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It's just hard to beat a properly loaded .45 Colt. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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I got charged last fall by a good sized Black Bear eating on the deer we were tracking. There were 4 of us doing the tracking after dark and in pretty thick cover. When we found the deer we yelled to scare the bear off. The bear was about 25 yds away busy eating the deer. The first few yells didn't even get a response. When everyone started yelling the bear just charged. Probably just a bluff. But at about 20 yds I fired at the bears head; everyone was saying shoot, shoot, shoot. I already had my .41 Smith 57 drawn when we started yelling at the bear. I don't think that I hit him because we didn't find any blood. He decided to go the other way at the shot though. Before we got the deer cut in half another sow and three cubs came downwind to about 20 yds of us. I saw all the eyes shining and though it was a bunch of coyotes but it wasn't. I stood up saying we got bears and everyone started yelling again. Right off two of the closest cubs turned tail. The front cub was ahead of the sow and the sow ran to just in front of the cub and was stomping and popping her jaws; I though we were in real trouble this time. I had my .41 ready again and with everyone yelling shoot I waited to see if she would back off and she finally did when the cub turned and ran. We had 5 bear within 25 yds in about 15 minutes and I was the only one armed. Long story a little shorter I had rather have a shotgun with buckshot on fast moving charging critters. If the bear is on me I'll take the handgun. But if I have a good shotgun fully loaded with big buckshot nothing is going to get me down around here. If I know I am tracking dangerous wounded game I'll carry both. I am rarely without a sidearm anyway. As far as single vs. double; I carry a double most of the time but shoot it single. When me and my buddies have a home invader course I can shoot my double action like a single action as fast and accurate as most can with a auto. This is counting the draw. You just cock the hammer as you draw the weapon. I find this easier than shooting double action. And we usually just draw and shoot one shot at a target not multiple shots. You need to be familiar with your weapon no matter what you choose. Like pointing your finger. It should be natural. I have a shotgun by the bed. My wife said that she couldn't shoot anyone and I told her to just shoot the shotgun in the house and anyone would be leaving pretty quick; just don't shoot the big windows or the hardwood floor. A shotgun at close range is devistating and you don't have to be very steady at the shot. You can't have too many weapons can you? God Bless, Louis | |||
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I am looking forward to Elk hunting this fall here in Idaho. Wolves home in on gunshots, and have been known to foolishly argue over an Elk kill with folks. That's why I get a tag and pray for an encounter. Bears just come up on your butt with no noise. The wolves like to let you know they are there. Dumb... Rich | |||
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Great post, some of those that have not hunted bear or hunted in heavily populated black bear country should take note to this post above! If a black bear is not afraid of you, you are in trouble, they are going to kill you. But the percentage of that is low, but being prepared is just an insurance policy. If I am not mistaken, more people are kill by black bear then Grizzly. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Rich, I know what you mean. When we were looking for my buddies bear 2 years ago, we had 2 come in on us, and did not even know it until they were right there. Not a good feeling at all, and it is dark in them woods late at night with that little flash light. They are very quit. Getting packed up and leaving the 28th for Maine for another black bear hunt with Wild Country Outfitters. Ground blind hunting, 12 to 15 yards from the bait site.. 510 GNR on the side for the walk out of the woods.  If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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youngoutdoors You brought up a point that many do not consider, whether for animal protection or "human" protection, is that with a DA revolver you can hammer cock [ie thumb cock] when you want or trigger cock [ie shoot double action], when you want/need to. Also you can reload a S&W DA revolver a LOT faster than a Single Action... Truth is, in Todays World, even in the "woods", you are probably in more danger from 2 legged animals than four legged... With a DA Revolver, you have both situations covered. