Hello all...

Santy brought me a Taurus Tracker in .44 mag..Yay!

I'm seeing h-110 as a very popular choice in alot of recipes. But does the 4" barrel limit the ability of this slower powder? Should I look at a little faster powder?

This isn't a primary hunting weapon, of course - but back-up/protection and possible up close work for hogs. I'm looking at hard-cast bullets in the 270-280 gr. weight.

Thanks!

quote:

This isn't a primary hunting weapon, of course

Why not?

4" barrel.

But I wouldn't hesitate to go into a tunnel or bed with it - although I have a Timber Carbine in .444 Marlin for that kind of stuff.

H-110 will always produce higher velocities as opposed to a faster burning powder, no matter what the barrel length.

Loco,
I will go against what most will tell you say to stick with 2400 or H4227 maybe even lilgun as I have seen too great of shot to shot variation with 296 and H110. H110 and 296 seem to do best when slightly compressed and their performance when temps drop can be abysmal at best. Don't want to start any war here but I think alot of folks jumped on the H110 train due to some gun writers talking it up, it is not the be all end all pistol powder, not even for the magnums and some loads listed using it in the 45 colt (even by Hogdon"s manual)fly in the face of Hogdon's own reccomendation not to reduce loads by more than 10%, never could figure that one out. Try starting with maybe 17 gr of 2400 or 21 gr. of H4227 with your bullet choice (270-280 gr. lead bullets)and work up or down to develop an accurate and shootable load.
My best to you and yours, Steve
P.S. H4227 is called an extreme powder by Hogdon and is supposed to be less affected by temperature variation, you will need a heavy crimp with any of the powders listed above!

H110 and WW296 give higher velocities than any other powder, even in a snub nose. The last time I checked the standard deviation, it was 1.55% in a 2 5/8" Ruger Speed Six pushing a 160 grainer to 1300+ fps. Not too shabby. Magnum pistol primers, of course.

I don't shoot a lot in cold weather, but haven't noticed any problem when I do.

Bullet design and bullet lube can have a tremendous effect on velocity variation. I use Rooster HVR lube and a bullet design that seats fairly deep. Conventional cast bullets and lubes will double the standard deviation.

2400 and 4227 are accurate powders, and I sometimes use them for mild (1100 - 1200 fps) loads, but they can't touch WW296 for velocity.

Lil Gun is great in long barrels but struggles to crack 1000 fps in a 2 5/8" barrel. Maybe it would do better in a 4" barrel, I dunno.

Depending what bullet weight your using if you are going with the heavy weight stuff 300grs or so I would use H110. If I were using a lighter bullet I would go with a faster powder.

I've been using 296 and 2400 in a 4 5/8" Ruger for years with very good results. I quit 4227 a long time ago as it never would burn completely for me and left kernels all in the revolvers I shot it in. It is better suited in my .357 Herrett IMO.

Work up to 18 gr of 2400. I shoot a ported 4" Dan Wesson shooting a 320 gr SWC and it will shoot inside 2" at 25 yds. I've never shot anything big with it, but it will punch a 6"x6" pressure treated yellow pine post with no effort.

If you shoot at night, be ready for an 18" muzzle blast which tells me I'm pushing a bunch of powder out the barrel still burning. It is NOT a starter load for the faint of heart!!

I agree with others that H-110 will produce the highest velocities, but in loading for several 3" and 4" 29's, I have found that 2400 gives almost as much velocity with far less muzzle blast and flash.

quote:

This isn't a primary hunting weapon, of course

Why not?

quote:

4" barrel

Yeah, I shoot iron sights better with a longer sight radius these days too, still a four inch 44 has all the juice a fella needs for most hunting. I've been known to deliberately hunt whitetail with nothing more than a four inch M629 Mtn Gun, but I must admit it's about half again more challenging that using the Bisley. Good hunting!

