The ground is rather wet here so bullet strikes of small caliber are hard to distingush at distance. Shooting a 357 Mag at a water jug at 130 yards gave little to no indication of were the bullet hit, yet the 230 grain from the 45 ACP was easy to determine.

The big bores rule, there is no dought of this to those that shoot both

Did you ever hit the jug?
The .45 is great to be sure. I was run through the mill on the single action site and have been banned. I said that I built a 1911 for a friend that shot 1/2" groups at 30 yards and I shot a 1/2" group at 50 yards with another friends Dan Wesson 1911. Notice I said "A" group, not 20 or 30! Showing what I do with a revolver labeled me a liar with guys saying they could also shoot 10 yards and say it was done at 100.
Anyway, I got tossed by calling them keyboard queens. No loss for me.
Anyway, when at an IHMSA shoot at Quantico years ago, I watched a Marine shooting off hand with a 1911 clear to 200 meters and he was hitting almost every target when getting his sight settings. I never seen anyone shoot like that. I watched through the scope while he shot----AMAZING!
However, after hitting almost every target during the shoot, he had a very low score because the bullet could not knock down the steel. But he was happy because he really out shot everyone and I was proud to have such a great man in the service of our country.
Long live the Marine Corp!

As a mattet of fact yes I hit the jug multiple times. The jug was an empty gallon mild jug. The 357 mag was shooting factory 158 jacketed soft points and the 45 ACP was shooting factory loads as well 230 grain

Tiny bullets, itty bitty splash.......

You just weren't using enough kinetic energy. Had you had enough kinetic energy, you could have disintegrated the milk jug whether you hit it or not.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
You just weren't using enough kinetic energy. Had you had enough kinetic energy, you could have disintegrated the milk jug whether you hit it or not.

Where can one buy this "kinetic energy?"

Oh, it's easy to find. Just load up too light a bullet at too fast a velocity and then begin repeating to yourself, "This combination really isn't stupid".

A .357 Mag. 8" barrel with 115 grains bullet at 2000 fps from muzzle will do the "kinetic energy" job, but I still prefer to bet to a "big bricks" fliying maybe a litle slow. Siluete shooters recipe? Guille

I remember the first time I shot my .44. I warmed up with my .357 and it kicked up a bit of dust behind the target; Billings, MT. in the summer time. I shot the .44 and I had to wait for the dust to clear so I could see the target.

Yeah, I always LOVED my .44's cause of that. No problem to adjust sights/aim by impact. Also good for trimming tree limbs off the power lines....
KY Jim

The 45 ACP with 265 gran hard cast at 900 FPS is an extremely effective load, I believe that it is not as popoular as it could be if there was more load data from the powder Comkpanies. Also all semi autos do not feed wide meplat flat points well, but those that do are well servered by such a load.

The 230 grain load wa sellected as the minimum weight that the Military would accept in 45 caliber after extensive test by Thompson& LaGaurd.

A heavy per caliber bullet at moderate velocity is very effective. John Linebaugh after many years of building the big bore revolvers and testing them has come to the conclusion that any thng over 1200 FPS with the heavy wieght bullets is not needed. I tend to agree and this reduces recoil without compremising penetration or effectivness on game. A 360 grain 45 cal WLFN is very effective at 1200 FPS as is the 420's in the 475. Thge 440 Grain in the 500 JRH at 950 FPS made this exit hole in the ofside rib cage of a Mature 6X7 Elk




Im my Expereince heavy for caliber works on every thing big, little, short or tall, kills them all.

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
I agree. I'm just saying that if you use heavy for caliber bullets, then soft lead, or expanding bullets work VERY well, and, then you might take advantage of the 1300-1500 fps velocity in some calibers....

I'm not sure you really NEED a wide meplat with some of these heavy for caliber bullets...

The soft lead will cause the nose to distort thereby hurting the bullet's potential to penetrate deeply -- particularly when you jack the speed up into that range.

You absolutely need the wide meplat -- that is what is performing the internal damage to the animal. The heavy weight carries more momentum then a light weight bullet, but the nose profile is all important.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
You just weren't using enough kinetic energy. Had you had enough kinetic energy, you could have disintegrated the milk jug whether you hit it or not.

Where can one buy this "kinetic energy?"

Use the Schwartz

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Marko:
Depends on what you are shooting.
My take is service calibers underpenetrate, unless loaded with non-expanding bullets.
If you use heavy for caliber soft expanding bullets, you get adequate penetration for MY targets. If meplat being wide is so important, why not use a wadcutter?

I guess you liked Norbert's penetrators???

