Hello everyone. I just got a .45-70 12" hunter barrel for my T/C contneder. I'm wondering if anyone out there has one or any experience with one. I bought it with the hopes of having an honest 100yd elk pistol. I feel like the factory loads I've tried fall way short of my expectations. I've only tried the Remington 300gr, 405gr, and the Federal 300gr. The Federal load shoots pretty well, 2" at 100yds. I'll use this for bear hunting until I can work up a handload. I am just wondering what load data to start with. The Lyman 47 manual lists 45-70 loads for the Contender, but they are the same as the trapdoor loads. Can I safely use the loads for the lever actions in a Contneder? I can out perform the .45-70 trapdoor loads with my 10" .44mag barrel. I'd love to hear everyone's opinions on this thanks.

You can't shoot 4-500 grain .458" bullets out of your 44 mag like a Trapdoor Springfield can.

Do you have a Hornady or Sierra bookl? They both have lots of Contender level loads. It's been my experiance with the 45-70 T/C combo, that most shooters have more than enough fun, before they run out of room on the load chart.

Factory ammo is going to be lower power, low pressure stuff made for longer barrels. You won't get steller results in that stubby gun.

[ 08-03-2003, 04:08: Message edited by: cas ]

I had a super 16 contender a few years ago. the thing was scary to shoot with heavy handloads (405 grain rem. 27 grains 2400, or 39 grains imr4198) DON"T use my loads-reduce, then work up!!
It pulled both barrel lugs out, and the fore arm came off. I sent it back to the factory. they welded the lugs back in, and put a compensator on it, free of charge.
Then one day I was firing it, and the barrel dropped down. I thought the gun came open. it was still locked, but the grip screw- a 1/4-20 capscrew, broke. I sold it then.

I also have a 12" hunter bbl in 45-70. I loaded mine a bit on the heavy side, I won't list loads, but the 400gn barnes solids definatly got your attension and the 500JSP's felt like it would rattle your fillings loose. I couldn't keep a scope mount on it. I would shoot for a 350 or 405gn cast around 1400-1500.

I have a 45/70 Contender barrel it's 16" long and has a muzzel brake. I shot full house loads out it and broke my action had to send it back for repare. There was no charge. Most of the time when I shoot it I shoot 300gr loads at 1450fps.

Generally speaking you should use Trapdoor level loads in loading the Contender .45-70. However, with care you can push 300 to 2000 fps, 405 to 1800, and 500 to 1500+. This out of a 24" but compare to factory 300s doing 1800 fps. I doubt you can honestly match .45-70 trapdoor loads in your .44 Mag, I've tried in mine (10 and 21" barrels) and can't.

Those I know who have actually used the gun on elk were VERY pleased with performance. This was with 14" barrels. In their opinion it beat the .44 Mag Garrett loads all hollow.

Good hunting!

I had an unported .45-70 and tried a few 400 Speers in front of 50 or 56(?? - can't remember which) grains of H4895. Yooouch. Tough on the wrists.
May try again someday with a ported barrel.

My understanding is that the 400 Speers will expand to .80 or better and penetrate fairly well. Or so I have been told by a couple of people who have taken elk with that bullet.

Thanks for all the help everyone. It sounds like this round can be extremely potent, and a little dangerous if I get to ambitious with my loads. I probably wasn't fair when I said that my .44mag could beat the .45-70 loads. My 300gr XTPs are at about 1275fps in my .44. I only guessed that the 300gr factory loads for the .45-70 would around 1300fps from the short barrel. I'm sure that if I checked the velocity, it would be better than that. And I didn't factor in for the heavier bullets that can be used in the .45-70. So, I'd like to retract my former statement about beating the .45-70 with a .44mag. Are there any thoughts on using hard cast bullets instead of jacketed? I didn't think there would be much differance in terminal performance, since I probably won't get much expansion with jacketed bullets at the low velocities. I'm on a tight budget, so less expensive cast bullets sounded good to me.

I have a 14" ssk in 45-70, and I get between 1650-1700fsp with most of the 300's. The load I use is listed as max, so work up. 54.0gr of H-322 sierra 300gr HP CCI large rifle primers star line brass. I think a good cast 300 could do a bit more, but I have not attempedt to go any hotter. Why would I? I think the 300gr nosler partition may be a good load for heavy up to elk game. The 350's will act like a solid at TC speeds, the 400gr speer is a great bullet, it will take a bit to get use to it. It will expand nicely out to about 75yds in my shooting, limmited only to deer in my actual shooting. So with deer my main game for now, the 300's will do all I want, and I can shoot a lot more of them than the 400's. Have fun, and do take the time to work up to full power loads. This combo can and will cause you to develop bad shooting habbits if you go at it too fast.

I've got your exact barrel. You cannot use lever-action load data--it's too hot. The lever can be loaded to 40,000 CUP, the Contender should not exceed 28,000 CUP, while factory 45-70 is under 25,000 CUP.

