A .357 with deep penetrating hard cast bullets would be the minimum I would suggest and a good .500 linebaugh conversion on a redhawk as the top of the line.
Irregardless of what cartridge you opt for, placement will always be the key. The S&W 329 is a very packable tool. Use a good hardcast bullet (245-280) and it will do its job.
It is the best carrying .44 out there.
There is a large increase in weight with anything bigger.

Reading this post I'm curious; does barrel lemgth of a revolver have the same impact to the FPS of a given load as does the length of a rifle barrel??

Regards,
Craig Nolan

quote:

Originally posted by Craig Nolan:
Reading this post I'm curious; does barrel lemgth of a revolver have the same impact to the FPS of a given load as does the length of a rifle barrel??

Regards,
Craig Nolan

Yes shorter barrels less fps.

A Ruger RH or BH 45 long colt with grizzly or buffalo bore ammo wil out perform some 44 mag ammo .Garrett has some great 44 mag ammo.

One needs to realize if you are charged by a bear you will most likely have only a few seconds at best to get off one shot with a handgun. What matters is you hit what you are aiming at with the first shot and the bullet has the ability to stop or slow down the charge. If you miss with the first shot there is no way in heck you will have time for a second aimed shot before the bear is on you. Don't believe it? Try shooting at one target at the range at 15 yards away and then trying to hit a different target within 2 seconds.
I never been charged by a bear in Alaska and I personally give a irritated cow moose more respect. That being said for me I find the S&W 500 with its 4 inch barrel the handgun for me to carry when I am off in the boonies. I tried em all. From the S&W 329 to the Ruger 44 and 454, FA 454, and finally settled on the 4in 500.
Like anything else, your mileage may vary and it is up to you to determine what is best for your situation.

I have a 4" 500 S&W. It's actually a 3" bbl with 1" of compensator. The only factory ammo I've shot is the Magtech 400 JSP stuff. The box says 1600 fps, but they only do just over 1200 from my short barrel. It really isn't that bad to shoot.

I think the single action guns are probably much stronger than the double actions. You may never have to shoot it one handed and double action, but it would be tremedously easier to shoot the double action one handed than the single, especially if you were down on the ground or up a tree.

We tried shooting the 500 double action, fairly fast, 2 handed at a target about 12 yards away and could keep all 5 on the 8x11" target.

The big Smith is noticably heavier than my 4 5/8 Stainless 45 Black hawk. I can load some hard cast 350's around 1100fps in it.
Another thing, what ever it is, it should be Stainless.
FWIW.

quote:

Originally posted by Craig Nolan:
Reading this post I'm curious; does barrel lemgth of a revolver have the same impact to the FPS of a given load as does the length of a rifle barrel??

Regards,
Craig Nolan

After living and hunting in Alaska for 13 years, here is my 2 cents worth. I never had to shoot a bear with a handgun. As I didn't use a guide that would also have a firearm I normally hunted with a 416 Rem Mag loaded with 350 grain Barnes x bullets. No problem at all with bears. When I would go fishing, my wife and kids would normally be there and with folks scattered down the river, a shotgun is no good. The handgun I carried was a 445 Supermag with heavy cast bullets. This was before the 480 Ruger days which is my favorite handgun out of all the many I have owned. If we were in Brown bear country, the 416 or my 35 Whelen always went along!!! Black bears, the handguns are fine. When you are fishing, the big ones will normally leave you alone. Black bears will usually be the problem. Also Brown bear season will not be open so you had better have scars on you before you shoot him. If I lived there now, my handgun for everything would be the 480 Ruger. Most of the former posts explain why, controlability,heavy bullet at good velocities. I use a 370 cast bullet at near 1400 fps. and it will penetrate and kill like crazy. The round is very accurate, easy to load for, and easy to learn to shoot well. I load a 400 grain cast bullet down to around 900 fps with Unique powder for practice. Hodgdon H110 for the serious loads. It is a great caliber. I also hope that none of you have to rely on anything to keep a mad bear off of you or a loved one.

Good shooting,
Dave Mace

Sharps made the west safe for Winchester!

Chet and Paul, I have one of the Wolverine conversions from Wildwest Guns. Yes they are expensive but their work is very good. I love the pistol. The trigger would make S&W proud. The moon clips really make the difference. It is easy to change loads as conditions change and much easier and more convenient to carry extra ammo.

