...........................

I wasn't there, but have read that he practiced with different revolvers at distances up to 700 yds. Based on that I believe he had a pretty good idea where to hold to put a bullet in the vicinity where he wanted to hit. Yeah, I believe it. I have had guys roll their eyes when I mention shooting running deer with rifles at long range.

I think the phrase "in the vicinity" sums it up. I have read at least one of his books, and he talks about hitting a snow bank etc. at long ranges. So, did he do it, possibly. What I take away from it, is that it is possible to hit large targets with a handgun at long ranges, as long as you know what you are doing and have practiced. No big revelation here. However, back then, it was.
Peter.

I want to believe it, so I will say that yes, I believe he could and did do it.

The deer was wounded, he had a witness, and no one who ever went out and questioned his shooting, questioned after watching him shoot.

I believe it.

I also recall the story I read from another writer where they were out with him on an offshore fishing trip and he shot flying fish with his .44 mag. Good enough for me.

I believe.

Larry Gibson

For those not familiar with the incident, here it is from Elmer's pen.
quote:

Paul Kriley and I hunted up Clear Creek on the right side where it is partly open bunch grass meadows and partly patches of timber. We hunted all day, and although we saw several does at 80-90 yards, one at 60, that I could have killed. We passed them up, as I wanted a buck. Toward evening we topped out on a ridge. There was a swale between us and another small ridge on the side of the mountain slope about 300-400 yards away. Beyond that, out on the open sidehill, no doubt on account of the cougar, were about 20 mule deer, feeding. Two big bucks were in the band, and some lesser ones, the rest were does and long fawns. As it was getting late and the last day of the season, I wanted one of those bucks for meat. Being a half-mile away, I told Paul, “Take the .300 Magnum and duck back through this swale to that next ridge and that should put you within about 500 yards of them. I’ll stay here (the deer had seen us), let them watch me for a decoy.†Paul said, “You take the rifle.â€
“I said, how is it sighted?â€
He said, “one inch high at a hundred yards.†I told him to go ahead because I wouldn’t know where to hold it. I always sighted a .300 Magnum 3 inches high at a hundred and I wouldn’t know where to hold it at 500.
I said, “You go ahead and kill the biggest buck in the bunch for me.†Paul took off, went across the swale and climbed the ridge, laid down and crawled up to the top. He shot. The lower of the two bucks, which he later said was the biggest one, dropped and rolled down the mountain. I then took off across the swale to join him. Just before I climbed up the ridge to where he was lying, he started shooting again.
When I came up on top, the band of deer was pretty well long gone. They’d gone out to the next ridge top, turned up it slightly and went over. But the old buck was up following their trail, one front leg a-swinging. Paul had hit it. I asked Paul, “Is there any harm in me getting into this show?†He said, “No, go ahead.â€
I had to lay down prone, because if I crawled over the hill to assume my old backside positioning, then the blast of his gun would be right in my ear. Shooting prone with a .44 Magnum is something I don’t like at all. The concussion is terrific. It will just about bust your ear drums every time. At any rate Paul shot and missed. I held all of the front sight up, or practically all of it, and perched the running deer on top of the front sight and squeezed one off. Paul said, “I saw it through my scope. It hit in the mud and snow right below him.†There was possibly six inches of wet snow, with muddy ground underneath. I told him “I won’t be low the next shot.†Paul shot again and missed with his .300 Magnum. The next time I held all of the front sight up and a bit of the ramp, just perched the deer on top. After the shot the gun came down out of recoil and the bullet had evidently landed. The buck made a high buck-jump, swapped ends, and came back toward us, shaking his head. I told Paul I must have hit a horn. I asked him to let the buck come back until he was right on us if he would, let him come as close as he would and I’d jump up and kill him. When he came back to where Paul had first rolled him, out about 500 yards, Paul said, “I could hit him now, I think.â€
“Well,†I said, “I don’t like to see a deer run on three legs. Go ahead.†He shot again and missed. The buck swapped ends and turned around and went back right over the same trail. Paul said, “I’m out of ammunition. Empty.†I told him to reload, duck back out of sight, go on around the hill and head the old buck off, and I’d chase him on around. Paul took off on a run to go around this bunch-grass hill and get up above the buck and on top. He was young, husky, and could run like a deer himself. I got on the old buck again with all of the front sight and a trifle of the ramp up. Just as I was going to squeeze it off when he got to the ridge, he turned up it just as the band of deer had done. So I moved the sight picture in front of him and shot. After an interval he went down and out of sight. I didn’t think anything of it, thought he had just tipped over the ridge. It took me about half an hour to get across.
When I got over there to the ridge, I saw where he’d rolled down the hill about fifty yards, bleeding badly, and then he’d gotten up and walked from the tracks to the ridge in front of us. There were a few pine trees down below, so I cut across to intercept his tracks. I could see he was bleeding out both sides.
Just before I got to the top of the ridge, I heard a shot up above me and then another shot, and I yelled and asked if it was Paul. He answered. I asked, “Did you get him?†He said, “Yes, he’s down there by that big pine tree below you. Climb a little higher and you can see him.†Paul came down and we went down to the buck. Paul said the buck was walking along all humped up very slowly. He held back of the shoulders as he was quartering away. The first shot went between his forelegs and threw up snow. Then he said the buck turned a little more away from him and he held higher and dropped him. Finally we parted the hair in the right flank and found where the 180-grain needle-pointed Remington spitzer had gone in. Later I determined it blew up and lodged in the left shoulder. At any rate I looked his horns over, trying to see where I’d hit a horn. No sign of it. Finally I found a bullet hole back of the right jaw and it came out of the top of his nose. That was the shot I’d hit him with out at 600 yards. Then Paul said, “Who shot him through the lungs broadside? I didn’t, never had that kind of shot at all.â€
There was an entrance hole fairly high on the right side of the rib cage just under the spine and an exit just about three or four inches lower on the other side. The deer had been approximately the same elevation as I was when I fired that last shot at him. We dressed him, drug him down the trail on Clear Creek, hung him up, and went on down to the ranch. The next day a man named Posy and I came back with a pack horse, loaded him and took him in. I took a few pictures of him hanging in the woodshed along with the Smith & Wesson .44 Mag.
I took him home and hung him up in the garage. About ten days later my son Ted came home from college and I told him, “Ted, go out and skin that big buck and get us some chops. They should be well-ripened and about right for dinner tonight.†After awhile Ted came in and he laid the part jacket of a Remington bullet on the table beside me and he said, “Dad, I found this right beside the exit hole on the left side of that buck’s ribs.†Then I knew that I had hit him at that long range two out of four times. I believe I missed the first shot, we didn’t see it at all, and it was on the second that Paul said he saw snow and mud fly up at his heels. I wrote it up and I’ve been called a liar ever since, but Paul Kriley is still alive and able to vouch for the facts.