Accuracy at distance is the reasion that wadcutters arenot used, even the WFN's have a tendency to be inaccurate at distance.A spin stabilzed projectile is best stabilized wth more of its wieght to the rear

Wide Meplat bullets (LFN&WLN) have proven thier ability to penetrate well and to leave wound channels comaprable to expanding bullets. Soft lead can not be driven much over 8 to 9 hundred FPS without stripping the rifling and leading the barrel badly. A bullet cast with a soft lead nose and therear out of hard casr does work well against ssmall game such as Deer as long as the rear has enough mass to continue o penetrate evenagainst bone.

No need to re-invent the wheel

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Marko:
Depends on what you are shooting.
My take is service calibers underpenetrate, unless loaded with non-expanding bullets.
If you use heavy for caliber soft expanding bullets, you get adequate penetration for MY targets. If meplat being wide is so important, why not use a wadcutter?

I guess you liked Norbert's penetrators???

It does depend on what you are shooting. I shoot animals with large caliber handguns that don't require any expansion. Shooting paper for me is only for practice and load development/testing.

Jwp beat me to it but wadcutters are too nose heavy to fly well. This is why LFNs -- with more weight to the rear than WFNs (distributed to the rear), tend to fly better at distance. You need to start hunting perhaps to see the effect a big meplat has on game.

Now explain to me why "your targets" require any penetration at all. I'm not fallowing you. If you are target shooting, you don't need penetration at all, just accuracy. Am I right?

quote:

I'm not sure you really NEED a wide meplat with some of these heavy for caliber bullets...

Did you not see the damage in the picture that I posted?

quote:

Originally posted by Czech_Made:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
You just weren't using enough kinetic energy. Had you had enough kinetic energy, you could have disintegrated the milk jug whether you hit it or not.

Where can one buy this "kinetic energy?"

Use the Schwartz

Mel Brooks has the answer!

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

I'm not sure you really NEED a wide meplat with some of these heavy for caliber bullets...

Did you not see the damage in the picture that I posted?

Jwp -- post up the photo of the pig I shot a few years ago with the 400 grain WFN in my .454 Casull -- the one where we pulled the leg off with a gentle tug while skinning. Big meplats are LETHAL.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

I'm not sure you really NEED a wide meplat with some of these heavy for caliber bullets...

Did you not see the damage in the picture that I posted?

Jwp -- post up the photo of the pig I shot a few years ago with the 400 grain WFN in my .454 Casull -- the one where we pulled the leg off with a gentle tug while skinning. Big meplats are LETHAL.

Thank you, that's the one!

quote:

All your jabs aside, I thought the damage caused was by breaking bone creating a large exit hole, as secondary projectiles.

That's a bit of sophistry on your part, since any bullet that can maintain speed through the target,
and break bones is going to create secondary projectiles, and such wounds.

Secoundary wound does not happen below 2000 FPS and does not always happen at 2000 FPS according to Dr Martin Fackler Former head of the Army wound ballistics lab and current President of the International Wound Ballistics Association


As far as a Speer 200 Grain at 1200 FPS that is 45 Super, 460 Roland velocity, not 45 ACP velocity

I have taken deer with the 200 Grain "Flying Ashtray" and even though they were advertised at 1000 FPS they were in the 900 FPS range in my gun and would not exit deer on broadside shots


This is the same Elks rig cage and this exit wound was created by a 180 grain from my 300 win mag at an impact velocityof aproximately 2600 FPS




Notice the 300 win hit bone as well and the exit is much smaller than the 500 JRH at 950 FPS with it's wide meplat hard cast

Here is the exit made by the 500 JRH again for comparison

Luckily I do not have to make that decision. The 475 is a very effective round and is vert established, but I realy like the 500 JRH alot.

Tough call, but make no mistake the 500 JRH and Linebaugh hit game harder. I mean the visual reaction of the animal (large game such as Bison and Buffalo) is greater with the 500's. I am not saying that they kill quicker, just saying that the visual of the rig cage sinking in at impact is amazing

