard cast did the deed on that beautiful bear! Lucky for you, for sure! If it was not for the penetration of that hardcast, I would sure like to know what killed that bear!!!

Shack; Thanks! I would suggest contacting Randy Garrett at Garrett Cartridges and talk to him about your hunting needs. I am sure that he has a bullet/load combination that will work well for your deer hunting purposes. I have found that for me...and, I do not take "across the pasture shots" with a handgun, that a 250 to 300 grain bullet at 1000 fps does a fine job on deer, so, anything thereabouts will serve you well. If you use a scope you can move that velocity up a bit to gain a flatter trajectory for the longer distance shots that the scope affords you.

flat top, as before that's beautifully worded and persuasive (you might however want to take a look at doing a little paragraphing to help the reader - just take that in the helpful spirit intended).

On the 4" sapling experience, I've had exactly the same thing. But it was in one case with a 1970s Rem 240 jacketed SP and in another case with a Hornady 240 XTP, both in .44. The last one also went on to penetrate another sapling and the first one completely chopped in half a 2"er also. I mean, the cast are good, no question about that, but in individual instances a .44 Magnum jacketed can do certain things too.

But you do have me interested in the subject of cast bullets. I have heard of Garrett and of course there are many places that'll do custom loads. C-B is one of them and I am probably already going to use them on Auto Mag ammo (bullet requirements there are different from revolvers). But it's an idea for sure.

One other question and a comment. If you were absolutely forced to use a jacketed in 240 for whitetails only in .44 and had to pick in designs between the modern XTP, the Gold Dot or Sierra, which would you purchase? Or do you think it's a flip a coin question?

Finally, IF I read correctly what you said above, I think you're saying you are satisfied there IS such a thing as hydrostatic shock in handgun hunting. That has been somewhat the "controversial subject" here which I think you probably know about. If that's true, are you in the "momentum" or "energy" camp?

I don't think our handguns produce enough velocity for hydraulic pressure to come into play.

Shack: Thanks, and I will try to remember the paragraphing...you are correct.

I would not shoot any of the bullets you mentioned.....If I "had" to shoot a jacketed bullet, I would most likely go with a Sierra 250 grain FPJ Match( #8615 for the 44 Mag)....in a jacketed bullet they are about as close to the wide meplat cast bullets that I now use, and, I would expect performance (depending on the thickness/toughness of the jacket) to be about the same as cast.

The most important thing to remember with cast bullets is that the alloy be suitable for hunting purposes. You may not know what your getting from some loaders, and thats why I suggested Randy Garrett's products for the non-reloader. His loads and bullets have a proven history that you can count on.

My opinion (and that is all it is) is, that there is to one degree or another an amount of hydraulic shock that takes place when a bullet hits a game animal. In the case of a hyper velocity small bore, it would be more than with a heavy slow moving handgun slug, but, I am sure that it happens there as well...to a lesser degree. Of course, the fast expanding hyper velocity smallbore would not penetrate anywhere close to what the handgun bullet would, so, the smallbore would be relying predominantly on hydraulic shock affect to encourage the reduction of blood pressure to accomplish the kill.

I only use energy/momentum factors to judge one cartridge's/bullet's performance against another. For instance, I am working on a project now whereas I am modifying a levergun in a factory caliber to produce the same ballistics as the 450-400 Nitro Express. The 450-400 is a proven large game caliber, and in its factory loading will propel a 400 grain bullet at 2150 fps and produce a tad over 4000 ft lbs in energy, or, a momentum value of 86. The 450-400 has taken every game animal on the planet. If my modification is a success and I can push a 400 grain bullet at 2150 fps from this levergun, I know that the comparative energy level/momentum factor will match that of a proven cartridge (the 450-400) and therefore the levergun will be capable of taking anything that walks the earth.

Energy and momentum "theories" are just that..."theories". There has never really been a concrete set of mathematical equations to explain to us hunters "exactly" what what happens when a bullet hits matter....although many have tried. Like most shooter/hunters, I use what we have to work with, and try to cover all the mathematical angles, but in the end, its the experience that we gain from actual kills that gives us the info that we seek...dead is dead. The jacketed/cast bullet controversy will go on forever I am sure, just as the energy/momentum controversy will (until someone comes out with something better), but, its up to the hunter to make a wise choice in caliber and bullet composition selection that suits his personal performance requirements. That is why I can state what "I" prefer (through my experiences), and leave other hunters choices to them.

Above and beyond all other factors I believe that it is accuracy/shooting skills that determines the success of a kill, if the cartridge and bullet composition are up to the task.

quote:

On the 4" sapling experience, I've had exactly the same thing. But it was in one case with a 1970s Rem 240 jacketed SP and in another case with a Hornady 240 XTP, both in .44. The last one also went on to penetrate another sapling and the first one completely chopped in half a 2"er also. I mean, the cast are good, no question about that, but in individual instances a .44 Magnum jacketed can do certain things too.

Shoot into wet pack instead of wood. This will allow the expanding bullets to expand and will give a better indication wheter or not they will pentrate enough on a game animal. Wood holds the bullets together and does not allow it to open significantly. Too much expansion limits penetration dramaticaly.

Flat Top,

I too second your choice of Garrett Ammunition. While I do reload, I have found that I cannot improve on the performance of Garrett ammo on game. Everything that I have shot with my .44 and my .45/70 has died within seconds, no waiting, little tracking (how far can an animal go in seconds?), good accuracy and great terminal performance.

What more can a hunter ask for?

Thanks for the pics of the bears,and the story jwp.

Xcaliber if penetration of your 440 hard cast didn't kill that bear what did?

Shof; I do reload, but, those Garretts come highly recommended by all who use them, for those who dont reload. For my own hunting purposes I prefer Beartooth Bullets...again, A proven and reliable bullet alloy, and a great selection to choose from.

Cottonstalk; I am also waiting to find out what killed that bear. I will bet that Xcaliber was working with some kind of secret cast bullet design, and just wont give up the info!!!!

Thought you guys might like to see the new toy.....

I've owned the pistol (S&W 629 Classic) for a little over 4 years, but the scope is a brand new addition. It's a Leupold FX-II 2x20mm and is mounted on a Weigand Combat Handgun scope mount with 3 weaver style rings. In the last picture, you can also see the new grips I purchased from Smith & Wesson. They are the same grips used on their X-frame revolvers, and they are MUCH more comfortable to shoot. Let me know what yall think.....

Eland Slayer -- that looks great! How does it shoot?