I just read an old gun magazine and the author was telling me how the 9mm was going to bury the .45 ACP now that the military had adopted the 9.

Well, now that the American police and military have had a good dose of the 9mm.....it seems to me this guy spoke a bit too soon. No doubt all the pistol commotion has dipped into the venerable old .45s popularity a tad, but from where I sit, I think the .45 will live to dance on the 9mm's grave. Definately not vice versa.

The new .40/10mm's will be the pall bearers.

I say the .45 will be around as long as the 30/30 and 30/06.

Long live the .45ACP

Theres no way the 9mm could bury the 45! Since a 9mm is half a gun .

Standard 9mm shoots a 115gr bullet which is exactly half of the 45s 230gr bullet hence half a gun

Just ask our boys and girls in the desert. In private messenges, the biggest topic beside not wanting to be there was how can they get a 45 ACP sent to them. Full patch 9 mil is just for the birds. Some dipshit said some time ago " The 9 MM has killed more people than any caliber in WWII." What wasn't relayed was that close to 90% of the 9's used were submachineguns.

I agree boys. I've always felt the 9mm was the most overrated handgun cartridge to ever exist. I've been a big fan of the .35 bore pistols all my life and I wouldn't trade a good 38 Special for any three 9mms every made. The .357 is from another galaxy compared to the 9.

The 9 probably does make a pretty good submachine gun cartridge, however. And that's good because anything you shoot with a 9mm, you'd better shoot it several times.

Not to knock the .45 because it has a well deserved reputation and I am also a big fan. Last year some friends and I set up some targets at about 50 feet. These included split birch logs, green watermelons and some plastic javex bottles filled with mud. We shot 9mm Corbon and Stealth Magsafe, .40 sw 185 grain federal and .45 acp 230 grain fmj. To be honest I would give the edge to the 9mm Magsafe Stealth rounds for the most damage. But, basically all three calibers were blown away when we moved up to using a .44 Mag and another significant step up again with the .50 AE. I remember reading somewhere that the three standard service rounds 9,40 and 45, were still only basic pistol rounds and even at that, bullet design and loading were generally more important than caliber in terms of overall effectiveness...pretty much what we saw that day.. FWIW.

Harley, I agree with what you are saying here. I think the issue between the 9, the 10 and the 45 boils down to what can be depended on day in and day out to do the job.

I think if a person had the luxury of always being able to mix and match his bullet to the target, he could do pretty well with the 9mm in most instances. But out of a small pistol cartridge, one size doesn't fit all. This is why the .45 is so dependable. The old round nose 230gr ball ammo is just about guaranteed to give you deep penetration and a 1/2 wide wound channel. And it's not likely to wander around in the body of the target. It's just kind of a big, slow, dumb bullet that just goes where you point it. Fortunately that usually works!

Also, the SIZE of the .45 seems to be about maximum for a day to day carry gun. I knew cops who tried to carry the .44 when it first came out. They got sick of its weight and bulk real quick and went back to 38s and .357s. (Plus all of them tried to shoot factory max loads in them and none of them could control it or hit squat with it.)

But I can't argue the pistols from the .41Mag on up are in a class by themselves.

I'm just saying in my mind, the old .45 is and probably always will be the king of the "duty guns."

I'll tell you something else I love about the .45ACP. Many years ago I woke up to a sound in the house and I was convinced someone had broken in. I eased out of the bed, told the wife to stay put and got my .45 auto. I always kept a clip full but nothing in the chamber.

When I racked the slide back and heard that "Ka-chunk" of a round going home, a great calm came over me. I knew two things. 1. I could deal with whoever was in the house. 2. He probably just shit in his pants.

Fortunately the whole incident was a false alarm, but you get my point. The sound of the old .45 going into battery is one SERIOUS noise.


[ 08-11-2003, 04:58: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

The 10mm or .40 might bury the 9mm, but the 9 bury the .45? 100 plus years of combat (counting the .45 Colt) say, "No F...ing Way."

Harley 2 you can't compare a 45 fmj to a 9mm Magsafe and expect it (45) to show good results only better penertation.

The 10mm is the only one I could barely put in front of the 45 and not but much.

Now as for the 44 mag vs. the 50 AE thats a toss up, I've had both and prefer the the 50 BIGGER HOLE and more man portabile in my hands.

I agree that it's not a fair comparison of different bullet types. You could compare FMJ's in 9 and 45, then compare a JHP in 9 and 45.
I was a witness to a hit and run yesterday, after the cops got all the info, we got to talking guns and they were carrying Glock 45's. I see it being a much more useful round than a 9mm.

I absolutely agree with the above posts. I guess the point I was making was that a dozen or more magsafe or +p jhp in a 9mm pistol can be quite formidable also.

9mm adopted by US for handguns as concession to Nato allies for making them adopt 7.62 and 5.56 Nato rounds...it's just more Eurotrash in FMJ loadings and I know...I have to carry it in my Beretta M9. There are better loadings, but we can't use it. If it's fmj you must carry, the 45 is the gun.