I too agree with Paul, the 480 is a real winner and much easier to handle. John Taffin used a 475 loaded to 480 levels to take an American Bison at 60 yards. He said it went through both shoulders and kept going. What else do you need? Great penetration! It was a 410 grain hard cast bullet at 1000 fps. I sleep much better at night in a tent with that 480 beside me. I also put tritium sights on it. Those three green dots are really comforting when something rubs against the tent. Jim

I have a 454 Super Alaskan -- it's actually pretty pleasant to shoot. I had Gemini customs do an action job on it.

Glock 20 10mm- 16 rounds of .41 mag level power, fast accurate, dependable, impervious to all weather.

KWard,

That is actually what I currently have (Glock 10mm). I really enjoy the pistol, it is relatively light, has a high capacity and is a lot faster to reload than a revolver. I have, however, been wondering if the 10mm round is adequate for bear protection?

Chet

Chet, I will give you my thoughts< 3 years ago I went to the John Leinbaugh Big Bore seminar in Cody Wyoming, many big name gunsmiths were there such as hamilton bowen. I went with the idea of building a big bore custom revolver to replace the .44 mag I usually carried. They had a charging bear simulator that was real interesting< they had a number of experts present for discussion of handgun related topics, some of my take aways from the conversation were very seldom does a singular hit from any handgun stop a charging bear,multiply hits are best. Then out to the range and the charging bear whcih covered something like 50 ft in a few seconds and had an 8" target ( the head). My results were as follows: .500 S&W 1 shot before the target was on top of me, same witha .474 linebaugh. 3 hits with a .44mag, 5 hits with .357, and 8 hits with the Glock. John and Hamilton were very honest in letting us know the recoil was so severe that controlled double action rapid firing was not likely. Hence my decision to carry my Glock. I still love my revolvers especially my .480 Ruger and I hunt deer with them, but when carrying a back up handgun it is my Glock......my reasons

A 10mm is not equal to a 41 mag, just similar bullet diameter. The 10mm compares favorably with heavy 357 magnum loads in terms of power. At any rate, I would feel adequately armed with a 10mm if we are talking about black bear. If the game is brown bear, I would rather have 3 well placed bullets from a 44 mag than 8 from a 10mm. JMO

I will have to agree that the 10mm isn't on the same level as the 41 mag but loaded with the 200gr cast bullets pushing 1200fps they do real well.

When using corbon hunting loads, 10mm falls between 357 and 41 mags, but closer to the 357. The original loading for 10mm and 41 mag put them pretty close to each other which is why most folks will say they are equivalent. The original 10mm load as developed to mimic the ballistics of the 41 mag police loads. After testing, the FBI reduced the loads on the 10mm. Most personal defense rounds are loaded close to the FBI specs.

Personally, for bears, I would be much happier with a 44 or better. I think a 4" bbl 480 ruger would be a good choice, followed by any of the super magnums (454, 460 and 500 S&W, Linebaughs, etc.) then the venerable 44.

John

Double Tap ammo has a couple of 10mm loads that move the 10 mm much closer to .41 mag levels than .357. They hav a 200 grain WFN load and a 230 grain WFN that should prove effective.

Dang, where did this old post come from??

I copied this from The American Big Game Forum.My opinion if you are going to pack a Revolver as your main defense in bear Country,you had damn well be proficient with it. Ruth surprised the bear and her three cubs when she attacked. The bear first bit Ruth in the face, breaking his jaw in serveral places. Ruth, a retired police officer, grabbed a pistol he was carrying, fired three shots and killed the bear. Ruth sustained bite wounds, a punctured lung and other injuries in the attack. Ruth 51, had to described his ordeal on paper because he could not talk.



The encounter happened near Clark, Wyo., while Ruth and another man came across the bears in foothills outside the small town north of Cody. Wyoming game officials captured the cubs shortly after the incident.

Jerry Ruth saw the grizzly for just a fraction of a second before it was on him.

Within seconds, the 275-pound animal had crushed the Wyoming man's jaw when it bit him in the face, fractured his rib and punctured his lung and left deep bite wounds in his calf and scratches across his back.