You ask a tough question. I would not kick either caliber in the pants and it is going to depend on the platform you launch the calibers from. Boy do I hate light guns in either.
Marko's guns need 5# of lead strapped to the barrels!
Having shot a pile of deer with the .44, .475 and .45 Colt using both WLN and WFN boolits, I can't really see any difference so I would say the .500 will not improve on deer but for very large animals I would lean towards the .475 and the .500 if the gun is heavy enough so accuracy can be maintained. I admit to not being able to control a light gun to ensure hits on game.
Deer show massive internal damage with a minimum of meat loss even with slower boolits. As I speed up these boolits to my 45-70 velocities, there is no meat damage except a hole and there is almost no internal damage, lungs seem to be intact so I have gone to expansion yet do not lose penetration. I got carried away and destroyed both shoulders last season.
The WFN is just as accurate at long range as the WLN but the boolit drop is a lot more. The wad cutter will never do as good because of the way it enters the forcing cone and barrel. Long range accuracy will never be good and even tumbling boolits can happen. It is a close range paper punch. The revolver must be perfect to shoot them with accuracy.
I don't know if I buy into the weight rear on a boolit being better because some of mine have a heavier nose.
A hollow point usually shoots better but I kind of think it is because there is a bubble of air created at the nose that directs airflow smoothly. I am not ready to say it is because the most weight is at the rear. Look at the old muzzle loader stuff and shotgun slugs with heavier noses. They are made to fly like a shuttle cock. Look at arrows with heavy front ends and just feathers to stabilize. Stability is where you find it based on velocity versus rate of twist.
However the boolit from a revolver must have guidance entering the barrel and can not skid the rifling past the base band.
Give me a .44, .45, .475 or .500, cast fairly hard to make the journey through the barrel, either a WLN or WFN or RNFP and not much on earth with stay on it's feet very long.
When you start to push these boolits too fast, the nose pressure wave will move tissue out of the way creating a large secondary channel that will collapse leaving less damage inside the animal. These boolits need SLOWED down in the animal by making them expand or the animal must be large enough and tough enough to do the same thing.
Remember the revolver is a lot different then a big bore rifle with massive amounts of energy even with a solid round nose. A flat nose with the high rifle velocities would not be effective unless it expands or slows in the animal. They do track straighter then a round nose but the nose pressure wave needs broken up.
The easiest way to do this is to let the boolit nose move.

quote:

I don't know if I buy into the weight rear on a boolit being better because some of mine have a heavier nose.
A hollow point usually shoots better but I kind of think it is because there is a bubble of air created at the nose that directs airflow smoothly. I am not ready to say it is because the most weight is at the rear. Look at the old muzzle loader stuff and shotgun slugs with heavier noses. They are made to fly like a shuttle cock. Look at arrows with heavy front ends and just feathers to stabilize. Stability is where you find it based on velocity versus rate of twist.

bfrshooter it is a fact that bullets that are spin stabilized are more accurate with the center of gravity toward the rear (past center). Call Barnes technicale service and ask them, the military useing Doppler has proven this fact beyound a dought

quote:

Remember the revolver is a lot different then a big bore rifle with massive amounts of energy even with a solid round nose. A flat nose with the high rifle velocities would not be effective unless it expands or slows in the animal. They do track straighter then a round nose but the nose pressure wave needs broken up.
The easiest way to do this is to let the boolit nose move.

I do not agree with this assesment. Jack Huntington shot a Deer with the 9.3X74 with a Barnes Mono metal solid (pre-danded solid) that he flat pointed through the rib cage and the internal damage was massive. The exit on the offside was the size of a tennis ball. Meplat size matters

quote:

bfrshooter it is a fact that bullets that are spin stabilized are more accurate with the center of gravity toward the rear (past center). Call Barnes technicale service and ask them, the military useing Doppler has proven this fact beyound a dought

JWP, that is true but I am talking about revolver boolits. I have seen no difference between a hollow point and any other boolit.
I shot some yesterday at 200 yards, first with my WLN and then with my WFN boolit on the same target. This is the first time I actually set my sights for 200 with this gun and I figured the WFN would hit lower.
The surprise was that the WFN shot a smaller group INSIDE the WLN group at the exact same POI. I am going to do it again and take some pictures.

quote:

I do not agree with this assesment. Jack Huntington shot a Deer with the 9.3X74 with a Barnes Mono metal solid (pre-danded solid) that he flat pointed through the rib cage and the internal damage was massive. The exit on the offside was the size of a tennis ball. Meplat size matters

I won't argue because I have asked the question many times about the FN boolit. I don't use a rifle so I need more info on them.
I do know once I get over a certain velocity in the revolver, the hard boolit fails. I have asked if there is a velocity when they become deadly again, is there a DEAD SPOT? Mine seems to be from 1600 to 1700 fps which puts a lot of rifles like the Marlin rifles in the same spot with hard cast.
Now I also do not know what 1500 FPS does and sure do not know what 1800 or 2000 FPS does.
Instead of opening a can of worms, you are providing answers that I asked about before.
Let me ask this way, if I had a .444 Marlin and shoot hard cast, will it work or do I need to soften the boolit a little to upset the nose?
With my hunting I can only compare the higher velocity of the 45-70 revolver with poor results compared to a .45 Colt with great results, both with the same type boolits cast hard.
How does a .460 with hard boolits compare with a .45 Colt using the same boolit?
If you check back with my posts you will see I wanted to know if there is a point that the FN boolit starts to work again.
I do not know the answer and can only relate what has happened to me in a certain velocity range.
Marko has seen the results.
Please fellas, don't start anything, just show results to evaluate.
I know it is hard to do between a deer and an elk or a larger animal too. Add in all the different calibers and it is not apples and oranges, it is an apple cart and an orange cart.

quote:

My guess is that the .500 JRH exit wound was from an 'expanding bullet'.
On heavy bone, some of those wide meplats do 'expand', and widen to near an inch. Wonder if that was the case.