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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i guess i dont worry about bears much when in the woods. I live in an area that has lots of black bear. Ive shot them off my back porch. Seeing one while walking in the woods is about as rare as seeing lightning hit the ground. Sure it happens but its dammed rare. If im carrying a handgun im handgun hunting and if im carrying a rifle im rifle hunting and dont want to be weighted down carrying two guns. I never could see the thought behind a backup gun. If your gun isnt reliable enough to trust leave it at home and if your around dangerous animals whos stupid enough to leave it laying somewhere. One thing that has been touched on i agree with. Many macho guys carry to much gun. A 475 or 500 is a great hunting tool for someone that can actually shoot it well. Most think that because they can shoot a group on the bench that they are good to go. Using a big bore gun takes A LOT of practice. In most cases thousands of rounds are nessisary to actually master it and if your not willing to put in the time a 44 mag or 45 colt is a better choise. bear and other dangerous game arent as impressed as your buddys at the range are when you draw that 500 out of the holster. | |||
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Lloyd, your last statement is so true. But it is not just the 500's that some guys can't shoot. I seen the same thing from 44 Mag's and even 357 Mags. People that handgun hunt are a different bread. I am not talking the guy that decides to buy a handgun a week before season here. I am talking about guys like myself, you, Marko, JWP, BFRshooter and a few others here that handgun hunt a lot. I personally shoot thousands of rounds from my handguns every year, and have been handgun hunting close to 30 years now. Hunting situations and having to save your ass are totally two different things. One is a controlled setting, and the others is off the cuff. Until you are put into that situation, we don't know how we will actually react. Hopefully instinct will kick in, and we draw our handguns and make the right shot with the correct shot placement. It all happens very fast. I have never been attacked by a bear, but I did have a few hogs charge me, and I was able to kill them. Also the handgun was already in my hand, and not in the holster. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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I should have mentioned that where the above incident happened alot of the locals had been feeding bears in their back yard and alot of deer baiting goes on. The bears showed no fear of our scent at all. Probably associating human scent with food most days. This is a bad thing when wild animals don't fear mans scent; then you are dealing with a different critter. The last two deer shot in that area were found by bear before the hunters. The last one my brother-in-law shot with a bow. He climbed down out of his stand right at dusk and started tracking with a flashlight and had a pretty good blood trail. Knew that the deer wouldn't be far. Walked right up on two bear tracking the same deer. He hadn't went 60 yds from his stand. He called for backup and waited. We decided to wait until daylight after the last incident. Sure enough the deer was pretty tore up. We didn't get any meat out of this one. I have tracked a wounded bear with only a single shot Contender years ago when my other firearms had been stolen. I vowed when crawling through laurels following blood that this would never happen again. As soon as I got home I started looking for another sidearm that holds more than one. Redhawk, You are right about more people getting killed every year by black bear. I've been told that when a black bears attacks they intend to kill and a griz might not. Don't know about that though, and don't want to find out. God Bless, Louis | |||
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I have read this post with interest....my two cents worth: About a year ago I started to design a revolver specifically for use as a back up gun only. I chose a Ruger Redhawk in 44 Mag as the basis for the modifications that I have planned. A 3" barrel and shortened and modified grip frame....and non-adjustable sights should make this revolver reasonably light and compact, yet, shooting a 405 grain bullet at 1000+ fps should allow the gun to stop anything out to 25 yards or more.... or so our penetration tests with this load has shown us so far. I have fired this load in both 5.5" and 4" Redhawks, and it is a cream puff compared to lighter bullets at higher velocities, yet it shows excellent accuracy, and penetration... in like media exceeds a 45-70, 500 grain bullet at 1650. Within the yard ranges, and for the purpose of a last ditch back up handgun I think that this revolver/load combination should be the perfect balance of controllability, accuracy, comfort of carry, with enough power/penetration to stop LDG when they are too close for comfort. My second choice would be an OEM 4" Ruger Redhawk in 44 Mag or 45 LC shooting the same load....a 405 at 1000+. | |||
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A 45 Caliber handgun is my minimum with a heavy wide meplat hard cast _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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JWP; "heavy, wide meplat, hard cast".....roger that! If my butt was on the line, that is the only bullet I would trust! | |||