Guys,
Are all these statements about 2400 not touching H110 based on actual results or just conjecture being passed on from, load manuals, gun writers etc? Any difference between the velocities I have witnessed could just have easily been attributed to lot to lot variation in the powders. Now I realize that 2400 is slightly faster and is out done by H110 with heavy bullets (300 gr.+up) but I have seen loads with standard weight bullets making the powders almost indistinguishable. I believe 2400 is a more consistent (lot to lot variation) and lots more flexible.
FYI- Check velocities in the Speer #11 reloading manual under the 454 Casull and here 2400 is king in the velocity department, and the 44 mag velocity is about even in all loads containg 2400, 296 and H110. I know the powder is ever so slightly faster today and the manual is "out of date" but I just have not seen the "always faster" thing reported here.
Loco, my reccomendation was based on the fact that A) the gun is light in weight and you may not want to have to use Barn busting loads to hunt or practice with, 2400 is superior to H110 and 296 in its ability to not need 90% plus load density to yield good results. B)My own results have shown that with the exception of "the change" to the powder increasing its burning rate it is, lot to lot, more consistent than H110 and 296. C) it will generally, as pointed out by another poster, give less blast, especially from your short barreled gun.
All the powders listed are proven performers and will undeniebly take game, I suppose the best thing to do would be to get a pound of 296 or H110 (they are about the same) and a pound of 2400 and give'em a go, see which you prefer (accuracy, velocity, blast etc.) We have narrowed it down to 2-3 which should only cost you $30 or so and have plenty of loads to compare, and if you find you don't like the 2400 you know one guy, anyway, that will take the excess off your hands, at the neccesary AR member discount!(lol) My best to you and Safe testing, Steve

Thanks all for the info.

Happy New Year...

quote:

Originally posted by sixguntech:
Guys,
Are all these statements about 2400 not touching H110 based on actual results or just conjecture being passed on from, load manuals, gun writers etc?

in my own experience, mostly with 4" 29/629's, I would get high pressure signs (primers extruded into firing pin hole, velocity SD jumping, sometimes sticky extraction) with 2400 at velocities 50+ fps below 296 or H110.

The 2400 loads were much more pleasant to shoot, and of course 50 fps is meaningless, so I stuck with the 2400 for my shooting.

I have a half dozen .357 Magnums with barrels from 2.5 to 6 " and an S & W Model 29 with a 6" barrel. Years ago I used 2400 in all my Magnums since then I have switched to H110. All guns in all barrel lengths with H110 have been chronographed for comparison against 2400. H110 outperformed 2400 in every case with several bullet weights. But having said that the real reason for the switch is it shoots better groups for me.

One thing people overlook in a short barrel is target type powder. You don't need 1300+ fps for a gun 40 cal or more to be effective. A 200 to 250 gr bullet, at 1000 to 2500 fps is enough to do almost anything you need to do.

Powders like reddot, greendot, bullseye, herco, hp38, unique, will give good results, good accuracy from any barrel length.

While I like 2400 and H110 for max loads, I am going to recommend some light loads.
Start with 7.5 grains of Unique and work up to the power level you like for moderate loads. 10 grains should be about max.

296 is the powder for max velocity and great accuracy in .44 Mag. I shot 2 S&W mod 29 loose with 1000's rounds of full loads through a 4" and 6.5".
Just make sure you run the reccomended load with magnum primers and a heavy crimp.
I seem to recall my load was 25gr W296 with Hornady 240gr equalling around 1350fps through the 4".
My last .44 was a 5.5" Redhawk which had to be handed into the government 18 months ago in the last crack down on firearms here in Australia.
After 27 years of having a handgun licence the terms of maintaining a handgun licence became so onerous i opted out! [required to attend 6 competition shoots per annum plus only legitimate match for .44 is silhouette]
A very accurate cartridge which i had some 28 years experience with.
APB

