Hi everybody. In another post there was some discussion about Ranger Rick's huge cast bullets and possible gun damage.

Has there been any guns damaged from shooting the extreme heavy weight bullets?

OK, Im shooting a 330gr hardcast in my Redhawk 44, is that considered extreme?

Back when the heavy 44 bullet was 240-250gns it would have been extreme. Today I think it would be the top end of the regular heavy weights.

Assuming you have published load data from a component manufacturer for that bullet, and published pressures as well, you may be okay. Otherwise, you are in uncharted waters, as far as I am concerned.

There is no reliable way to read handgun pressures using fired brass expansion and primer flatness, to the best of my knowledge. From what I understand, firearms only take so much before they come apart, and typically the fatigue is due to repeated battering by over-pressure loads.

+1 for what Doubless said. Its a matter of chamber pressure, not bullet weight. You can shoot the super heavies as much as any other slighter bullet, as long as they operate at the same pressure. The few exceptions might be something like the old Arminius guns with major components cast from pot metal or the older soft-steel replica six guns. Those alloys don't take kindly to the increased recoil regardless of pressures.

I am a big fan of Quickload. I know that some say it doesn't model straight walled cases correctly, but it does a fairly good job of estimating velocity in everything I've tried it on and then verified with a chrony. I talked with a ballistition from Western Powders last year that said they use quickload quite often also. He said the biggest things to look for were accurate measurements of the bullet length and loaded length to give you useable case volume. He also said to use a chronograph, if you get a jump in velocity, then you've also had a jump in pressure.

So... with all of that, I feel fairly comfortable stuffing huge bullets where they may not have been originally intended to go.

I don't like trying to push the pressure limits anymore, they just aren't as much fun to shoot.

Pressure with all kinds of boolits will be the same, none can exceed what the gun can handle.
Recoil is another problem and heavy recoil can damage a gun. Shearing screws, breaking grip frames, peening parts, etc.
You can cut recoil with heavy boolits by using wimp loads so why bother?

Linebaugh says they are getting nearly the same penetration with loads around 950fps vs the top end loads(1350-1400?). It's easier on the gun and shooter...

I was just wondering if there has actually been any damaged guns from the very heavy weights.

I'm off to Cody for the seminar, see you guys in a week.

quote:

Pressure with all kinds of boolits will be the same, none can exceed what the gun can handle.

What are you saying here? I don't understand this sentence...

Simple. just because the boolit weight goes up does not mean you increase pressure. Loads must be safe. If a gun is rated for 39,000 psi, you do not load a heavy boolit to 50,000 psi. You stay at 39,000 or below, that makes the heavy boolit slower.
Just what makes you think a safe load can be exceeded by increasing boolit weight?

A simple law of physics called inertia. Load a 250-grain bullet with a max charge of your favorite powder, H110, and touch it off. Then use the same powder charge with a 330-grain bullet and see what happens to your revolver. You may not see energetic disassembly, but you will do the revolver no favors.

Take a look at load manuals... ever wonder why the same powder is reduced for heavier bullets? Well, duh!

Could have something to do with the fact that the same charge of powder won't fit in the case with the larger bullet......

From what I am reading, bfr and Doubless are saying basically the same thing; just taking very different paths to get there.

What some here are missing is, heavy bullets cause more back thrust, that is what is damaging a lot of the guns. It is not the pressure! Whitworth is right, the larger the bullet the less powder you can put in the case.

Back thrust is what will stretch a guns frame.

One more thing, yes pressure will damage a gun as well, but you can get higher pressures a lot easier with a lighter bullet than a heavier bullet..Due to more case capacity for powder. Also certain powders will allow you to get higher pressures, even with a lighter powder charge.. One powder comes to mind Titegroup.

Hitman, maybe I just don't understand what BFR was saying... And Marko, when I visited the FA factory years ago, the then marketing Mgr., I believe his name was Marty Smith, told me that they used special full case collet dies to seat projectiles in greatly over-loaded cases to test the prototypes. He also told me they reached 2000 fps with a 230-grain JRN during prototype testing of the ACP cylinder in their Model 83 454. They used Bullseye!!!!!

So the powder(s) WILL fit, at least some of them will. You are correct with powders like 296 & H110, but there are a lot of others that WOULD fit nicely behind the larger projectile in sufficient amounts to blow a revolver.

quote:

Posted 09 June 2011 07:48 Hide Post
A simple law of physics called inertia. Load a 250-grain bullet with a max charge of your favorite powder, H110, and touch it off. Then use the same powder charge with a 330-grain bullet and see what happens to your revolver. You may not see energetic disassembly, but you will do the revolver no favors.

Take a look at load manuals... ever wonder why the same powder is reduced for heavier bullets? Well, duh!

OH MY, just how out of touch is that? Lighter boolits take more powder then heavy boolits or does that escape you?
One pressure with a light boolit means that the same pressure with a heavier boolit means LESS POWDER.
Boolit weights increase recoil from INERTIA and weight moved.
Heavy boolits recoil more with the same pressure as light boolits, maybe not as "SNAPPY" but still more.
Just when has anyone said you use the same powder charge for all boolits?

Bullseye to 2000 fps in a revolver is shrapnel out to a half mile. Just what Cool Aid did they serve?

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Bullseye to 2000 fps in a revolver is shrapnel out to a half mile. Just what Cool Aid did they serve?

Okay, you arrogant ass : you finally did it. You have shown your ignorance, and called somebody a bald faced liar. If you knew 1% of what you think you know you would truly be an intelligent man. Unfortunately you talk out of your anal opening about 90% ofthe time.