After the attack, the bear left him for her three cubs that Ruth saw for the first time as he lay bleeding on the dirt. When it reached the cubs about 15 yards away, the bear turned toward him again, "squaring off" as if to charge, Ruth recalled Friday.

Ruth grabbed for the .41-caliber magnum revolver he was carrying in a hip holster and relied on his training and experience as a police officer to save his life. He fired three times, saving three bullets in case his first shots failed.

But the bear dropped and didn't move, ending the furious encounter as swiftly as it started.

"My training as a cop (is) that when deadly force is used against you, you use deadly force to repel the deadly force," Ruth said.

Ruth, 51, remains at St. Vincent Healthcare in Billings since the attack Sunday near his home in Clark, Wyo., a small town north of Cody near the Montana state line. Because his jaw is wired shut to heal the multiple fractures, Ruth used a pencil and notebook on Friday to describe his encounter with the bear. His wife, Cindy, has stayed near him as doctors continue to treat him.

One of his treating physicians, Dr. Jeff Rentz, said Ruth's injuries were very serious. The bear bite crushed his jaw on the left side in several places and broke the right side of the bone. The jaw has been wired shut and plates fastened to the bone to hold it while it heals, he said.

Rentz said it appears that the bear hit Ruth in the back, causing the fractured rib and punctured lung. Two of the bite marks in Ruth's calf were large enough to insert a thumb, Rentz said.

"We were concerned about his survival when he got here," the doctor said.

Ruth will require at least one more surgery, and his doctors said it was still unclear when he might be able to return home. Dr. Andy Boyce, an oral surgeon who worked on Ruth, said the jaw will have to remain wired for about six more weeks.

Cindy and Jerry Ruth moved to Wyoming last year after Ruth retired from the Baltimore County Police Department in Maryland after a 28-year career as an officer. They bought property in Clark about a decade ago after falling in love with the area while on vacation, Cindy Ruth said. Her husband spent a month every summer working on their retirement home, she said.

On Sunday, Jerry Ruth and a friend took their four-wheelers for a ride onto an adjacent ranch to look for a herd of elk that Cindy had seen the day before. The two men were hoping to catch a glimpse of the elk, and maybe find a few antler sheds.

They were about a mile from Ruth's house when the men parked the four-wheelers and began walking into a small valley toward a pond through sage brush. Ruth's friend was ahead of him, Ruth said, and the men were 25 to 75 yards apart. Some of the sage brush was as tall as a man.

Ruth said he caught only a glimpse of the bear before the attack.

"Like a flash the bear came out from under some sage brush and she was on me," Ruth wrote. "Grabbed my lower face in her jaw and I could hear the bones breaking."

Ruth said thoughts of his family came to his mind as the bear attacked. The couple has three adult children.

"I next became aware that she was off of me," Ruth wrote. "I was on the ground. She was squaring off to take another charge. It was at this time that (I saw) she had three cubs."

After the initial attack, Ruth said, he was able to grab his pistol and fire three times at the bear, and the bear dropped dead. Ruth began calling for help, and his friend arrived within moments.

The men called Ruth's wife on a cell phone so she could call 911 and meet them with a vehicle. They were only about a mile and a half from the Ruth's house, and they began making their way back on the four-wheelers as Ruth held on to his friend.

Cindy Ruth said was shocked at her husband's injuries.

"I just started praying," she said. "I didn't know how he was going to survive it. It was the scariest thing I've ever seen."

With the help of emergency medical crews, Jerry Ruth got to the hospital in Powell and then was flown to the hospital in Billings. Rentz said a team of St. Vincent physicians took him immediately into surgery.

Ruth said he carries his revolver with him anytime he goes into the backcountry around his house. The habit probably saved her husband's life, Cindy Ruth said. In such a sudden attack, she said, bear spray probably would not have been effective against the mother bear.

"I think the only way we are not at a funeral right now is because he had his gun," she said.

Ruth said he regrets having to shoot the bear, and suggests that people be aware of all wildlife when they venture out.

"I feel bad for killing the bear," he wrote. "I think it was just a matter of time (before) this bear would have gone after someone else."

