Another forum member and myself were talking the other day and we spoke of accuracy.A good ,well made gun should be accurate with just about any load was the conclusion.

Now I am not talking tack driver,but well within hunting accuracy.For instance I have a modified,by myself,45 colt and it shoots 255 & 300/h110 load well,300/hs-6 load extremely well,255/231 load well.All these loads are accurate a plenty to hunt with.

What makes a gun accurate?What makes one gun just like a certain load?Why are certain bullet weights more acceptable for accuracy?I have had really good luck with 300s and I have read and seen posts where bfrshooter as well as others have excelled with the heavies.I have shot one that could clover leaf 255-280 and couldn't chunk a 300 in the ocean from a boat.Why is one revolver finacy,only find a load or two that works,and another,sometimes even made by the same manufacturer,able to digest lots of loads accurately?

Just thought I'd see where this discusion might lead.I have been thinking about it and figured I could share the load with others,hahaha.

I don't buy that a gun should shoot any load well. An accurate gun will have preferences, and will amaze you with what it will do with a good load. To me good revolver accuracy is 5 shots in 1" at 50 yds, exceptional would be 5 shots into 1" at 100 yds, and there are revolvers that are that accurate.

As to why a gun will prefer certain bullet weights, that comes down to barrel twist. A heavy or long bullet needs a faster twist to stabalize.

Accuracy comes down to consistancy, how consitantly will the gun ignite primers, how consistant are the dimensions of the chambers in the cylinder, how consistantly are they alligned with the barrel, and most importantly how consistantly do you hold it each time you squeeze off a shot.

I'm of the opinion a good revolver will shoot many bullets well, but you still have to tune the loads. I have a gun that will print 1" at 50 yds with it's preferred loads, print 3" at 25 yds with loads it doesn't like. And a bullet I'd designed for a paticular use that I thought would work well with one powder didn't work out, but I tried different powders and found pushing that bullet faster shrunk groups right down to where I wanted them.

No revolver in my hands would ever be that accurate...

quote:

Originally posted by temmi:
No revolver in my hands would ever be that accurate...

Very True Statement there.

With my HoloSighted GP100 6" and 180gr. loads I can get sub 2" groups at 50 yards. My best was around 1.5".

My Smith 44mag 629PC is giving me a 3" group or better at 50 yards. It could well be more, but I'm still learning the revolver and need to spend a lot more time with it at the range.

The thing is, I've shot a 3 shot 1 1/2" group at 100 yds with that gun, and had the sneaking suspicion that I wasn't good enough to find out how accurate the gun was.

But when you get a good revolver, do some practice, and work up loads, you'll see that your concept of what a good revolver is capable of will change.

Accuracy for what?

Small papertargets or big animals?

I don`t need 1" at 40 yds - for shooting a buffalo

Okay I am not talking expert markmanship such as Paul H seems to shoot but hunting accurate for white-tail sized game.IMO 6" groups at 100yards will dust deer all day long.
I realize with working up ammo you can find any guns sweet spot.But you should be able to find more than one load that will work.

400 gr @ 1200 fps isn't exactly a target load, but if the gun will group 5 into 1" at 50 yds, is that a bad thing?

quote:

Posted 14 June 2010 21:20 Hide Post
I don't buy that a gun should shoot any load well. An accurate gun will have preferences, and will amaze you with what it will do with a good load. To me good revolver accuracy is 5 shots in 1" at 50 yds, exceptional would be 5 shots into 1" at 100 yds, and there are revolvers that are that accurate.

As to why a gun will prefer certain bullet weights, that comes down to barrel twist. A heavy or long bullet needs a faster twist to stabalize.

Accuracy comes down to consistancy, how consitantly will the gun ignite primers, how consistant are the dimensions of the chambers in the cylinder, how consistantly are they alligned with the barrel, and most importantly how consistantly do you hold it each time you squeeze off a shot.