9mm nato load =Junk.

regards,
Graycg

GrayCg - I think you are exactly right how the 9mm came to be thrust on the American Army. A sad day.

Europeans need to grow up and learn to shoot PISTOLS. Obviously it's something they don't do much of. I suspect most people around the world would be struck dumb by the way American shooters and hunters use handguns. Even in the few years since I've stopped shooting pistols competitively, there have been some awesome changes and unbelievable new calibers. I've about decided there is NOTHING an American won't put in a handgun and try to shoot it.

If the Great Sage of all things with handguns and pistols , says that the Marines are looking for a new handgun to replace the M-9 Beretta. What Cooper says is that they are looking for the 1911 45 ACP. It would not surprise me that since we been fighting wars, for the last 14 years. The 45 just may make it back to the loving hands of Marines, Soldiers, Squids, Sky Cops, and your every day soccer mom. John Browning got it right back in 1910. And of all things S&W makes a 1911 that suppose to be pretty good too. Now if the Russians would just buy that like they did the S&W # 3 , I can then say what goes around comes around. It was stupid to get rid of the 1911, hell they would never get rid of the M-2 .50 BMG, they would go naked first.

GrayCg, There is a psychological difference in the way Europe and North America view things. A few years back a German friend of mine bought a BMW 850I for about 130,000 Canadian dollars and was explaining to me it was the best automobile ever built. It was certainly a beautiful car and a joy to drive, however, when I pointed out that (at the time) the top of the line ZR1 Corvette at about 65,000 Canadian dollars would out accelerate, out handle and stop faster, well he changed the subject. Sometimes the name and image peddlers write checks that they just can't cash when confronted by the real world. There are are quite a few that still believe that if it isn't European it isn't the best. This attitude may have contributed to the adoption of the 9mm, but as usual it took the North American bullet manufacturers to turn this pinto into a quasi quarter horse.

Yeah,,And the ultra piss ant .25acp was another european brainstorm.Sorry John B..Something with barely enough gas to get through the clothes and poke a hole in the liver,,,,,,,last resort or really "close" situations There's no room on my vault for either a .25 or a 9mm.

George S you are right look how long it took S&W to build a 1911. It must be good since Dan Wesson (you know the revolver people) to build one with most of the stuff they knew people would add on and at a good price to start, including a 10mm.

Harley 2,
I hear you. Let's face it, most European armies and especially police forces carried 32 and 380s through both world wars as sidearms. The Europeans used see a sidearm more a badge of office than a real weapon. Much of that changed with the advent of terrorism in Europe and then bigger guns came out. I have no problems with and like many European guns and some of their cartridges, but the 9mm FMJ nato round is still a pussy...

regards,
Graycg

Gentleman,
I'll be one of the first to agree that the 9m/m nato FMJ is a pussy, however a full case of Unique and a 90 or 115gr.HP does change the picture. And yes I do own a .45ACP
Stepchild

Stepchild - The hotter loads and better bullets in the 9mm may "change the picture" but they still don't equal a .45.

It took two very dead FBI agents carrying 9mms a few years ago to begin this realization. The criminal who killed them both had been shot several times with their 9s.

Let me add this and I'll hush. There are other pistols I believe I enjoy shooting more than a .45 auto simply because they are a little faster, flatter and easier to hit many things with. But I will NEVER underestimate the .45's ability as a defensive weapon or its abilities on the target circuit. It's a classic and I can well appreciate that.

The 9mm may be the "classic" of Europe and many other countries.....but only because they never had the advantage of our .45. They'll wake up someday.

The Navy still uses the 1911-A1 45acp. Those old guns may look old and have many hard miles on them, but they still shoot good. When we would have gun qualifications underway, they would just sweep the empty brass over the side, so I started volunteering to cleanup afterwards. I have piles of TZZ 45 brass and it works great. I ended up giveing all my Rem, Win and federal brass away so I wouldn't contaminate my hoard of TZZ brass.

Pecos45,
Although I have never shot flesh of any kind with a 9m/m, I have done quite a bit of media testing and judging from recovered bullets it looks like it would certainly be up to the task, as a defence round.Pretty nasty wound channels.
The 45's have passed the test with flying colors,and have a large following for sure.
I think in a do or die situation, i'd grab my 6" Python.
Stepchild

I had a choice between the 9mm and the .45 I chose the .45!

Roger on that TZZ 45 brass!!! That stuff was made my IMI in Isreal and is hard to beat! I have several that have probably been reloaded 30+ times and other than dings they are going strong and will probably remain so. They are so good that I even invested in a 45ACP trim die and extended shell holder to even them all up once in a while. My Wilsonized Springfield Trophy Match loves this stuff.

regards,
Graycg

I am sure all of the above are personal preferances, which is fine, but imagine that you a put in charge of selecting a defensive pistol for:

1. An urban police department

2. A highway patrol officer

3. A private security service

4. Home defense

5. MPs.

You are also responsible for training and for setting minimum performance criteria for successful completion of your training course. The 45 ACP is not a good compromise weapon...it works for you, but it is likely to only work for a small percentage of the folks you are responsibel for. The 9MM is a bit on the light side, but one of the easiest to qualify with. the 40 S&W mahes Major, and is nearly as easy to qualify with as the 9MM. The 10MM borders on too much power and penetration, and is jast as hard to shoot well as the 45 ACP. Now make your choice.