Orphaned grizzly bear cubs on way to Tennessee after short stay in Billings
Three orphaned grizzly bear cubs were loaded into a trailer at ZooMontana in Billings this morning for a two-day trip to Tennessee.

The cubs - two males and a female - were brought to the Billings zoo on Wednesday by officials with the Wyoming Game and Fish Department after their mother was killed Sunday in Northern Wyoming. The bear was killed by Jerry Ruth, who was mauled before he was able to shoot the bear. Ruth is being treated for his injuries at St. Vincent Healthcare in Billings.



mn better be proficient with it.

You need to be proficient with whatever firearm you choose to carry, be it a revolver, shotgun, a rifle, or a howitzer. I have never been attacked by a bear, but I know that jwp475 has a griz come in on a moose kill they were skinning, and it was the .475 Lineaugh he was carrying on his hip that stopped the charge and not the .338 win mag his hunting buddy was carrying. The penetration of a heavy for caliber, flat-nose hardcast bullet is plenty adequate on thicker skinned animals than bear, so I would think that a larger diameter would work in your favor. JMHO.

One of the short barreled .500 S&@, once you get rid of the Hillary hole, are great packing guns. 2-4" barrel, and, if you can't find commercial ammo that isn't loaded with high recoil powder, JRH Advanced Gunsmithing might still have some Buffalobore loaded, .500JRH ammo that recoils like a .44, but gives you the penetration, of about a .475 Linebaugh, using 440 and 425 grain .500 bullets, at 950 and 1350 fps respectively. Here's one of Safarikids' guns I've shot. Works great. And, after the diet, it doesn't weigh much.


The heavy weight of the bullets allows pretty much complete powder burning, and, near full velocity in a 2" barrel.

Sorry for resurecting an old post but I found it interesting and wanted to comment on the 10MM. I agree 100% that there are better stoppers but with the Double Tap 200gr Hardcast or handloaded hardcast for that matter it would improve the performance considerbly.
If I were in the situation where I would need a bear protection pistol I would either carry my Ruger Bisley in 45LC or my newly aquired 480 Ruger. I think either one would work well.

Palladin, after reading the rafts of shit spun by people who've (1) never hunted big bears and (2) never even BEEN to Alaska, I had to laugh at the guys pushing the automatics. Folks that live there or have been there know that Alaska is one brutal and unforgiving place. The LAST thing you want for ANYTHING is something that's supposed to be "automatic". A slippery rock, a talus, or even a damned juniper can put you and your gun in the dirt or water. The wheel gun, the pump gun and the bolt action should be limiting factors for any pistol. Since you're likely to get only one shot anyway, do you REALLY want to take the chance that you richocheted off the skull and missed the brain? The shock of the .480, or .500 MAY give you that extra second you need.

When I'm out of the tent, I've got a long gun nearby, but that tent can lead to horrific dreams. I've BEEN in a tent with the only rifles being sheep guns (.270 and 7mm mag). I can tell you that jimmying around inside a tent with a long gun is playing with your ass. The last trip I was on, I had a .454 Casull in a JRH Streethawk configuration (now Ruger sells it as the Alaskan I think). My buddy had a short barrelled S&W 500 Mag. We never had a bear around the tents (we did have wolves bumping the anchor ropes one night) but it sure was comforting psychologically to have these hand cannons available inside the sleeping bags as we didn't want to be bear burritos. As the old story guys about the African PH who was asked why he carried a .600 Nitro, he replied, "Cause they don't make a .700."

Here's an example of the gun that was the Alaskan before there was an Alaskan. Jack put this on his website, it was hit over 50 times by Ruger, and, Viola, the Alaskan JRH was born:

One of the reasons I do not like a semi auto for animal protection, is that if the animal has made contact with you before you know it there is a good chance that you will get only one shot and then have a malfunction.

In Contact Defense Situations with man or beast, this can be a problem.

Too much recoil as I have stated in previous posts, and others in this post, can be a negative as well.

Everything considered, recoil, power, speed of fire, reliability, carry ability, availibility and being able to find factory ammo, and speed of reloading, @ a 4" S&W 44 Mag is hard to beat.

I look at this as more of a discussion of the merits of the 10mm rather than the platform from which it is launched.

George, I've spent some time in bear country, and I know what you mean, and they don't even have to make an appearance to affect you.