Efficiency of the 45-70 sucks with 300 grain bullets. You can match or even beat it with the .44 and use a lot less powder in the process. I'd suggest sticking with bullets of 400 grains or more.

I shot 500 grain jacketed bullets at 1350, and could probably get cast ones up to 1500. Recoil is harsh at 76 lbs.ft. That's the same as a fast-pitch baseball at about 80 MPH. The geometry of the Contender puts it all in the palm, too. My buddy is the most recoil resistant person I know and after 19 rounds his hand was shaking uncontrollably and his palm was a slight shade of blue. But it produced over 2000 lbs.ft. of energy which is about as much as can be obtained from the Contender and plenty for North American game. Cast LBT-style 500's would probably be the perfect match for this configuration.

So, is the general opinion that pretty much any load within the SAAMI pressure limit of 28,000cup safe in the Contender? This would give room to improve on the Trapdoor loads. I'll probably max out on recoil before I reach full pressure loads. With the factory Federal 300gr loads, recoil is stout, but with the muzzle brake and a good shooting glove it isn't unpleasant. I'd just like to get a load that's as powerful as I can shoot accurately without being afraid to pull the trigger.
Are the LBT hard cast bullets about the best cast bullets out there? None of the gunshops in the area stock them, and I just want to be sure that they are worth ordering. I really appreciate everyone's help so far these forums are a great resource.

So, is the general opinion that pretty much any load within the SAAMI pressure limit of 28,000cup safe in the Contender?

I'd say so, but with large bullets at max velocities the recoil is likely to be so sharp that you'll think the gun is going to come apart. There could be something to this; the gun will be under a lot of load. But it will be hard to put enough rounds through it (brake or no brake, glove or no glove) to impose damage. Even without max loads the trapdoor loads can be improved upon.

I'll probably max out on recoil before I reach full pressure loads. With the factory Federal 300gr loads, recoil is stout, but with the muzzle brake and a good shooting glove it isn't unpleasant.

Believe me--the factory 300's are nothing. I can literally shoot them all day. No bullshit. But 10 or 20 max loads with 500 grain jacketed or cast bullets is enough for a week. If you think the recoil is stout from a factory 300, chances are you will max out on recoil way before you hit max loads (WITH HEAVY BULLETS ONLY--you could max the pressure with a 300 before maxing recoil because the cartridge is so inefficient with light bullets.)

Are the LBT hard cast bullets about the best cast bullets out there?

LBT is the design, not the maker. Veral Smith is the guy that came up with the design and he makes moulds for them. You can also get moulds from Ballisticast that copy his designs. The design is very good in terms of accuracy and penetration. In my experience, the makers that provide them are serious about what they are doing and the end product is typically exceptional. The combination of good bullet design and good manufacturing techniques make them the best bullets out there.

If you want better-than-average bullets that are functional but may not be perfect, try Cast Performance. They get them to you quickly (inside of two weeks) at a fair price, but they are not custom sized and are only water dropped.

If you want them to be top notch, custom sized, heat treated, a good price and you are willing to wait six months, try Beartooth.

None of the gunshops in the area stock them, and I just want to be sure that they are worth ordering.

Chances are, no gun shop will have them. But they are worth ordering; fantastic penetration, accuracy as good as jacketed (sometimes better, if they are properly fitted), and better velocity than jacketed because they impart less friction in the bore. Once you try them, you won't want anything else.

[ 08-08-2003, 08:51: Message edited by: liljohn ]

Thanks for all of the info liljohn. Loading for the .45-70 sounds like it will be a lot different than loading for my 30-30 Contender barrel. Has it been your experience that a steady diet of moderate pressure loads in the 45-70 will put a lot of unnecessary stress on the frame and barrel? Also, has this round proven to be pretty hard on your scopes? I have a T/C 2.5X illuminated reticle scope in Burris rings mounted on this barrel. I would hate to have the scope beaten to pieces and go to waste. I thought about puting this scope on my .30-30 and just getting the strongest scope I can afford for the .45-70.

I have the TC "recoil proof" 2.5x7 Illuminated recticle scope. It started on my 12" 45-70 hunter bbl. The recticle is now abit tilted. In all fairness, I was useing over pressure loads at the time. I suppose I could send it back, but It probably happened from the hot loads.

Is your scope still grouping and tracking well? Or has the accuracy started to fall off? I didn't think it would be much of a problem. From what I've been told, T/C scopes can take a lot of abuse. But for the most part, these were the opinions of people who have never owned one.
Now I just have to wait for my .45-70 dies to get here. I ordered a set of Lee dies with the Factory Crimp die. I had a set for my .444 Marlin and they worked perfectly. Once the dies get here I'll start working on a load with Alliant Re 7 and 400gr cast bullets.

