Has anyone hunted white-tail deer with a 9x19? Any thoughts on loads?

Is that your only option?

Why? I think a 9x19 wound be a great way to wound and loose a deer.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
Why? I think a 9x19 wound be a great way to wound and loose a deer.

In the wrong hands, you are absolutely correct.

Only if that was all I had, but seeing's how it is not that case, I personally would not consider it a deer round.

Also I believe in some States it would not be legal either.

If you're talking about the 9mm Luger round, it would be technically legal in TN if it had a 4" barrel and probably legal in some other Mid-South states, but that's about all you can say for it.

It can't be justified as a primary deer weapon. If trying to think up a reason for carrying it, all that comes to mind is if you felt there was a personal defense risk where you hunt. Or if there was a problem with packs of wild dogs or something, although a magnum hunting handgun should do for that. Those kinds of things are the case in some places.

The 9mm is not my only option. My personal favorite revolver cartridge is the 41mag. I own three of them and love shooting them. I normally carry one of my 41's with me when I am hunting and feel confident that I can tag any black bear, deer, or elk which gets within 50 yards. However, I have done 97% of my big game hunting with a rifle and am inexperienced actually putting game on the ground with a handgun. My current tally with a handgun is 1 deer (454 at 110 yards), 1 skunk (40S&W at 78 yards), 1 very angry dog (40S&W at about 1 foot) and about 20 squirrels with a 22. Three years ago I had a chance at a cinnamon colored black bear at about 15 feet with my S&W Mod 57, but passed to let him grow up. He was absolutely gorgeous, but young. I’ve hunted for him the last two years and have not seen him again…just means he’ll be even bigger next year!

I realize most people hunting with a handgun will use a revolver including me. I am interested in the potential of the semi-auto's for hunting.

I am trying to find out if anyone has experience using a 9mm to hunt deer. There has been so many barrels of ink spilled over the various effectiveness of different semi-auto handgun rounds (9mm, 357 Sig, 40S&W, and 45acp) I figured someone would have taken the time to actually go and try them out hunting. Where I live there are handgun/archery only areas where I can get multiple doe tags. I'd say the average white-tail doe around here is probably 110 pounds or so. I was thinking a 147gr fmj flat nose at 1050fps would be a good way to start and should be capable of easily going through the boiler room of a doe. Since I haven’t tried this I thought I would check with someone who has to get any recommendations.

If I were you, I'd stick to the .41's, as I do. What a great cartridge!

If I had to hunt with a standard semi auto, I'd choose a 10mm or 45 acp with appropriate bullets. Possibly a 357 sig, but I really don't know much about that round, so I won't comment. I don't even like a 9mm for self defense, as I feel shooting someone with a 9mm is a real good way to REALLY piss them off. Somewhat tongue in cheek, but somewhat serious. Obviously, many deer and people have been killed with a .22 lr so you can flame me if you like, but I sure wouldn't go into a gunfight with a .22 lr if I had other options.

I think the general consensus is that a .357 mag is the minimum for hunting, with reasonable assurance of good, clean kills. Not to start a pissing contest here like the ".223 for deer" thread turned out.

I've never hunted deer with a 9mm, and I just can't seem to get my head around the concept.

To me the prudent minimum for deer is the 357 magnum. The absolute lightest load I'd want would be a 158 gr swc @ 1200 fps, but I'd rather carry a strong 357 loaded to it's potention, which is 160 gr @ 1500 fps or 200 gr @ 1200 fps.

The 9mm pails in comparison to that. The absolute best the 9 can do is 147 gr swc @ 1000 fps. I suppose if you limit yourself to head shots.

quote:

Originally posted by gringo_pistolero:
Has anyone hunted white-tail deer with a 9x19? Any thoughts on loads?

Its been done and hogs also.

Though I would hesitate to call the guys I know bottomfeeders,
they also kill very large hogs with knives--
(while I watch from a safe distance, with a large gun)

Much like any kill----
bullet placement and impact energy
( = close range with a 9mm)
I have seen the pigs shot with FMJ's ,Hydra-Shocks , Corbons, etc)--
-in heads mostly, and some running shots to the thorax--

let's just say
--I wouldn't want you shoot me in the chest at 25 to 50yds with a 9mm Hyrda-Shock from what I've seen.

i noticed you never killed with the 41 mag.It is obvious this should hold the highest priority

I think next to the .32, the 9mm is the ultimate in deer medicine. Seriously.

In Wisconsin, it's fairly specific about what handguns are legal to hunt whitetail.

It specifies .357, .41 mag, .44 mag or "any handgun that generates a minimum of 1,000 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle." It goes on to other restrictions about barrel length too.