Remember, there are two kinds of automatics: those that jam, and those that will jam. Now, before the flaming begins, keep in mind that I own, carry and love semi-autos, but I'll take a wheelgun for bears, thank you very much.

The main object is to put a bullet where it needs to be to kill it quickly. I own 500s 475s and 454s and one would probably be on my hip in bear country but for 98percent of the people a 44 mag or 45 colt loaded with a heavy hard cast bullet (something around 300 grain with a good metplat) at about 1100 fps would be ideal. Still fairly mild in recoil and about anyone can master loads like that and they do a hell of a good job of penetrating. Any more gun then that and youd best be willing to put a few thousand rounds down range mastering the recoil.that aint no place for braggards or someone that thinks he has a gun mastered its for someone that is so intimate with his gun that the grip frame has wore groves in his hands.

LOL Whitworth, I'm like you with my auto's. I just think they're more for two-legged varmints as you do.

Lloyd, you're quite correct and I know you are, but (between us guys) SOME people shouldn't be out there with bears OR handguns. I suppose it's either generational or how I was raised, but if a person is going to play hardball, he should be expected to know how to catch one. Like most of you, I hear the braggers and boasters who cringe when I offer to let them shoot the big guns. It just pisses me off when they excuse their actions with, "I don't need anything like that. My .38 is more than enough." I'm an Elmer Keith fan and don't think there's such a thing as "too much gun" when you chance running into a Timothy Treadwell consumer.

Do you mean "Bear Scat" Treadwell?

I shot a .460 XVR at the range on Friday (indoor), and the place came to a standstill every time I touched it off. Didn't see anyone running up to me wanting to shoot it, LOL!

Did you shoot it one handed? Like you might have to if up close and personal with a pissed off bear?

Don't get me wrong, I think bigger is better when it comes to critters who would like to eat me. But not everyone is a ham-fisted Paul Bunyan type able to control the recoil of many of those hand cannons and fire the remaining rounds to stop the attack.

A man's got to know his limitations. What's good for George might not be the best for everyone else.

That .460 wouldn't serve as a backup or protection revolver -- barrel's too long. Nor would I use my .475 as it is set up as a primary hunting tool. I have shot my .475 one handed out of necessity, and it is controllable for me, but not easy. My .44s on the other hand are for backup and I can shoot them one handed way more easily. Point well taken.

Dave, that's exactly my point. One SHOULD know his limitations and if you shouldn't take a knife to a gunfight. If the maximum gun you can comfortably handle isn't big enough to do the job, you've got a few choices. Have your partner who can, cover you, don't go, or just hope for the best.

Actually, the only drawback for the 460XVR is the lenght of the barrel. As Whitworth says, it's not INTENDED to be a backup, but rather a primary firearm.

Whitworth, if you ever get the chance to show off the 460, do what I do with all my classes. Take the local newspaper and open it up. Fold it in 6 inch turn and wrap it around the cylinder and forcing cone. Tape it with masking tape. Then touch her off. AMAZING what happens. It'll convince anyone not to shoot it off the hood of their car.

We were talking to another hunter from CA while on a Colorado big game hunt & he told us what happened to a friend of his who drove into town w/o a windshield in his truck.His friend said he spotted a coyote off in the brush on a hillside so he got out his bolt action 50bmg caliber rifle to take a shot off of his truck hood but when he pulled the trigger it blew out his windshield and he missed the yote.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
Actually, the only drawback for the 460XVR is the lenght of the barrel. As Whitworth says, it's not INTENDED to be a backup, but rather a primary firearm.

I'm almost positive that I've seen short-barreled 460S&W's marketed in both yellow and orange plastic-boxed survival kits.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
One of the reasons I do not like a semi auto for animal protection, is that if the animal has made contact with you before you know it there is a good chance that you will get only one shot and then have a malfunction.

In Contact Defense Situations with man or beast, this can be a problem.

Too much recoil as I have stated in previous posts, and others in this post, can be a negative as well.

Everything considered, recoil, power, speed of fire, reliability, carry ability, availibility and being able to find factory ammo, and speed of reloading, @ a 4" S&W 44 Mag is hard to beat.

What we must come to terms with considering this question is outlined very well by NE450 above.