I have found a great difference between H110 and 296 as far as accuracy in different guns. My SBH, SRH and the BFR's love 296 and H110 will not approach the tight groups I get with any amount of fiddling with the loads. However, the standard RH would spray bullets with 296 and H110 turned it into a tackdriver. I recommend you try both powders in whatever guns you shoot. Also try the Fed 150 primer with 296, you might be surprised. You need very tight case tension for accuracy with either powder.
I shot nothing but 2400 back when and liked it, but I get more accuracy from 296. I care nothing about velocity. If I could get the groups with 2400, I would still be using it.
4227 is another story. I shot the tightest groups with it from my .44, it is not sensitive to outside temperatures (although I never have a problem with 296) but in the .44 it goes crazy when THE GUN GETS HOT. This trait does not show up in other calibers like the .357 max or the small rifle loads. I can not explain it, but it will never go in my .44 again. If shot slow and the gun kept cool it is OK, but never try it at an IHMSA shoot. If you shoot 4227 over a chronograph at a target and keep shooting to heat the gun, you will find bullet impact will keep getting lower and lower on the target and velocity will get faster and faster and primers will flatten more and more. I have ONLY found this in the .44 because I am afraid to put it in my .45 and .475. It was my powder of choice in the .357 max though.
Don't take my word for it, do the test. If you do it on a hot summer day I am sure you will never use it in your .44 either. This applies to both 4227's.
I have been having discussions at the other site where I stated shooting a big bore handgun at 25 or 30 yd's was a waste of time to check loads or components. To prove my point I posted a picture of a group shot at 30 yd's from my Vaquero I shot yesterday using 296 and a 335 gr LBT WLNGC. I put the first six shots in one hole that measured 9/16" I then shot five different loads, 30 shots, into a 1-3/4" group. I have been unable to convince the guys to move to 50 yd's to test changes between loads.
How do you guys feel about this?

You guys may be right about absolute velocity, but what about muzzle blast and unburned powder. If you like it, use it. I typically like a hunting revolver to have a 6" or longer tube. When a Magnum revolver has a 3" or 4" tube I also consider it as a potential defense handgun. Then I also think about muzzle flash/blast. Powders slightly faster than Magnum starting say at AA#9 which has dual prupose capability and can be used in some autopistol loads as well and going up the burn rate chart to say around HS-6, there are many fine powders capable of producing all the velocity necessary. Some Ball types like VV3N37 and AA#7 will keep flash to a minimum and #7 in particular is excellent for producing accuracy at a velocity similar to factory magnum loads. From a 4" Magnum, the slight velocity advantage with powders like H110, W296 and 2400 is easily made up with the lack of muzzleblast/flash and unburned powder achieveable with Service/Magnum burn rate powders. In particular to a 4" revolver, I'd be more inclined to use Blue Dot than 2400 for a hunting load, but to reduce flash even more for a defense application load, as well as Standard Deviation, I'd look at one of the dense ball powders in the range mentioned previously!

You won't be using the same loads for hunting and defense a good hunting load will likely over pentrate going through the bad guy, your wall, your neighbors wall, your neighbor, your neighbors other wall, etc.

Living in the litigation state, I use factory loads reccomended by my local sporting goods store for self defense. If litigation was not an issue, I would use WW231 or HP38 at 10% below maximum pushing a high qualty JHP to help minimize over penetration issues.

As an intersting side note, last I read Mr Ayoobs manstopper data, the 44 mag was rated lower than 40 S&W and 357 rem mag. But then again, it has been a while.

John

First off, Massod Ayoob was talking about full power factory loads that produce too much penetration and little expansion at the excessive kinetic energies produced. That's why we handload.

All hunting loads are not required to be maximum and not all defensive shootings occur in the bedroom. Who would actually choose a 3 or 4" Magnum vs. a 6" or longer for a primary hunting handgun? I think there's a lot more crossover here than what you're considering. Some hunters using a rifle often pack a sixgun in the event a coupe-de-gracie has to be executed (PI), or smaller game needs to be dispatched. Maybe Homie's pit bull dog has decided to snack on your leg!

I don't keep a .41 or .44 Magnum, bedside, but I might carry one in the pickup when traveling. And, if you were attacked while in the field, are you going to ask for time to go home and get your Massod Ayoob approved ammo? Doesn't happen frequently, but that doesn't mean it's never happened.