Have you EVER EVER EVER seen an FA blow? No, Mr. I Know it All, and you never will. What they were trying to do was blow the damned thing up, and they couldn't! It was done for DE purposes (and if you don't understand the term I will explain it to you).

Do us all a favor and go away. Your lack of intellect and condescending attitude is really beginning to get under my skin!

Bullseye SCARES me and I don't care what tests are done with it. I don't care if dynamite is stuffed in a case.
I never said anything about a lie and it could have been done but I want to be a mile away.
Fooling with Bullseye in those amounts is testing to destruction.
Easy for a gun maker like a car maker meeting safety standards where they destroy cars.
Do you suggest a Freedom owner can fill the case with Bullseye? Don't sip too much!

READ THE FRIGGING POST, JIM. DO YOU SEE WHERE I SAID THEY WERE TRYING TO BLOW THE THING UP AND COULDN'T? NOW READ YOUR POST IMMEDIATELY BELOW IT WHERE YOU SAY THAT WILL BLOW SHRAPNEL HALF A MILE AND TELL ME YOU DIDN'T CALL ME A LIAR.

"I DON'T CARE, I DON'T CARE..." NO, YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE ANYONE HAS TO SAY. YOU KNOW IT ALL, DON'T YOU, JIM?

I NEVER SUGGESTED ANY LOAD, PERIOD. YOU TWIST WHAT I WRITE TO BENEFIT YOUR LOONY IDEAS AND THOUGHT PROCESS. YOU MAY NOT BE ABLE TO READ A HANDLOADING MANUAL THAT OFFERS LOADING DATA FOR BULLSEYE, BUT OTHERS OF US CAN AND DO.

YOU ARE NOT THE WORLD'S AUTHORITY ON HANDGUNS AND/OR LOADING FOR THEM, DESPITE YOUR OVER-INFLATED OPINION OF YOURSELF.

FINALLY, RELAX; WEST VIRGINIA IS A LONG WAY FROM WYOMING...

AND YES, I AM YELLING!

DAMNIT, JIM!!!!!!

You are yelling, too, it appears! But I am laughing...

Yeah, me too, it was all kind of funny!
What in the world are we arguing about anyway?
Yep, we just don't understand what each said! for both of us.

Hi everybody. I just got back from the Big Bore seminar in Cody. I talked with John on this subject and he said that he did get one damaged gun back, but it was from shooting homemade solid brass bullets with a solid shank and no driving bands. It damaged the cylinder and barrel, but it was not a cast bullet that did it.
I also talked with Tony Grant of Grizzly Custom, he said he has not seen nor heard of any damaged guns from shooting excessivly huge bullets. He said he shoots 525gn cast in his 500 Linebaugh.
There was a guy there with several huge custom BFRs, 50 Alaskan, 50-90... some of his loads were useing 650gn cast at max pressures and hasn't seen any problems.

Just thought I'd pass this along. FWIW

quote:

Posted 14 June 2011 17:09 Hide Post
Hi everybody. I just got back from the Big Bore seminar in Cody. I talked with John on this subject and he said that he did get one damaged gun back, but it was from shooting homemade solid brass bullets with a solid shank and no driving bands. It damaged the cylinder and barrel, but it was not a cast bullet that did it.
I also talked with Tony Grant of Grizzly Custom, he said he has not seen nor heard of any damaged guns from shooting excessivly huge bullets. He said he shoots 525gn cast in his 500 Linebaugh.
There was a guy there with several huge custom BFRs, 50 Alaskan, 50-90... some of his loads were useing 650gn cast at max pressures and hasn't seen any problems.

Just thought I'd pass this along. FWIW

He is correct.
Damage depends on the gun. Older S&W's, Ruger's with aluminum grip frames. Any single action with a poor fitting cylinder pin. Any with a few loose screws that will shear.
A good gun can stand a lot of recoil. But I was saying recoil is more with a heavy boolit over a light one with no more pressure.
Shoot 1200 fps with Unique and also with 296, which recoils more? 296 of course because powder weight adds to boolit weight.
To reduce recoil with heavy boolits means to reduce velocity and charge weights below where the boolit is accurate.
Take the .44. Use a 240 gr with 24 gr of 296 but put the 320 gr in with 21.5 gr and the heavy boolit recoils more even though it is slower. To equal recoil, the 320 needs reduced more so that means a faster powder that will ruin accuracy both from the faster pressure rise but also from the mismatch to the rifling.
You can't have your cake after eating it.
The big 405 gr, .44 boolit used 13.8 gr of 2400, recoil was nothing but the boolit would not stabilize and went through paper sideways at 50 yards. It can not be shot fast enough because of pressure so it recoils less.
As boolits get real heavy, max pressure must stay the same or below. You can't shoot a 240 at 1400 fps and expect a 405 to do 1400.
Extreme boolit weights can actually do less damage because they can't be pushed. They are shoved down the bore.
I have thought about it a lot and conclude that heavy for caliber will recoil more but go to extremes and recoil can be less. Accuracy is another question and it will just go away with the nutty boolits.
Shoot 10 yards into soaked paper with a .405 gr, .44 or a 700 gr, .500 and penetration might be good but can be lower then a decent weight. Don't expect to hit anything from 50 yards out and maybe 20 yards is too far.
Do like Taffin does. Shoot six at 20 yards and only measure 5 out of six. I did that at 100 yards and shot a 1 hole group, I counted 1 out of 6!
I consider the max with a .44 is 330 gr. Just luck my boolit will shoot and 300 to 320 is better. The .44 thrives on a 240 gr too so why go to a 405 gr? I wonder what those groove are for in the barrel?