Even a .357 is minimal at bowhunting ranges. If you consider 1,000 ft/lbs to be the minimum energy requirement for ethically killing a whitetail, even the .357 doesn't cut it with Remington's "best" round. That only generates 610 lb/ft at the muzzle. That's less than a .30-30 at 300 yards!

The highest muzzle energy I can find on Remington's ballistics chart is 399 lb/ft for a 9mm. So I suppose if you could put yourself within 20 feet or so, it might be effective.

Personally, I wouldn't do it. If you have a .41 mag., that's what I would be using. In one way, you're lucky in that Montana doesn't have any caliber restrictions for hunting, but still....

We're back to the whole ft/lbs of energy crock. Game Departments for the most part are utterly clueless as to what is necessary to kill an animal. Therefore they, like the general population use energy figures as a means of determining the "fitness" of one cartridge compared to another because it is the only figure they understand.

I've known people who have killed more deer and lost far fewer with a .22 LR than some of the nimrods who claim one has to use a minimum of a .300 Win Mag; with that being on the near edge of light for deer. Energy just is NOT a good indication of the effectiveness on game animals.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
We're back to the whole ft/lbs of energy crock. Game Departments for the most part are utterly clueless as to what is necessary to kill an animal. Therefore they, like the general population use energy figures as a means of determining the "fitness" of one cartridge compared to another because it is the only figure they understand.

I've known people who have killed more deer and lost far fewer with a .22 LR than some of the nimrods who claim one has to use a minimum of a .300 Win Mag; with that being on the near edge of light for deer. Energy just is NOT a good indication of the effectiveness on game animals.

Amen, brother!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shof:
In Wisconsin, it's fairly specific about what handguns are legal to hunt whitetail.

It specifies .357, .41 mag, .44 mag or "any handgun that generates a minimum of 1,000 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle." It goes on to other restrictions about barrel length too.

Wis changed that part of the law some years ago now a legal hand gun cailber is any center fire caliber .224 or bigger that is legal in a rifle is legal in a hand gun as long as the hand gun has a min barrel length of 5 inchs or more measured from the firing pin forward.

So any hand gun round that can be had in a rifle or carbine is legal I though about making a 16.25 in contender barrel in 25 acp then any 25 acp with a 5 inch barrel would be a legal deer round.

If I any of my 9mm pistols on me and had to kill a deer. I would wait for a good broad side shot under 35 yards with a good rest. Place the 9mm bullet into the lungs/heart and kill the deer.

Would not be my frist choice but if it was my only choice I would hunt with it like I do my bow and kill deer.

In this state a .41 mag is pretty much the legal minimum. Why do so many people like to push the limits of the low side? Yeah maybe you CAN do it, but should you? I met a guy in Michigan once that bragged about all the deer he killed with a .22lr and then I heard, yeah thats the guy running all over the woods every year looking for the deer he shot! I have killed a lot of deer with .22lr and .22wmr bullets in them, I've seen a boar hog with a .50 caliber round ball imbedded in its shoulder shield barely to its own depth and a lot of other fiascos from people only thinking about what THEY would like to do and not about what they owe to the animals they hunt. They deserve more than someone experimenting on them to see what the minimum is to kill them in the perfect circumstances. Game dept. regulations may not be perfect, BUT they are there for a reason. Maybe there is a GOOD REASON why there is a lack of information on hunting with underpowered cartridges.

The object when hunting is to kill your game fast enough so that you can find it. I've had bad luck with the .357 mag., I definately think that the 9mm would be a poor choice on deer. The .41 mag. is my favorite.

well, where the hell is HotCore when you really need him?

The sectional density on most 9MM bullets is pretty poor and they lack the sheer mass to overcome that. But the 147 gr loads do tear up a lot of meat if you get one where it belongs. For me, I'd feel better with the penetration of a 7.65 Tokarev or other high velocity 30 cal than a moderately fast 9MM in 110 or 115 grain load.

Step up to a 230 grain 45 ACP and now you have the mass to do the job much more efficiently, even if the SD is still low on paper.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
For me, I'd feel better with the penetration of a 7.65 Tokarev or other high velocity 30 cal.

The Tok is truly amazing on penetration.

Did a "test" on some expensive "bullet proof" 5 layer "glass"
(laminate lexan) designed for tellers,
almost 3" thick.

The 9 Hydras imbedded in the 1st/2nd layer border.
The 9 FMJ in the 2nd layer.
The 45 HP and FMJ stopped in layer 1.
The 357 JFP stopped at layer 3.
the 44Mag 240JFP imbedded in layer 4.

The Tok and the 30 carbine FMJ's zipped through and through the support board behind it.
(I did not have SP's that day in either cal. to test.)