Elmer Keith

Larry, thanks for posting this! It's a fun read!

I think the deer might have a different perspective!
Peter.

What is the apparent size of [said] deer at 700 yards? Has anyone attempted to detect deer, moving or stationary, against similar background at 700 yards -- against any background?

What is the difference in drop of bullet-ammunition used at 675 yards, 700 yards, and 725 yards?

What is resolving potential of 20/10, 20/15, and 20/20 vision on pistol sights used?

Since the shot having been recorded, has anyone been able to replicate it -- knowing the exact distance to target, or only knowing only approximate distance?

I believe he did it...I never got the impression he didn't think there was luck involved, and never got the impression he was saying he could do it again, only that he did it. They didn't have range finders, so I guess the distance was give or take, but I don't think that matters much.

I have made some lucky handgun shots, pretty sure most experienced shooters have. Yup, I believe it was done. dvnv

i believe it it takes practice and i can't do it or even attempt it

I definately believe that Elmer made the shot.. I know a man that made a simular shot on a wounded (wounded by some one else) Antelope and there were 4 or more witneses......

IIRC at the Linebaugh shoot every year there is a long distance shoot out to 600 yards. Again IIRC they shoot a 3 inch X 36 inch planks stuck upright in the ground. I know I have read and seen pictures of said shoot just can't remember if it is in fact at the yearly Linebaugh thing.

I believe it. I have read the accounts of it and I accept and believe it.
Ken

I believe he did it. I know what a good shot can do with a good handgun, and it is truly amazing. Also from reading Elmers account he took several shots before connecting.

Anyone that is willing to put in the practice with a good handgun will be amazed at what they can hit at extended ranges.

Elmer said that when you are realy good at long range shooting with a handgun that you are always close and then you get lucky..

quote:

What is the apparent size of [said] deer at 700 yards

I think Naphtali summed it up (above). Is this a feat or a stunt? What size does an animal 700 yards away subtend on the front sight? Is this repeatable?
peter.

I once winged a flying bird at over 200 yds with a 22 rf pistol offhand. No I couldn't repeat the shot, and I was leading it by probably 40' and had quite a bit of elevation cranked in as well.

An accurate revolver is capable of 2" groups at 100 yds, let's say that works out linearly (I know it doesn't) and that makes for 12" at 600 yds, heck open up the groups to 18" at 600 yds. With accuracy such as that, firing six shots the odds are pretty good that one of those shots will connect on a dear sized target.

The point to Elmers story was that a hunter had wounded the deer with a rifle, and Elmer saw nothing wrong with trying to finish off the deer with his revolver. The fact that he did so at such range was a combination of skill and luck. I'd like to think hunters in the same situation would do whatever they could to finish off a wounded animal.

Keep in mind Elmer spent most of his life outdoors and always with a gun or two handy. He shot more game than most ever have a chance to see and learned to judge range by doing, over and over. He never advocated a shot like this and preferred to hunt with a rifle. This was an attempt to finish off a wounded buck that was also going to help feed the family. If you look back on his life, no contemporary accuses him of telling tales although Jack O'Connor didn't think much of Elmers' choices of caliber.

Yes, I believe Elmer Keith did it. Yes, I believe the Billy Dixon story also. They were exceptional shot.

I also believe that there are folks on this forum that could also make the same shots.