Suddenly, its no longer personal...you have so many ages, shapes, sizes, genders and field conditions that a one-gun solution must be a compromise.

Sabot - You pose an familiar argument. I think it's called lowering the standars. Don't we have enough of that in America already? If the guys can't read or write, do we lower our standards and allow cops and guards who can nod their heads only to qualify?

You get my drift. The notion of always lowering standards to the point where any dingaling can do it is one of the many ailments infecting the country IMHO.

Anyone who can't measure up to the standards needs to go find another field of endeavor.

Now, am I saying it's the sacred old .45 or nothing? No. The purpose of this thread was just to point out that the 9mm is a piss poor substitute for the .45, which Lord knows it is.

Do I care what gun we select for the tasks you outline? Not exactly. I just think it ought to be a pistol and cartridge more than adequate to do the job intended. If that is the .40 S&W, that's fine by me. Same for the 10. Same for the .45.

My point is the 9 has already proven IT ISN'T a very good choice. Can we move on from that mistake?

I think the .45 has a very mistaken reputation for being "difficult to master/handle/shoot."

Compared to a lot of pistols, the .45ACP is a pussycat. I can't prove it but I think much of the legend of a .45's difficult handling was created by our military's early dumbass pistol instructors who couldn't shoot their way out of a paper sack with anything. Naaturally they produced some poor results. The old army FREQUENTLY had the blind leading the blind. I saw some sterling examples of this in my military days. Old worn out sargents were often given the job of instructing in fields they were woefully inadequate to teach.

I think given a good pistol and competent instructors, MOST people can be trained to be reasonably good pistol shots. The problem isn't the .45. Modern sights and refinements on this old warhorse have made it even easier to shoot well.

But whatever we get, let's get one that works. The guys who can't cut the mustard don't belong there to start with.

Second that. Combine that with the US Army's unofficial view of pistol marksmanship: Handed, butt-forward, to your captor, while your left hand remains in the air.

Frankly, noone (in the "official" Army) believes in the pistol to begin with, and the sort of people who cannot shoot a .40/.45 shouldn't be carrying one.

Since when is the .45 hard to shoot? It has very little recoil. When I hear someone say that, I gotta wonder where they are coming from.

[ 08-22-2003, 09:58: Message edited by: 120mm ]

120 - I know a fellow who was grabbed by three North Koreans during that little police action. While one held him from behind, the other two started kicking and beating him.

Unfortunately they forgot he was wearing a .45 auto.

Not long after he maneuvered his hand onto his pistol, raised it and put a couple of 230 gr bullets thru the rib cages of his tormentors, the Korean trying to hold his arms realized he was is a world of shit.

This unfortunate chap released my friend's arms and tried to run for it. You can guess the finale.

Pecos45 -

That running NK probably thought what Abe Lincoln did about the civil war "...somebody come and help me let this hog go!!!"

Hey...I love the 45 ACP. I think the difficulty in mastering it for the first time is that there is enough recoil that the slow moving bullet is affected by the barrel lift more than some other pistols. It will do this very consistently, and will be very accurate as long as your hold is consistent and you don't start squeezing it harder or overrelaxing.

Of course, none of this matters at 3 paces!

Absolutly no way can any 9 compare to a 45 never mind replace it! derf

Hell, if my little 5', 105# wife can handle my Para P14-45, anybody should be able to tame a single stack 1911. That old "It's hard to handle" line is most likely puked out by folks who've never handled a .45, let alone a well built one that fits...

Sabot - I've know "natural" pistol shots that seemed capable of picking up any unknown pistol and shooting it like they designed the thing.

Sadly, I've always had to work a little to get proficient with each pistol. As you suggest, the .45 has some of its own unique characteristics and "feels." It takes a bit of practice and familiarizing as well.

Harley #2
You want a good accurate test try the Magna safe ammo in both 45-9 then tell me that little 9mm is just as effective as the 45 ACP, you'll see that the 9mm doesn't come close with that ammo. Want some real explosive action shoot some p+ 185/200gr HPs out of the 45!! Yep heard way to many comments from the troops in Afgan about how the 9 mm is a piece of crap! They are finding what Cops already know it does stop hopped up perps! I like to know when I shoot someone it only needs to be once or twice not 10-20 times!

[ 08-22-2003, 21:56: Message edited by: Gunnut45/454 ]

.45 Colt will bury them all.

Those terrorists are all hopped up on... on.... well, Turkish coffee and broad misconceptions... well, they need something that will put them down- pronto. It's not Metric. Metric was invented by the French. No crap, boys- the original meter stick is in Paris, France.

There you have it.

As the bumper sticker says:
"Guns don't kill people,
It's the big hole that does that."

Pete