I'm of the opinion a good revolver will shoot many bullets well, but you still have to tune the loads. I have a gun that will print 1" at 50 yds with it's preferred loads, print 3" at 25 yds with loads it doesn't like. And a bullet I'd designed for a paticular use that I thought would work well with one powder didn't work out, but I tried different powders and found pushing that bullet faster shrunk groups right down to where I wanted them.


__________________________________________________

Thank you, you know the truth. A revolver WILL shoot with some work.
The worst thing to do is to read gun comics for information. Do your own work.

quote:

400 gr @ 1200 fps isn't exactly a target load, but if the gun will group 5 into 1" at 50 yds, is that a bad thing?

No it's not a bad thing it's a great thing.And bfrshooter I believe in putting in the work.Well here's another part how do you know when you've achieved all your gun can do?

I'm usually happy when I can put my first shot in nearly every time. I'm not much and have never been a great group shooter -- I get lucky sometimes. I grade myself and my revolver on that critical first shot on game more than anything else.

Where does it stop? I guess it can become an obsession and never stop......

Work never, ever ends! Every single shot means you need to learn from it.
I feel you are on top of it and learn the proper way from experience and not from book reading.
The proper point is when every single animal dies quick, leaves a good blood trail and you find it.
No more needs to be said!

While my shooting certianly doesn't reflect the accuracy of the handgun, I loike to look for the smallest groups at 50yd.

For the three I hunt with the most, the 41,44, and 454, I consider loads that will stay under 2" every time out good to go. This is from a solid rest. Most times they will go under that easily.

Shooting offhand, if I can keep a cylinder full around 3" or so at 50 I am REALLY happy.

This comparrison of crimps between my standard load on the right and one my bud loaded on the left is somewhat reflective of what I expect. This is actually a tad bigger due to the particular sights on that revolver. Both groups shot offhand at 40yds.


The single biggest thing I have found to influence the loads in my revolvers has been the crimp. Too much they spread out, too little they spread out as well. Since I normally use the same powder in them all, finding the right balance of crimp on the particular load is akin to finding the right powder. It might take a few rounds down range but once you hit the sweet spot and nothing is slipping out of the case neck then your there.

quote:

The single biggest thing I have found to influence the loads in my revolvers has been the crimp. Too much they spread out, too little they spread out as well. Since I normally use the same powder in them all, finding the right balance of crimp on the particular load is akin to finding the right powder. It might take a few rounds down range but once you hit the sweet spot and nothing is slipping out of the case neck then your there.

This is not true, crimp has nothing to do with accuracy. Only case tension on the boolit. Tension must be even from one case to another.
Years of testing from no crimp to full profile has shown no difference but tension is where it is at.
All brass is not equal and new brass is the worst. After shooting it a while, tension evens out as brass is worked.
Just to show this, I fired 50 new cases at 50 yards and got 7 or more different POI's.

BFR......you clearly need more practice.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
BFR......you clearly need more practice.

LOL!

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:

This is not true, crimp has nothing to do with accuracy. Only case tension on the boolit. Tension must be even from one case to another.
Years of testing from no crimp to full profile has shown no difference but tension is where it is at.
All brass is not equal and new brass is the worst. After shooting it a while, tension evens out as brass is worked.
Just to show this, I fired 50 new cases at 50 yards and got 7 or more different POI's.

quote:

The single biggest thing I have found to influence the loads in my revolvers

I will agree on case tension having to do with it as well. However, in MY revolvers shooting several times fired cases which is the norm, the crimp has been the determining factor in tightening up the groups. As to case brands, I rarely mix them and when going from one lot/brand to the next, I useually have to adjust things a bit to squeek out the best groups. I keep them seperated for the most part in 2-500pc lots.

I duely respect your experience, and am not at all argueing. I was simply stating what was the case with mine. Trust me, between you and ol Whitworth, I have learned a ton about handgun loads, but I had to figure out what was best for mine as well. The image above was loaded using the same dies and components, the only thing changed was the crimp on the bullet.