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Amen to that sentiment! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Thousands??? A bit excessive don't you think? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I was a National Match Course competitor and fired many thousands of rounds a year for most of my early life, and still consider myself (even at my age, and with poor eyesight) to be a fairly good shot. I rarely practice anymore, and my shooting endeavors are contained to testing, hunting, and occasional plinking. I believe that once "skill" is obtained, it can be maintained with very little practice....it becomes "second nature". I have never seen the "need" for much more than the 44 Mag....or, the 45 LC with modern loadings (which would be my choice in leiu of the 44 Mag). Within "normal" handgun ranges, both cartridges are more than up to any task at hand, are easily controlled , and are compact and light enough not to be a burden to carry. A larger or more powerful cartridge and handgun, for those who choose to pursue them are ok by me, but, they are not going to make up for poor gun handling skills. A properly constructed bullet, be it 44, 45, or a 500 put in the right place will kill...dead is dead. For me, the 44 mag is the largest/most powerful handgun I care to shoot...I am still pretty good with it...and with one in my hand, I fear nothing. | |||
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I disagree a little with ya there flat top.Shooting a revolver,especially a short barreled one with iron sights takes regular practice if any distance shots are to be taken.I may be the only one but if I take several months off I can't just pick up my 45 colt and shoot 1 1/2"groups at 50 or 75yards right off the bat.I think regular practice whether range time or dry fire exercises helps keep your skills honed alot better.And if my life depended on it as this post asks about regular practice would make me feel more comfortable than counting on second nature.I know the shots on a charging animal are close but hitting him/her and stopping him/her are two totally different things. "A bit excessive don't you think?"by JWP...and you ain't?HaHaHa "If you get to thinkin' you're a person of some influence,try orderin' someone else's dog around" unknown cowboy | |||
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Keeping ones skills honed VS needing thoussands of rounds just to become proffiecent with a big bore is not one and the same, don't you think? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Never been much on thinkin'.......  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Cottonstalk; Feel free to disagree...my opinions are just that...opinions, and, I can only relate to my shooting experiences and nobody elses. For "me", a handgun is a short range weapon. I dont shoot at 75 or 100 or more yards...I cant see that far, and sure as heck couldnt hit anything with iron sights at that distance. All my formal training and competition was at 50 yards max, and in my opinion that is the limit of handgun accuracy (mine, anyway)....any further and I use a rifle. After over 50 years of shooting (and most likely hundreds of thousands of rounds fired), shooting is second nature for me...no different than jumping in the car and driving up to 711 for a slurpy....not something you think about...just something you do. "Seasoned" shooters can pick up just about any weapon and shoot accurately without having to "think" about what they are doing...they just do it. If you feel the need to practice, by all means do so, but, dont be surprised if someday you go to the range and everything just comes together from the first shot to the last, and continues to do so for the rest of your shooting career..............With all the talk about long range handgunning on this forum, and with the topic of this thread being "back up", I wonder how many folks actually shoot thier handguns at realistic ranges that are implied by the topic? The last ditch use of a handgun in this type of situation (or a CCW situation) is normally in feet...not 10's of yards. I have a buddy who can really shoot a handgun at the longer ranges, but, cant hit a damn thing ten feet in front of him!!! His long range technique (a steady two handed hold, and precise sighting) does him no good when things get fast and furious up close. Just wondering....how many of you shoot your handguns up close, at moving targets, etc? | |||