Brian Pierce is making some pretty long shots with a Revolver.I believe that it happened.I met Elmer some years ago at an NRA Show.He looked you straight in the eye when he talked to you.I don`t think he was a liar. OB

Who said he was a liar?

I believe he hit it at 600 yards and at 400,200,100 and first at 50 yards.

Sean

The astuteness of the astutetees is underwhelming.

Count me among the believers.

Kieth was just as open about the incredible shots he made as he was of the shots he didn't make. He didn't sugar coat his stories - just plain told it like he saw it.

"Hell I was There" is a nice read.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
What size does an animal 700 yards away subtend on the front sight? Is this repeatable?
peter.

I don't think it would subtend much with the barrel at a 45* angle!

I have seen shots made at over 300 yards with a revolver (on targets, not game).

It takes practice, and Keith practiced his whole life.

I have no doubt he did it.

quote:

Originally posted by Me_Plat:
Who said he was a liar?

Just about anyone who says he didn't do it.

i believe it.... in shooting IHMSA silhoutte with a .44 mag 10" ruger blackhawk, i could sometimes get 5 out of 10 rams at 200 meters, this with a spotter to see my hits and me shooting on a "good" day...most times i could get 4...i got lucky and hit a ram set at 500 meters, but it took nearly 15 rounds to do it... shooting in the "freestyle" position... with a spotter, i walked the shots into the ram...

I liked Elmer Keith, I like his books, I liked his cigar and his over sized hat. And if he says he did it, who am I to doubt it.....but do I believe it? P.T. Barnum said it best.... and the comparison made by the guy from Texas ?????

quote:

Originally posted by billinthewild:
I liked Elmer Keith, I like his books, I liked his cigar and his over sized hat.

And if he says he did it, who am I to doubt it.....but do I believe it?

P.T. Barnum said it best.... and the comparison made by the guy from Texas ?????

What?
Doubt has pretty much the OPPOSITE definition of believe.

So what you are saying in a rather passive aggressive way is that you do actually doubt him?

If you doubt him, come out and say so.
Have an opinion, but don't be mamby-pamby about it...

quote:

Originally posted by Bull Snake:
If you look back on his life, no contemporary accuses him of telling tales although Jack O'Connor didn't think much of Elmers' choices of caliber.

That's funny as many of O'Connor's contemporaries did not think much of his 270 Win cartridge choice.

Just goes to show you that opinions vary...

I don't think Elmer Kieth would lie about anything, especially not a feat of shooting, he did not have to. I also believe that such a feat is balisticaly possible.

However, what means was used to estemate the range of the deer? All I am saying is that one mans 250 yards is another mans 450 yards.
I don't rember anywhere in the story where a lazer rangefinder was used. I believe that story is true, I would just love to be able to go back to where it happened and put a rangefinder on the landscape to see how fay it was.

Ive been to a couple linebaugh seminars and have done alot of long range handgun shooting and know its easily possible. Ive made shots longer then that but not on live game. Its surprising how well even a beginner can do at long range with a handgun and a little coaching. Given a handgun that ive shot a lot and know and also know the load i would probably be just as apt to hit a 2 foot rock at 500 yards with the handgun as i would off hand with a scoped rifle. But then i shoot a hell of a lot more handgun then i do high powered rifles and never claimed to be a good rifle shot. It certainly is not ethical to shoot at unwounded game with a handgun at 600 yards but then to me it isnt ethical to do it with a scoped bolt rifle either off hand. The deer in Elmers story was a wounded animal that he was putting down and in those curcumstances i surely would try. If you doubt his story in any way go out to a linebaugh seminar someday where you will find some of the best big bore handgun shooters in the world. Watch them for a couple hours and then come tell me youd want to stand out there at 600 yards and let them take a shot at you.

Skill and luck but more skill than luck.
I have shot a SW 29 6 1/2" since the 80's, it is incredible how one can hit javelin metal targets repetedly around 300 meters.
With my SW 610 in 10mm Auto, I often score double "A" @ 100 meters on IPSC targets in double action with a timer running.

Does anyone remember the Bill Jordan magazine article recreating Elmer's shot? I don't recall where it was published, but Jordan used an adjustable target to determine the holdover for a 600 yd shot with a 44. Jordan used the target, something like a bullseye run up a flagpole, and hit a volkswagen repeatedly at 600 yds. Jordan concluded that the amount of holdover was pretty extreme, but with practice it was quite possible to make the shot.

The title of the article was "Elmer's Little Mortar".

John

quote:

Originally posted by jt1:
Does anyone remember the Bill Jordan magazine article recreating Elmer's shot? I don't recall where it was published, but Jordan used an adjustable target to determine the holdover for a 600 yd shot with a 44. Jordan used the target, something like a bullseye run up a flagpole, and hit a volkswagen repeatedly at 600 yds. Jordan concluded that the amount of holdover was pretty extreme, but with practice it was quite possible to make the shot.

The title of the article was "Elmer's Little Mortar".

John

As far as I recall, there was NO holdover. I believe that Keith's method was to elevate the front sight in the notch, and see what he was shooting at.

Here is a quote from the reproduction of Keith's story above:

"I got on the old buck again with all of the front sight and a trifle of the ramp up."