I won't go all the way with NE 450 on the semi auto deal, as I would not be at odds with a 45 acp 1911 of some sort.

But when it comes to Everything Considered he hits the nail on the head! Recoil, power, speed of fire, reliability, carry ability. This sounds to me like a "Fighting Handgun". This is the mindset one must take for this situation. A 44 is fine, just as good as one can get. For me I decided many years ago if I had a 45 I really didn't need a 44. So I have gone the way of the 45 Colt. A good 4" MT Revolver has been my friend for many years, I have shot bear, boars, and cougar with it. It, like everything man made can malfunction too. In the last few years, actually several, I have taken to carrying a little 5 shot 45 Colt Taurus 2 inch UltraLite! It has been a friend for many a damn mile too! Even had in in Zimbabwe a couple of times, and South Africa several trips. A friend in the field and in downtown Pretoria!

While it might not drive 250s much past 750 fps or so, it still drills a big 45 caliber hole to around 30 inches or so in animal flesh, I think a few of those will do the job for me.

Michael

A 1911 in 45 ACP is my favorite handgun.

I am wearing one now, and carry one most times in Urban environments.

If, and I have, was goiong to hunt bear with a handgun I would use my 475 FA...

But in the Woods I carry a S&W 44 Mag for protection.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
In the last few years, actually several, I have taken to carrying a little 5 shot 45 Colt Taurus 2 inch UltraLite! It has been a friend for many a damn mile too!

Similar to this titanium Taurus 45 Colt?

Those hollowpoints are not meant for bear but 2-legged hombres.

NE450

If I am on the streets I am carrying a 1911 45 acp--these days a Kimber Ultra, short and light.

Go to the bush I normally strap on that little Taurus 45 Colt.

Yes, Dave, near your titanium but mine are Ultralites. I will take some photos in the morning and get them posted, along with some of my other 45 Colts.

Not a thing in the world wrong with 44s, just I decided one or the other and not both, and went with 45 Colt. I keep one Dillon set up in 45 acp permanently and another set up in 45 Colt permanently.

I will try and get some photos up tomorrow.
In the meantime take a gander.

One more time. The 500 S&W with a short barrel, and .500JRH ammo gives you 4-6 feet of bison, steer, or buffalo, with the same recoil as a 44, when you figure in the slight added gun weight.

You could also put .480 ammo in a .475 Linebaugh, if you can't handle the factory .475 loads recoil.

Michael

Nice handguns, Very Nice Ivory grips.

Nothing wrong with a 45 Colt or even a 41 Mag for Bear Protection.

I have a good friend that likes SAA's in 45 Colt. He uses a S&W Mountain Gun for a woods carry gun, instead of a 44 Mag so he only has to reload for one calibre.

In fact he sold me his 44 Mag Mountain Gun.

Both of us are happy.

GS

You make a good point. If you have one of the "Super Revolvers" [454 type recoil and up} you can always carry lighter kicking loads for protection.

One "trip" I was on involved going to a shooting school and then on to a bear hunt.

I was on the road for over 2 months.

I carried some 1911's in 45 ACP for urban and school use, and I carried my 475 FA to black bear hunt with.

I wore the 475 and a 1911 all the time when in the woods.

Around camp and traveling to the bear blind I carried Buffalo Bore's 420gr "light load", 892fps in my gun. I did kill a turkey with it in Texas and it worked great.

When I got in the blind I put in Hornaday 400gr XTP's. They killed the bear just fine.

George I in no way said the 10MM was the best choice as a bear defense cartridge. I have never been in big bear country and do not claim that I know more than those that have been and live there. For me and the places I have lived and currently live a super magnum is not necessary as we don't have the big bears. The nastiest thing I have to worry about presently living in southern Nevada is rattle snakes and mtn lions. A .357 is an ideal packing piece around here as you can carry snake shot for the rattlers, and 125gr or 158gr for cougar or 2 legged critters. The 10MM works great for the same and it's what I have been carrying since I bought it. I have a Ruger 7 1/2" Blackhawk and 5 1/2" Bisley both in 45 Colt and have carried them both as well. Now if I were to be up in big bear country like the original post I think I would be carrying my newly aquired .480 Ruger once I was comfortable and confident with my ability to shoot it.