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I shoot my handguns up close and at longer ranges. In fact, on Saturday I took a hog that was moving, offhand at about 20-25 yards. I have also taken hogs and deer at 80 + yards with a handgun. I have a good level of comfort with all of my handguns, especially the bigger calibers (.475 Linebaugh, .500 JRH, .500 Linebaugh, etc.) as I shoot them quite frequently. That said, I still need to practice. I am usually not too far off of my game if I haven't practiced in a while, but I am definitely better when I do get more trigger time. I don't think thousands of rounds are necessary, but a cylinder full or two doesn't hurt but actually helps. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Oh, and if you can hit your intended target offhand at 100 yards, 15 feet is a chip shot IMHO. Close is easy, long range is much harder. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Whitworth; Good for you...a well rounded program. I have my loads worked up for each of my handguns, and a bit before the hunting season, like you, I will shoot a cylinder full between 10 yards and 50 yards or so to check sighting, then, I am ready for the hunt. The longest shot I ever had on game with a handgun was about 60-65 yards...that was years ago...when I had good eyesight. Most of my shots are in the neighborhood of 20 to 40 yards. My buddy's problem is "deliberate sighting", which is great for the long shots, but, he is totally lost when trying to shoot instictively, and sometimes a "point and shoot" is all you get when the situation is close up. Being able to concentrate on a "pinpoint" on a moving target at ten feet and get off an accurate shot quickly...from the hip (when seconds and feet matter), is another facet of handgunning that most folks dont even think about, and, its not that hard to master. When I go to the range, it amazes me how many folks just shoot off the bench, and think they are good to go for whatever may come up. Being able to utilize a handgun in "all" situations that may arrise is important....shooting with the strong side, weak side (left or right handed), with or without sighting, and at differing distances out to ones abilities, is all part of learning to use the tool. Being able to drive a nail with a claw hammer, but not knowing how to pull a bent nail with the claw, makes the hammer 50% useless! I have nothing against folks that can shoot a handgun accurately at the longer ranges, and am amazed at what a modern handgun can do in thier hands...I cant, so for me, the handgun is nothing more than a short range weapon. For the purpose of this topic...I would much prefer to use a rifle (or a 12 ga shotgun) to stop a LDG attack, but, to have a handgun as a back up, and knowing how to use it would give me much piece of mind....and that counts for something. | |||
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A couple of buddies and I shot last weekend. One of them was Griz78 who also posts here sometimes. We took Pistols only (which still means revolvers only for me  ) and none of us had shot in a while. Long story short, after a while of semi-serious shooting, we began to goof off a bit. For the goofing off, we were shooting at a 55 gallon drum around 30 +/- yds away. We tried it rapid fire, with a pistol in either hand firing alternating shots, holding it sideways like the I can tell you that we all learned more during that goofing off than we did during our "good" practice runs. If ever I'm in a situation where I really NEED to stop a varmint (two legged or four) I certainly hope that I can remain composed and take a second more to make my first shot count, cause I learned that the vast majority of those other type of shots don't count for anything other than noise. For the direct topic asked about, I voted double action. Mainly because if the sh!t has hit the fan, you may not have full capability of either or both hands, and just pulling the trigger is the simplest/easiest way to go. Also, the question asked about a "backup" gun, and I've yet to see anyone who hunted with more than one long gun (rifle or shotgun) at a time, so IMO, a backup gun pretty much IS something that can be carried hands free so you can focus on your primary i.e. a pistol. That being said, any gun is just a tool. Your mind is your weapon. It is responsible for getting you out of bad situations, but, hopefully, it keeps you out of them in the first place.  | |||
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whenever hunting be it handgun, bow, or rifle, my latest acquisition, my ruger alaskan 454 will accompany me. impressed with this little pistol. easy to shoot DA, more accurate than expect at distance. | |||
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Daniel77; All excellent points! Trademark; At one time I had a Smith 29 with a 2.5" barrel. I sent it to a fella for some warranty work (barrel lands and grooves just didnt look right). Anyway, he asked if he could shoot the gun, and I told him by all means. He was keeping all the shots on a paper plate at 100 yards! He remarked about the accuracy of that snubbie.....just goes to show that short barrels can get the job done just as well as the long ones! | |||
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show me a guy that hasnt put at least a 1000 rounds through a truely big bore gun and ill show you a guy that hasnt mastered it. There may be one in a hundred that dont need it but when recoil gets that heavy it takes alot of work to actually overcome the mental part of it. Even myself, if i dont shoot them regularly i get very rusty. Sure i might be able to hit a deer at 5o yards but that sure isnt having my mind conditioned so well that hitting a charging bear is an automatic reflex.
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