And, if you handload, you match the bullet to the application. In defensive cartridges, nothing has surpassed a 125 gr. JHP in .357 Magnum from a 4" revolver. Why is that? Most of the best stopping defense loads generate 500 ft/lbs of kinetic energy +/- so long as you don't start getting over 600 Ft/Lbs in the magnums. Hence , Massod Ayoobs comments because the loads discussed were far in excess of what's known to work. But, if your shooting a 3" .44 Magnum with a 180 gr. JHP and holding a limit of 550 ft/lbs you will need a muzzle velocity of 1173 FPS. You want to load that with W-231, be my guest. Likewise, would you say this load has no hunting potential, or that 3 or 4" magnums have no hunting potential. The powders I mentioned will give much better results than HP-38 or W-231. Check those handloads that use H110 in a barrel under 4" and compare loads loaded with the better Service/Magnum powders and talk to your chronograpgh. Check Standard deviation.

If someone breaks into my house, I won't be aiming at the sheetrock and there is a simple solution for living in a socialist state: MOVE!

Excuse this post in advance for being off topic but i could not let the "Ayoob" comment go without my personal experiences being noted.
Years ago I used to hunt [read chase ] feral pigs on a dirt bike on a large property.
These four legged animals are pound for pound one of the hardest to stop animals around and obviously can't really be compared to the 2 legged variety.
However if I had my druthers i would rather use one round of 240gr HP .44 Mag than either a 9mm or 40S&W for either 2 or 4 legs.
Whilst i have not been stupid enough to use a 9mm on pigs i have used both .357 and .40S&W with full loads. Both failed miserably in comparison to the .44Mag.
I shot several 100 pigs off the bike and it was amongst the most exciting shooting i can remember.
Once their adrenalin was up they accepted .357m slugs almost with impunity.
On one occasion I emptied a cylinder of .357m into a large sow only to have to drop the bike on her and bail out as I reloaded following a charge.
After i began using the .44M my limit was 3 shots on the largest boar I ever shot.
NB :- I found that a .44m would turn a boar on a charge with a frontal shot wheras the other 2 calibers will not!
This was borne out many times as my modus operandi was to find these hogs and chase them until they tired a bit then stop and shoot them whilst i was stationary.
In most cases they however would be coming to have a go at me. In the African forum they would be "charging!"
to put this into perspective it was reasonably open country without much timber on the ground.
Quite often a large boar would object to being chased at all and sometimes they turned and came after as little as 100yds on their tail.
I wish I had some video footage from those days!
Horses for courses but run all 3 cartridges with light pills and max velocity [Eg 180gr JHP in .44M] and NO WAY will it not be streets ahead of the other 2 for stopping power! This is real world centre of mass comparisons.
Give me a choice for the 2 legged variety and I would opt for the good old 12ga thanks but maybe it has too much penetration to "perform" well either? This is for stopping power - within 15yds ASAP.
APB

quote:

Originally posted by KLN357:
First off, Massod Ayoob was talking about full power factory loads that produce too much penetration and little expansion at the excessive kinetic energies produced. That's why we handload.

Isn't that what I said? Back to the point, most succeful hunting loads are hard cast lead loading upwards to 18-20 grains of W296. This is a very effective load on dear and hogs, not very good for self defense loads.

quote:

Who would actually choose a 3 or 4" Magnum vs. a 6" or longer for a primary hunting handgun?

Please read topic.

quote:

And, if you were attacked while in the field, are you going to ask for time to go home and get your Massod Ayoob approved ammo? Doesn't happen frequently, but that doesn't mean it's never happened.

Men have been hit by meteors, it doesn't mean you need to carry a load to down meteors. Usually you will know when you are going hunting, and you don't know when you are going to need to defend yourself. A prudent choice would be to leave your defense ammo in your firearm until you go hunting. Besides, if you are in the field hunting, over penetration probably won't be an issue, unless you are hunting in the neigbors dog run. Then again, your mileage may vary.

quote:

And, if you handload, you match the bullet to the application. In defensive cartridges, nothing has surpassed a 125 gr. JHP in .357 Magnum from a 4" revolver.