My 45-70 isn't, and has never been, scoped. If I were to scope it, I'd probably use one of my Leupolds. I use Leupolds on my FA 454, my S&W 500, and a variety of other large calibers. I've never, ever had a problem with any of them, and they are all fixed power.

I've got a Burris 2x7 that has had problems under heavy recoil. It's got he "posi-lock" system that doesn't positively lock. It was sent back to the factory, where they took care of the problem. I now restrict it's use to lesser recoiling calibers and have not had a problem since.

But that's as much as I can say about this issue. I would assume that any good scope with a lifetime guarantee would be OK, unless the manufacturer waves you off. I wouldn't be willing to try it unless the scope were guaranteed for life, only because I'm too tight and wouldn't want to have to trash the scope.

I'll tell you this, though--a scope and mount will reduce the felt recoil. When I shoot my FA 454 with 370's @ 1550 and iron sights, a box of 50 will tire me out. When I put the scope on it, I could shoot them all day. That extra few ounces takes the edge off some of these loads. However, if you push a 500 grain cast at 1500 using your 12" hunter, it may not make a difference at all. It's still going to beat the crap out of you.

The scope still works fine, the recticle is just tilted a bit is all.

I have a supper16 without the brk. I have shot some very hot loads without any prob at all. I would just use common sence. I have shot 500gr for years, I did have one prob with the dove tale pulling out of the barrel. T/C was more than happy to fix this by using two and giving me a new stock. The gun will beat you up some, depends on your limits. But, I must say it is one of the finest 100yard sledge hammers you can get. Esp for the $$$

Happy Hunting

12.9

I shoot a 15" Contender in .45-70. I have had excellent results with the Barnes 300 gr. X bullet. Over a near listed (Hornady manual, for the Contender .45-70)) maximum load of H322 I am getting 1.5" 3 shot groups at 100 yards and a measured velocity of 1890 fps. I have been shooting this load for over 10 years and there have been no ill affect on my pistol. The same load behind a 300 gr. Sierra or Hornady JHP gives 1790 fps. Since no load data existed at the time for the X bullet in the Contender, I stuck with the Hornady data and worked up carefully. It shows no adverse signs of pressure and the cases have been loaded 8 or 9 times over the last 10 years. Everything is still tight as a tick and it still groups 1.5" at 100 yards, so I don't think I am pushing anything too hard. While Barnes says you need a .050" jump to lands, I cannot do this in my pistol, the lands are right near the mouth of the case so my jump is only .010", which is very close for the X bullet, but as I said, all is well in mine.
I have shot over two dozen deer ranging from 90 to 200 pounds and all but one have dropped in their tracks with mostly heart/lung/shoulder shots. I have also shot them face on in the brisket area and the bullet traveled the full length of the body and still exited. I have yet to recover a bullet fired at game. My recovered test bullets show the impact velocity needed to open the X bullet 100% of the time is 1600 fps (Barnes list the 300 .458 bullet as needing 1500 fps), and that velocity is not reached until 175 yards if your MV is like mine, 1890 fps. I would have no problem using this load on any none dangerous North American animal.

Just as a comparison....

I am shooting a 405 Winchester out of a Competitor pistol (bottom left pic) with various bullet weights.

210 JSP Remiington - 2300+ fps
300 JSP Hornady - 2100+ fps

So far i have had a Burris 1.5x and a Leupold 4x on it and neither have suffered.

I have also tried the 265 gas checked bullets from Cast Performance and True Shot (Oregon Trail) and both have performed well. Recoil with the 170 is mild, recoil with the 210's is brisk and 50 rounds or so is my limit. The 265's & 300's are SERIOUS! I have shot over 20 rounds of each at a sitting and it IS NOT FUN! I am going to try some of the 400+ grain cast bullets in the near future in case they every spot a T-Rex that needs dispatched.

BTW, if you are interested in a Burris 1.5x EER scope, contact me via email. (It is the scope in the pic)

[ 08-26-2003, 06:47: Message edited by: MSSmagnum ]

Mike
How do you like your competitor?
Ive had one for some time now in the 6.5 Rem Mag.
I ordered a 458 Win Mag , but at the time they were having issues with that cal. So they gave me a free muzzle break and I took my second choice.

Happy Shooting

12.9

I like the Competitor a lot. I am getting a 22 Cooper Center Fire Magnum barrel for it right now. My 405 (as can be seen in the pic) has no muzzle brake and it gets tough to shoot for any period of time, i should have gone with a brake but i just hate the noise from them. I currently have a 357max and 7tcu barrels also. These both have been good shooters.

The 405 WILL be out in the deer woods this year with a 210 grain bullet!! I am also taking my 414 Super Mag (which is a OTT Contender barrel. This deer season should be fun!!

[ 08-26-2003, 19:14: Message edited by: MSSmagnum ]