FYI, in Europe a TOK vest was developed due to the round penetrating std body armor.

I think the 9MM will kill a Deer.I also could not think of a worse choice to use for just about anything.I like clean one shot kills.Odds are with a 9MM,that aint gonna happen.

Its not a legal round where I live, 357 mag or larger in a 6 inch barreled handgun.

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
I think the 9MM will kill a Deer. I also could not think of a worse choice to use for just about anything.

Our DNR says we can hunt big game (not just deer, but black bear and moose) with any centerfire of .22 caliber or larger, so I suppose a fella could try hunting with his 25 ACP Beretta Jetfire. Would that be worse?

I use to do business with several companies that manufactured soft body armor and the fabric used to make it, they told me the toughest handgun round to stop? The .22WMR solid point. Penetration isn't everything when it comes to killing animals quickly and humanely. Maybe the reason that you don't hear anyone talking about hunting with the 9mm and the like, is not because no one has tried it, but because someone has tried it and dosn't want to admit their mistake.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
We're back to the whole ft/lbs of energy crock. Game Departments for the most part are utterly clueless as to what is necessary to kill an animal. Therefore they, like the general population use energy figures as a means of determining the "fitness" of one cartridge compared to another because it is the only figure they understand.

I've known people who have killed more deer and lost far fewer with a .22 LR than some of the nimrods who claim one has to use a minimum of a .300 Win Mag; with that being on the near edge of light for deer. Energy just is NOT a good indication of the effectiveness on game animals.

That does not make it right. Any game can be killed with what some consider inadequate rounds. The thing I stress is, have or use a round that you know will kill and animal quickly and not require mutable shots to finish it off.

Why condone using a handgun round that is not adequate for the job?

Yea yea I know about the guy with the 300 Win Mag, he was just a piss poor shot, and no matter what he used he was going to wound an animal instead of kill it. But that does not make the 300 Mag worthless.

And get off the ft/lbs of energy kick.. I am glad State's put in regulation on ft/lbs of energy , because if not, people like you would condone the use of anything they want to use.

You are correct, the .300 Win Mag is a good round for deer. I have killed a lot of deer with it, especially at longer ranges. That doesn't make it a minimum.

As far as the energy kick, I can say the same for the side that insists on using it as a gauge. I don't believe I have condoned the use of a 9MM on deer in this thread. I have made a statement that I know people who have consumed more deer taken with a .22 LR than most people see. Based on what I have seen at the range, most folks would better served with a shotgun; but I digress.

I have killed a lot of deer with a lot of calibers. What is "inadequate" in the hands of someone who either can not shoot or keep his cool may be totally "adequate" for someone who can. That is a decision to be made by the individual, hopefully prior to taking a shot. My .54 caliber muzzle-loading handgun apparently is deemed inadequate by some game agencies although I use the same charge and projectile as in my rifle; which by the way, is deemed adequate. So I once again say, don't try to impose personal limits on other people.

I killed a whitetail doe with a 9mm.

It was an H&K P7 with 115gr Remington HP.

I sorta bumped into her in heavy brush at very close range, 10 or 12 feet. I shot her once in the neck, she ran maybe 15 yards and was down and dead.

I have shot a whitetail doe and a buck and a mule deer buck with a 1911 in 45 ACP.

The whitetail with 185 gr IMI FMJ and the mule deer with a stout reload with the 200 Hornady jacketed SWC, a coy of the H&G 68.

I had to shoot the mule deer buck twice.

I have shot deer with a 44 Mag as well.

The 44 Mag is much superior, IMHO.

41 mag and up only!

MS Hitman, the prolbem with letting everyone impose their own limits is that its often people that don't believe they have ANY personal limits making the decision, i.e. "I should be able to hunt with whatever I want", one of the so many problems with that is, what ANY hunter does reflects on ALL other hunters. Maybe there is an individual who could cleanly kill deer everytime with a 9mm or any other undersized cartridge, thats not the vast majority of hunters, so what do you do? Trust the individual to impose their own limits? Unfortunately its often the person with no experience making that decision.

I might be crucified here, but I don't think it's a matter of "can you kill a whitetail with a 9mm?" as much as it's a matter of "should you even try?"

As many have been quick to point out, poachers have used the lowly .22 LR to kill deer for generations. But because the .22 LR can be and has been used, doesn't make it a good deer round. The same reasoning applies here to the 9mm.

Hunter ethics do come into play and I believe that the use of a 9mm pistol isn't an ethical way to kill a deer. As hunters, we owe it to our quarry to kill as quickly and cleanly as possible.

I've read many different times and in many different places that 1,000 ft/lb of energy is considered to be the minimum acceptible for whitetail size game. It certainly seems reasonable to me.