This has been proven statistically; however, unless you have some uniques gunsmithing skills, they won't fit into your 44 mag revolver with much sucess. (again look at topic).

quote:

Likewise, would you say this load has no hunting potential, or that 3 or 4" magnums have no hunting potential.

David bested Goliath with a rock and a strap of leather, I still don't like the odds. Hunting bullets are there to increase your odds of success, not contribute to uncertainty.

quote:

If someone breaks into my house, I won't be aiming at the sheetrock and there is a simple solution for living in a socialist state: MOVE!

As you have made abundantly clear, you never know when you may be attacked, it may be in the woods by wolves wearing bullet proof vests, or it could be in the bedroom. I am sure you are equally not going to be able to ask an assailant to hold up why you put the more effective loads into your revolver so you don't execute your neighbor while repelling his/her attack. Again a prudent man would be prepared for self defense and have those loads in his revolver at the ready.

Again, the point is, you can use a 44 mag 4" for hunting and self defense, but it is very likely that you would be served with two loads.

Boy, I have enjoyed some great responses here. How this post got on to self defense is beyond me though. These are two completely different things! When hunting I want a big, heavy, flat nose boolit that won't stop. I do not want an explosive bullet that goes in 2 or 3 inches. For self protection I DO want an explosive bullet that will stop in some jerk. Where do some of you hunt where you need a self protection bullet? Why does any hunter need to carry two different loads? Are some of you hunting in DC? I can assure you that any good hunting load will do just great if some creep attacks you in the woods. You do not have to be concerned with over penetration. Are you going to stop a charging bear of pig while you change loads?
The man asked about back up against animals, not people.

To the original question, a 270 to 320 gr hardcast bullet will achieve it's highest velocity with H-110 or W-296, 2400 is much too fast for the heavier bullets in the 44, and will be a good couple hundred fps slower than A-110 W-296.

When I had a 4 5/8" blackhawk I easily drove 300-330 gr bullets 1200 fps, and even loaded the 330 gr to 1300 fps with no signs of pressure, though I loaded back to 1200 fps in defference of printed load data.

2400 is a good powder for the lighter bullets in magnum pistol rounds, but simply burns too fast to get top velocity with the medium and heavy weight bullets. Lil gun is in between 2400 and H-110/W-296 in burning speed, so works well with the light and medium weight bullets, but isn't ideal for the heaviest pills. The nice thing about Lil-gun is it can be downloaded without issues, unlike H-110/W-296.

bfrshooter,

The answere to your question about needing self-defense in hunting areas is in my case that I hunt on state and federal land. Growing, manufacturing, and production of illegal substances is not unusual in these areas, even the more traveled areas. The dumping of bodies and rapes are not uncommon either. I try to avoid the more easily accessible areas, but sometimes so do the bad guys. No I don't live in DC, but near Houston, Tx. and don't want a pleasant excursion to end up with me as fertilizer for a marijuana plant.

With respect to Rancho Loco, I believe he mentioned that the revolver was not his primary hunting handgun. He also metioned that it's a 4" Taurus Tracker! A pretty light handgun to be shooting bullets 300 grs. and heavier from. A bit lighter than a 4 5/8" Blackhawk, even. I don't know about the rest of you, but my hunting loads get a pretty good range shakedown before they get carried. I'd thoroughly enjoy watching anyone shoot even 50 rounds of some of the loads being recommended, from a 4" Taurus Tracker! I'd even buy him a beer after he was finished. He'd deserve one!

R. Loco also asked if there was appreciable velocity loss using H-110 with a 4" revolver. I guess this would depend on some shooters concepts of appreciation. Whether or not you expect unburned powder and poor standard deviations and how you feel about excessive muzzle blast from the loads you were using in your 4" .44 Magnum.

I live in one of the heaviest populated whitetail and hog areas in the US. 300 pounders are here and prices paid for pork goes up with a bonus for the heavier pigs. I know a good number of ranchers that don't even shoot pigs anymore. They trap and sell them.