As has already been mentioned,

quote:

Work never, ever ends! Every single shot means you need to learn from it.
I feel you are on top of it and learn the proper way from experience and not from book reading.
The proper point is when every single animal dies quick, leaves a good blood trail and you find it.
No more needs to be said!

And there ya have it.

well ive been handgun shooting for over 30 years. I shoot probably an averge of 500 rounds a week. Ive loaded WELL over a million rounds and have at least 50 handguns of various calibers and action designs at any one time. I spend many many hours in load developement cast my own bullets and one a truck load of molds. I may have shot one or two one inch at 50 yards loads in my life. VERY few guns will do it off of a ransom rest. Im not doubting it could be done but to use that as an accuracy standard sure isnt practical. Id have to get rid of 99 percent of the handguns ive owned. One inch at a 100 yards with open sights id have to see to believe. Maybe with something like a tc contendor but a real handgun with a cylinder with a human pulling the trigger shooting a one inch group once is about like winning the loto and for the same gun to do it consistantly is like winning it two weeks in a row.

The OP was asking about what "makes a revolver accurate". IMHO it is a proper cylinder throat and leads, a good barrel, cylinder barrel alignment and good ammo. None of those attributes takes the shooter into account because the shooter does not make a revolver accurate. The shooter can only utilize the accuracy of the revolver. If the shooter is very good, then he can ultilizes the revolvers accuracy, if the shooter is not so good, then the accuracy of the revolver will go untapped.

quote:

Originally posted by cottonstalk:
Another forum member and myself were talking the other day and we spoke of accuracy.A good ,well made gun should be accurate with just about any load was the conclusion.

Now I am not talking tack driver,but well within hunting accuracy.For instance I have a modified,by myself,45 colt and it shoots 255 & 300/h110 load well,300/hs-6 load extremely well,255/231 load well.All these loads are accurate a plenty to hunt with.

What makes a gun accurate?What makes one gun just like a certain load?Why are certain bullet weights more acceptable for accuracy?I have had really good luck with 300s and I have read and seen posts where bfrshooter as well as others have excelled with the heavies.I have shot one that could clover leaf 255-280 and couldn't chunk a 300 in the ocean from a boat.Why is one revolver finacy,only find a load or two that works,and another,sometimes even made by the same manufacturer,able to digest lots of loads accurately?

Without defining what you mean by accurate, the discussion is pretty meaningless. What group size at what range are you calling accurate? You also have to define what you mean by hunting accuracy; are you talking ground hogs, deer or elephant?

I've found straight walled handgun cartridges the finickiest to load for. I'm still trying to get a load for a revolver that will shoot 1.5 inch 3 shot groups at 50 yards with iron sights and haven't found it yet. With a scoped Encore or Contender handgun, I'm good for quite a bit less than 1 inch 3 shot group at 100 yards if the gun is up to it and some of those are.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
The OP was asking about what "makes a revolver accurate". IMHO it is a proper cylinder throat and leads, a good barrel, cylinder barrel alignment and good ammo. None of those attributes takes the shooter into account because the shooter does not make a revolver accurate. The shooter can only utilize the accuracy of the revolver. If the shooter is very good, then he can ultilizes the revolvers accuracy, if the shooter is not so good, then the accuracy of the revolver will go untapped.

Very well said!

Grumulkin, I have found that the opposite holds true for me with regards to loading straight-walled handgun rounds. I found them far from finicky.

Well like Lloyd I've run a lot of lead down range only I've been at it for 50+ years. I don't agree that 1" groups at 50 yrds from a rest are hard to come by with the proper revolver and the right load. I do agree at 100 it becomes problematic.

quote:

Originally posted by Ahab:
Well like Lloyd I've run a lot of lead down range only I've been at it for 50+ years. I don't agree that 1" groups at 50 yrds from a rest are hard to come by with the proper revolver and the right load.