That is simply not true I've been shooting game with a handgun an hardcast bullets since thew 70' and a "hard ast bullet wiil not, doesnot expand to over and inch. A soft lead maybe, but not a hard cast.

Where do you come up with the BS, even the pictures that you posted do not bear out your claim. In facy you are rather annoying with all of this because you only punch paper and have zero experience in the area, yet you make statements as if they are fact, when they are only your speculations.. The only reason that I reply is to correct the info, because most in this forum hunters and are searching to exchange accurate info.

quote:

JWP, that is true but I am talking about revolver boolits. I have seen no difference between a hollow point and any other boolit.
I shot some yesterday at 200 yards, first with my WLN and then with my WFN boolit on the same target. This is the first time I actually set my sights for 200 with this gun and I figured the WFN would hit lower.
The surprise was that the WFN shot a smaller group INSIDE the WLN group at the exact same POI. I am going to do it again and take some pictures.

I agre, all of those bullets are rear wieght biased

Nw what are we calling a WFN? Thebullet that you cast has a meplat width that is a little wide than a LBT LFN, yet smaller than a LBT WFN. I am talking about Veral Smith's spec's for LFN and WFN's. Sometimes the LBT WFN's in some guns have been very accurate to a hundred are so yards, but at longer ranges not so much in general. In my revolver they didn't shoot very well.

Your bullet shoots more like an LBT LFN from wht I can tell

I just measured it, it is a 79% meplat. It out shoots the boolit with a 74% meplat.
I have no idea what The LBT .460 WFN boolit meplat measures so I can't say.
My boolit is also a plain base. The 74% boolit hss a gas check.
I shot them again today. It was just above freezing and trying to rain, miserable out.
I was wrong, the WFN PB shoots 6" higher then the WLN and shoots a little tighter at 200.
I need to get some pictures yet.
Not sure about what to call the boolits just that one has a larger meplat. Maybe it is an "almost WFN." I won't quibble!
Kind of shows that at over 1630 FPS, a gas check is not needed.

From Veral Smith on
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/i.../topic,140942.0.html

quote:

Veral
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Re: Requirements For LFN & WFN's
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2008, 02:18:30 PM » Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Understand that both nose shapes are available in about any caliber one wants to order, same as all the LBT profiles, so meplate diameter will change with caliber. For the WFN, and WLN, meplat diameter is .090 smaller than the diameter ordered. For the LFN, and LCFN, meplat diameter is .120 smaller than diameter ordered. -- The WLN wears a longer ogive length than the WFN, ditto the LCFN compared to the LFN..

quote:

"Expanding" .500JRH bullet:

I am preetty sure that your picture shows a couple of hard cast from the 500 JRH that degraded the nose and became wadcutters and a 9.3 Woodliegh soft point 320 grain

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
I thought the one on the left was a bullet that hit heavy bone in a buffalo, and was also a .500JRH.

I could be wrong, however...

You are definately wrong the one one thge lefty is a 320 grain Woodliegh Soft point fired from the 9.3X74R recovered from the Asian Buffalo

Hard cast bullets don't expand like jacketed bullets; anyone with any common sense or experience shooting game at all would know that. One does not need to be a rocket scientist to know the bullet on the left is jacketed.

Like I said, it's an experience thing; not something one can read up on the computer and become knowledgeable.

There are too many self-proclaimed computer experts who in reality do not possess even the rudimentary knowledge and believe me, it glares like a beacon in these forums.

Am I glowing??

Bfrshooter -- I refer to your 420 grain bullet as a AWFN -- Almost a Wide Flat Nose. The last time we measured we got an 80% figure.....anyhow, I think it is optimal in that 77 - 80% range -- they do lots of damage with that meplat, yet still fly reasonably well at distance.

JWP, I just measured again, it is a little hard because the edge rounds a tad. My 45-70 boolit's meplat is .095" smaller then the diameter of .460". A .458" boolit would have the nose .093" less.
So, as Marko named it, it is an AWFN and I can't argue over .005".
My .475 boolit has a meplat .110" smaller so it will fall between a WLN and WFN so it can really be called an AWFN.
No matter, for a PB it is so accurate and deadly on game that I would never try and change it.
Marko will have to send you some to play with.

Why do I have the "honor" of sending them to jwp??

My lead, my mold, at least you could pay postage!

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
My lead, my mold, at least you could pay postage!

Only if you cast 'em!