Some of you may not get the crossover implications, but there are a number of handgun calibers that get used around here. Some not so wise, but I haven't heard lately, of anyone being mamed. More than a few of these guys are using the .45 ACP for close in shots. You'd also be surprised how many ranchers have bought SKS rifles over the past few years, but that's a different matter and it's mostly about economics.

BFR, I don't usually see the commonly used .429" JHP/JSPs referred to as explosive; the 180 gr. JHPs expand more rapidly for sure, but they have also taken a number of deer around here. Not the choice for hogs, but 2-3" of penetration? what were you shooting IHMSA pigs? Ideal penetration for defense bullets is around 12-13" so lets drop the explosive hyperbole. We all know you don't hunt with Glazers or Mag-Safe loads.

BBBH, you responded with: "Isn't that what I said?" . . . I think it's more about the parts you left unsaid, and a handloader can use the same defense bullet in many cases that he might use on a pig. The Massod Ayoob reference omitted that a typical 240 gr. JHP load develops 1250-1300 FPS from a 4" .44 Magnum with most standard loads. That's 833-900 Ft/lbs of kinetic energy. The reason they're inneffective is because they go through a human torso before they have had a chance to expand (I think that's the part you said that most of us already knew), so why wouldn't they work on a pig? (this being the part needing clarification).

The optimum limit of the most effective defense loads are peaking at about 550 ft/lbs in any caliber. 240 gr. 44 Magnum velocity would be around 1015 FPS. .44 Magnum potential as a defense load gets much better at the lower velocity with this weight. Is this an inferior load in comparison to a 230 gr. .45 ACP load that develops around 400 Ft/lbs, depending on the load?

Do you guys believe that a 240 gr. JHP won't provide sufficient penetration on a pig! Fine, use a 240 gr. JSP! Maybe the exploding bullets won't, but I can't say I ever tried 'em. With R. Loco's guidelines, I'd say the 270-280 gr. hard cast bullet at the highest velocity he's comfortable with will get it done. A Jacketed bullet of 270 grs. like the SPEER Gold Dot will work just as well if not better. A lot of this cast bullet stuff is conjecture. Bullets that penetrate sufficiently with at least some expansion will stop better than a non expanding bullet penetrating to the same depth. We're not talking about African game and the fact that no one has developed an expanding elephant bullet that will also provide the necessary penetration. A 240-250 gr. JSP will get it done. Sierra Silhouette bullets will give some expansion if velocity is high enough and if it's not high enough, it won't be any less effective than a cast bullet. If you can get good consistent shot placement with velocities over 1150-1200 FPS, more powder to ya! H-110, nor W-296 would be my powder choice, but it may be for some guys and that's fine. AA#9 would be the slowest I'd look at and I'd most likely use AA#7, Blue Dot, or something else with a similar burn rate. Lower charge weights, less recoil, better and more complete combustion with lower standard deviation between rounds. Under these conditions, which powder is most likely to give the best accuracy?

Again, this is not rhinoceros we're talking about, but it is a 4" Taurus Tracker and if we're talking about a ported model, usable barrel length is just over 3". That makes an even stronger case for not using one of the magnum powders!

quote:

Originally posted by Rancho Loco:
Hello all...

Santy brought me a Taurus Tracker in .44 mag..Yay!

I'm seeing h-110 as a very popular choice in alot of recipes. But does the 4" barrel limit the ability of this slower powder? Should I look at a little faster powder?

This isn't a primary hunting weapon, of course - but back-up/protection and possible up close work for hogs. I'm looking at hard-cast bullets in the 270-280 gr. weight.

Thanks!

Rancho Loco

I'll assume by "back-up/protection" you are referring to hunting situations and not personal protection against two legged varmints. The following loads are ok in my 4" Anaconda (which is hell for stout BTW) but I suggest you reduce them and work up loads as is always recommended.