Would that be a scoped revolver or one with iron sights? I've been trying to do it with iron sights at 50 yards and haven't been able to do better than 2 or 3 inches fairly inconsistently. Revolvers tried, Ruger Redhawk 44 Mag., FA Mod 83 454 Casull and a S&W 460 S&W Magnum. If there is a magic load; please share it; I'm all ears as I've tried a BUNCH of bullets and powders and am still working on it including now going into a duplex load for my 460.

For scoped Encores and Contenders, chambered for centerfire bottle necked cartridges, I've found 1.5 MOA down to 0.75 MOA for 3 shot groups easily obtainable. I've even gotten similar performance for Encores chambered in 460 & 500 S&W Magnum but, as I said before, I found those cartridges quite a bit more finicky than the bottle necked ones.

So iron sighted revolvers,3" or less at 50 is my defintion of hunting accurate.I am not talking about the shooter just the piece itself.And I don't buy that a man lays down 400+ hard earned dollars and can't get at least a handgun that will shoot a handful of loads accurately according to these standards.

And how do you know when you've gotten all the accuracy you can get out of one?

I would think that alot of the differnces in opinions here comes from which handgun someone is shooting. If your talking tcs or long barreled 6 guns with optics its a differnt subject then an open sighted 4 inch revolver. If i couldnt shoot a one inch group at 50 yards with a scoped 8 inch handgun or a tc id be much more upset then if my 4 inch 29 wasnt doing it. Personaly i rarely carry a gun with a barrel longer then 5.5 inch and only own one handgun other then tcs that is that big. Most of my hunting is with guns with barrels between 3 and 4 5/8s and all are open sighted. A hunting handgun to me must be carryable in a hip holster. I want no slinged or wheelbarrow carried handrifle.

When I sot IHMSA is when I really got to work on revolver accuracy. I could take my SBH and shoot a dozen beer cans at 100 yards from Creedmore with open sights when my vision was good and every can was centered. I shot many, many 1" groups at 100 from Creedmore with a single shot. My best from a rest with my MOA was 5 shots in 3/8" at 100. IT IS NOT A REVOLVER and is so much easier.
Revolvers need thinking way out of the box. I have shot more 1" or less groups at 100 then I can count, even with open sights when I was young.
Just shooting will get you nowhere, you must sit at the bench and visualize what is going on in the gun when you shoot it. It was not easy.
Now I need a red dot or scope but will not hunt with a scope.
Any groups much over 1" at 50 are rejected and I have been down to 5 shots in 5/16" from a revolver. I shoot good from a rest but it is the understanding of the revolver and what it needs. Throw out all of your gun comics first. Learn your gun. You need to understand your dies, boolits, alloys, powder and primers. To go to a manual and pick a load is a waste of time and you will never get it right.
The one I laugh at most is that you need a magnum primer in the .44! Learn what a primer actually does.
Brass is important, maybe more so then anything else and the .44 and .45 is even more touchy with the larger calibers getting easier. I have less trouble with large calibers because the primer is less able to move a boolit before ignition. The .44 is a smaller case and primer pressure must be kept low and heat high.
I have shown these before. Shot at 50, 100 and 200 yards with various revolvers. Notice the .44 did 1-5/16" at 200 yards.
You Must think more and read less. The revolver can out shoot a lot of rifles.

quote:

Posted 20 June 2010 14:37 Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by bfrshooter:

This is not true, crimp has nothing to do with accuracy. Only case tension on the boolit. Tension must be even from one case to another.
Years of testing from no crimp to full profile has shown no difference but tension is where it is at.
All brass is not equal and new brass is the worst. After shooting it a while, tension evens out as brass is worked.
Just to show this, I fired 50 new cases at 50 yards and got 7 or more different POI's.



quote:
The single biggest thing I have found to influence the loads in my revolvers


I will agree on case tension having to do with it as well. However, in MY revolvers shooting several times fired cases which is the norm, the crimp has been the determining factor in tightening up the groups. As to case brands, I rarely mix them and when going from one lot/brand to the next, I useually have to adjust things a bit to squeek out the best groups. I keep them seperated for the most part in 2-500pc lots.