In the case of a survival situation, then all bets are off and if all I had available was a 9mm, then I'd be trying to kill a deer with what I had at hand.

However, the original poster wasn't talking about a survival situation, but sport hunting with the 9mm. And with a .41 magnum readily available, and as it is an accepted hunting handgun, I believe that would be a far better choice of weaponry to use.

But what do I know?

I wouldn't hunt whitetail with a 9x19 either, but it's interesting to note that LEOs defend themselves and their communities from violent felons with cartridges (9x19, 38 special, 357 SIG, 40 S&W, etc.) most of us wouldn't think of using on a 200 lb deer, whose instinct is to run away.

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
For me, I'd feel better with the penetration of a 7.65 Tokarev or other high velocity 30 cal.

The Tok is truly amazing on penetration.

Did a "test" on some expensive "bullet proof" 5 layer "glass"
(laminate lexan) designed for tellers,
almost 3" thick.

The 9 Hydras imbedded in the 1st/2nd layer border.
The 9 FMJ in the 2nd layer.
The 45 HP and FMJ stopped in layer 1.
The 357 JFP stopped at layer 3.
the 44Mag 240JFP imbedded in layer 4.

The Tok and the 30 carbine FMJ's zipped through and through the support board behind it.
(I did not have SP's that day in either cal. to test.)

FYI, in Europe a TOK vest was developed due to the round penetrating std body armor.

Back when the Chinese Tok was being imported in numbers, a little ole granny in South Texas bought one for home protection and shortly after had to use it.

The perp was hit coming full-on in a head first charge, like a bull. The round hit on top of the collar bone and exited his hip. About 3.5 feet of penetration and DRT in the doorway. It is an amazing little round.

I'm not recommending the Tok for game at all; just commenting on its penetration. A human hit by gunfire has an awareness of injury beyond that of animals and can fold like a rag doll with a minor hit or continue the fight while dead-on-the-feet, depending on the person.

loboga, my point is that just because you are not willing or able to do something; does not in any way affect whether or not I am capable or willing. The problem I have is if or when you try to impose your limitations on me.

Now, just because something can be done; does not mean it should be done. A shining example is the continued reelection of this country's congressmen and senators. Can a deer be killed quickly with a 9MM? The answer is yes; provided proper bullet selection and placement is followed. Should it be done? I will leave that decision to the individual unless such an act is illegal in the state in which that person resides. Likewise, I will continue to try and educate people on the error of using energy as a means of gauging the effectiveness of a cartridge.

Hitman, what standard should be used then as a means for gauging the effectiveness of a cartridge if not a minimal energy factor?

quote:

Originally posted by Shof:
Hitman, what standard should be used then as a means for gauging the effectiveness of a cartridge if not a minimal energy factor?

Shof, ME is a marketing tool. There are many .454 Casull factory loads that are way more "powerful" on paper than a .475 or .500 Linebaugh, but they by no means kill as well. ME is calculated not measured.......

While it is also calculated, momentum is a better indicator; especially considering momentum is what is transferred and not energy. Energy is a marketing tool used by the arms and ammunition manufacturers to sell faster cartridges and new rifles. Velocity is the "key" factor in the energy equation. Because velocity is squared in the equation, even smaller increases bump up the numbers.

Bullet mass and diameter are constants while velocity is diminishing once the bullet leaves the barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
While it is also calculated, momentum is a better indicator; especially considering momentum is what is transferred and not energy. Energy is a marketing tool used by the arms and ammunition manufacturers to sell faster cartridges and new rifles. Velocity is the "key" factor in the energy equation. Because velocity is squared in the equation, even smaller increases bump up the numbers.

Bullet mass and diameter are constants while velocity is diminishing once the bullet leaves the barrel.

Thank you for elaborating -- I didn't have the energy (measurable in this case!).......

Ok, I can understand that.

I shoot a fair amount, as well as try to keep myself educated about hunting and shooting.

I understand bullet momentum, penetration, energy transfer, wound channels and such.

But the average guy that picks up a rifle for a week or two of deer hunting rarely does.

How does a state or provincial agency then establish minimum standards for ethical kills? Because you know as well as I do, that unless minimum standards are set, there will be people out there wounding deer with totally inadequate firearms.

Shof,

I agree that there are people who will not adequately arm, much less prepare themselves to hunt any animal properly. I also agree the average person has little or no understanding how things actually work, hence the reason energy is such a big thing to the majority. The game departments are in place to maintain and preserve huntable populations of game animals. Their movement into controlling what arms are used is just another power grab by a government entity. This is one of the actions that reduced the need for people to think for themselves and accept responsibility for their actions.