Practice/plinking loads;

240 gr cast SWC
6 gr Bullseye/760 fps
7 gr 700X/938 fps

Winchester 246 gr LRN Factory/676 fps

Lee 200 gr 429-200*
6 gr Bullseye/860 fps

Lyman 429421 255 SWC*
8.5 gr Unique/926 fps

Rompin' stompin' loads;

225 gr cast SWCGC
22 gr 2400/1309 fps
23.5 gr 2400/1396 fps
25 gr 2400/ 1445 fps

Lyman 429470 270 gr SWCGC*
23 gr H4227/1157 fps

Hornady 240 XTP
23.5 gr H110/1189 fps

PMC 180 gr Factory HP/1494 fps

There are a multitude of loads out there but the above will give you an idea. Those marked with the "*" are my most used loads. I would suggest that the 429470 load and the Hornady XTP would fit your criteria. Again, start low and work up.

Larry Gibson

Yep, back-up/protection would apply to "finishers" some tunnel work, and large kitties..

Keep the info coming gentleman - this is very useful.

Cheers.

Rancho Loco: Is your Tracker ported?

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
Hornady 240 XTP
23.5 gr H110/1189 fps

I have found that 23.5 grains of H110 under a 240gr bullet works best in just about everything!

I prefer the Sierra 240JHC ....

quote:

Originally posted by skid2964:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
Hornady 240 XTP
23.5 gr H110/1189 fps

I have found that 23.5 grains of H110 under a 240gr bullet works best in just about everything!

I prefer the Sierra 240JHC ....

Can't argue with that bullet as I've taken a couple feral goats and black tail deer with it out of my 6" Hawes some years back. Can't remember whether I used H110 or H4227 at the time. I got excellent expansion and penetration. For this thread though I only post what I had shot and used in the 4" barrel. I just wanted to stay with the original question and provide information which I knew worked within those parameters.

Larry Gibson

I have shot too many deer with the 240 gr bullets to trust SOME of them on a large pig or bear. Any bone hit sure loses penetration fast. There are some that do not expand too fast though. They must be chosen with care and only experience will tell you what will work EVERY time. It gets even worse with the lighter bullets in that most are made to expand for very light game or people shooting. From what I understand the pig has a very tough covering over the shoulder, heart area. Hit it with some bullets and you will be running fast.
I still say that any human or animal hit with a cast boolit with a big flat meplat will not argue with you. Neither will one hit with something like the 300 gr XTP. The problem is that how do you chose a light bullet that will work under any condition from some drug grower to a 300 pound pig. How do you know which will work unless you test them under actual conditions. Do you guys go out and shoot people and then pigs and bears to make sure the bullet works or do you read about it? I choose to err on the side of penetration no matter what the target is. A little expansion along with tremendous penetration is fine but a bullet that opens right now will stop on bone or tough muscle. No thanks! A WFN boolit that hits a drug grower and the other three jerks behind him is my way of thinking. Now, you do not have to change loads for the pig or bear.

as for pigs (300gr bullets) .... 18.0gr of AA no.9 works good under all of them. I like the Hornady 300gr XTP


I shoot this out of my 5.5" Redhawk, very accurate.

It is a ported 4" Tracker...So far it's been a fun shooter with off the shelf mag-tech .44 sp and .44 mag ammo.

I've already bought a box of Sierra 240 gr JHC's on clearance at the local store, and have some 300 grain cast precisions and speer uni-cores laying around too. When I go pick up my powder (or powders) I'll prolly pick up the JSP gold dots too..

BFR: Some of your points are well taken, but we're not talking about bears. We're trying to help a guy that has a 4" revolver that weighs 34 ounces with a usable barrel length of slightly over 3". It is ported, so using powders like H-110 are going to do some things that I wonder if many here, have actually experienced. I won't belabor all this past this point, but a 300 pound drug dealing criminal pig is much closer in practical terms than a comparison of a bear to the pig that says oink! Shooting bears with a 3-4" .44 magnum kinda magnifies hypothesis, unless you limit your observation to Black Bear, which so far, hasn't been done. I ain't gonna think about these parameters in Griz country, are you?