I duely respect your experience, and am not at all argueing. I was simply stating what was the case with mine. Trust me, between you and ol Whitworth, I have learned a ton about handgun loads, but I had to figure out what was best for mine as well. The image above was loaded using the same dies and components, the only thing changed was the crimp on the bullet.

Take a look at my 200 yard group and the other .44 groups I shot. Moderate crimp, only enough to hold boolits under recoil.
Would you believe the cases I used were shot OVER 40 TIMES? Yeah, I am CHEAP but the best accuracy can't be found with brass hardness all over the place.
You will shoot a good group now and then and put the reason on the crimp BUT YOU WERE LUCKY AND HAD BRASS CLOSE TO THE SAME TENSION. Duplicate it over and over, then come back and say it was crimp.
This is where we differ, I never go by one group, I go by hundreds and hundreds. I go through a 10" stack of targets a year.
With all else proper I can get the same size group with no crimp, shooting single shot, as I can with a crimp that will ruin brass.

quote:

Originally posted by Lloyd Smale:
I would think that alot of the differnces in opinions here comes from which handgun someone is shooting. If your talking tcs or long barreled 6 guns with optics its a differnt subject then an open sighted 4 inch revolver. If i couldnt shoot a one inch group at 50 yards with a scoped 8 inch handgun or a tc id be much more upset then if my 4 inch 29 wasnt doing it. Personaly i rarely carry a gun with a barrel longer then 5.5 inch and only own one handgun other then tcs that is that big. Most of my hunting is with guns with barrels between 3 and 4 5/8s and all are open sighted. A hunting handgun to me must be carryable in a hip holster. I want no slinged or wheelbarrow carried handrifle.

I also do not like long barreled revolvers and I typicaly shoot shorter barrels better off hand than longer barrels. Why, I am not sure. I think that it is because they balance better for me.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Take a look at my 200 yard group and the other .44 groups I shot. Moderate crimp, only enough to hold boolits under recoil.
Would you believe the cases I used were shot OVER 40 TIMES? Yeah, I am CHEAP but the best accuracy can't be found with brass hardness all over the place.

I don't know why it is you feel you have to point out exactly what I mentioned above.

quote:

You will shoot a good group now and then and put the reason on the crimp BUT YOU WERE LUCKY AND HAD BRASS CLOSE TO THE SAME TENSION. Duplicate it over and over, then come back and say it was crimp.

I am saying it now, I don't have to get lucky, and I don't have to shoot a good group now and again. They do it time after time.

quote:

This is where we differ, I never go by one group, I go by hundreds and hundreds. I go through a 10" stack of targets a year.
With all else proper I can get the same size group with no crimp, shooting single shot, as I can with a crimp that will ruin brass.

If I were shooting a single shot then the crimp would not matter as you say. However I don't ever shoot single shot handguns unless they are Contenders. You also not the only one who has shot many small groups at 100yds with a handgun in 44mag. I used to do it all the time, however I saw no need to bother taking pictures nor keeping them as they weren't a once in a while event. Like I said, I have done the work, I have shot the shots, and I know what my handguns like, and I said so in the first post.

Damn your starting to sound like Hot Core, are ya related or what?

What I meant by shooting single shot was in the revolver because with no crimp boolits will all pull out.
The worst test I did was to anneal some .44 brass trying for more consistency. Ever try to remove a cylinder with 4 boolits locking it up?

Hot Core? That's not fair, Mike. bfrshooter's actually taken game and I can vouch for it.

quote:

bfrshooter's actually taken game and I can vouch for it.

Your right, my humble apologies.

No problem, Mike!