Rancho: If your revolver was a 4" Smith, or a 4 5/8" Ruger, I would second Skid's recommendation for #9, the slightly faster burn rate and pressure peak charateristics vs. 2400/H110/W296/4100 would be better suited to the 4" tube I have done some development in this area. This all has nothing to do with someones brand or powder loyalty issues. A good many handloaders do not take burnrate and pressure peak into consideration when they begin discussing handloads for short barrels. Some even believe that pressure peaks in the cylinder. There is documented evidence that this doesn't occur unless you're talkng about a cartridge that has a max pressure rating of about 10,000 PSI. Like something on the order of a .32!

You can optimize loads for shorter tubes through powder selection. AA#7 or VV N350 &3N37 are capable of producing all of the velocity you are going to find usable with much more efficiency and with far less muzzle blast. They can also be used in a number of other cartridges where the Magnums can't, but that's not the point.

A lot of the loads being discussed here were developed for longer barrelled magnums. For an objective comparison, look at a manual where Max load velocities were actually chronographed in 4" barrels and things change considerably (An individuals data is not conclusive if the loads didn't achieve equal pressure). The differences in velocity are minimal and in many cases the magnum powder loads require 1/3 or higher powder charges depending on powder used. A great deal of which is wasted and undesirable. Go to www.accuratepowder.com and look at some of the loads and compare them to any data where pressure is listed. AA#9 is comparable in performance to 2400/H110/W-296 and 4100 is equal although not listed in the data shown. It is however, listed in their recent load guides and Accurate works to a pressure of 38,000-39,000 CUP except that some of the heavyweight bullet loads go a little higher. The Pressure limit they use is 40,000 C.U.P.

The point I'm trying to make is that #9 is going to achieve about 100 FPS more velocity at a similar pressure in most cases, but the gun the loads were chrongraphed in was a 7.5" Ruger Redhawk! Compare comparable powders in a load manual that used a 4" test barrel and it will be enlightening.

But, even looking at data for the 270 gr. SPEER Gold Dot from a 7.5" Redhawk, a 20.5 gr. charge of 4100 produced an actual 1405 FPS from the Redhawk, not somebodies test barrel. AA#9 with an 18.5 gr. charge produced 1361 FPS. A 15.6 gr. charge of AA#7 produces 1334 FPS. And 4100 will produce velocity equal to H110 or W296 any day of the week. I'm not arguing powder brands, I'm using Accurate data for a direct comparison because of my recommendation of #7 for your particular application and because the loads are similar in pressure.

The slower a powders burn rate, the less effecient it becomes with loss of barrel length. Not to mention the charge weight difference between #7 and 4100. Which of these powders is likely to perform best in your Tracker that has an actual barrel length of just over 3" and porting that will blow a good bit of that muzzle blast right up through the ports? Which is going to give the most uniform performance and accuracy? Anyone that thinks that the magnum powders will have a velocity advantage in a barrel like that in the 4" Tracker . . . . . .

KLN357, I did suggest to try both slow powders in a gun, but did not recommend them for all purposes or barrel lengths. I was only recommending to be very careful in bullet selection for the use intended. I side with you that a faster powder is better for the shorter barrels.
However, a large hog needs more penetration then a human, deer or blackbear for that matter. If in Grizzly country or hunting elk and larger, the bullet choice is changed again. I was just trying to make clear that if I had the correct bullet for the game encountered, I would not hesitate to use the same bullet on some drug grower. A much different scene then what should be used for home or city protection.
Then again, if the handgun is just used for backup, you still have the rifle as a first line of defense but the bullets in the handgun should be tailored for the game in case that griz is breathing in your face or a pig is trying to take off your leg.

All that go's back to target type powders for the shorter barrels. Faster burn rate for more velocity in the shorter tube.

BFR: Like I said, some of your points were well taken. The meplat mention with cast bullets was, in particular. I use a good number of cast loads, but I don't feel their mandotory as some do. If Rancho, builds a load with the 270 gr. Gold Dot and all the #7 he can handle, I'm pretty sure, he'll be very pleased with the results. The Sierra 250 gr. Tournament master (Silhouette) and other brands of 240-250 gr. Silhoutte, or JSP bullets work just fine for this particular application. If it were a revolver with a 6" barrel, a magnum powder would be used in my load.