I just got the 2010 Hunting magazine annual and it has several great hunting stories, one of which is a Cape Buffalo hunt with the 500 S&W Mag.

A one shot kill with the 440 grain hard cast bullet. Amazing!

Don't tell the boys on the bigbore forum about this; 45/70 class cartridges are a non-starter when it comes to dangerous game.

I should...just to stir them up! They only hunt with 105mm Howitzers.

The 500 S&W will take them cleanly every time along with the 475 Linebaugh, 500 Linebaugh, 454 Casull, 45-70 and 44 mag.

It is amazing how well this cartridges perform on large game. The numbers just don't tell the whole story.

I did not try a Cape Buff yet, but Asiatic are like a piece of cake for my 500 with 400 SWC hard Cast at 18oo fps. One Shot one Kill,
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Guille

I took one in 2005 in the Mozambique swamps of Coutada 11 with a 440gr. hardcast.

Cape and Water Buffalo have been taken cleanly with the 410GNR with 255gr hard cast bullets @1600fps(454Casull necked down to 41 caliber). Bullet placement pretty much rules the outcome.

they'll all cleanly kill a cape buff, but the big bore boys are actually talking like you're undergunned with a .458 or some have questioned the 460 weatherby. it's all in the bullets boys and the shot placement. once again, lynn thompson proved this ad nauseum in his handgun hunting video.

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
they'll all cleanly kill a cape buff, but the big bore boys are actually talking like you're undergunned with a .458 or some have questioned the 460 weatherby. it's all in the bullets boys and the shot placement. once again, lynn thompson proved this ad nauseum in his handgun hunting video.

Yup, and then they start bloviating about muzzle energy -- paper balistics be damned! If it can get to the vitals, you will have a dead animal on your hands.

Come on boys, cut us Big Bore rifle guys a little slack over here how about it? Not all of us understand the dynamics of proper penetration! Some never will! If you get a bullet to the vitals, and especially a big bore regardless of handgun or rifle, it is going to go down. The key is that first shot, proper thru the lungs, heart or vitals, everything is over at that point, we all agree. Now don't run me off, but I think some of the Big Bore rifle boys don't view a handgun, or 45/70 type cartridge in a rifle as a proper "stopping gun" for this sort of work, in case that first shot is not so good. Now a not so good first shot can be an issue regardless of what it is to begin with, right?

Now I have shot buffalo with 45/70, and the first shot was not so good! I promise you as good as I loved my Marlin Guide at that time, 2002, I did not have enough rifle/cartridge/bullet to do any sort of stopping should I have needed too. Fortunately after about an hour I was able to get a proper lung shot in, and it was over in 30 yards.

Now try not to run me off and tar and feather me! I am on your side remember. Those of you that know me, know I always credit you guys with making the large flat meplat bullets work like wonders in handguns---us dumbass rifles guys are only just now getting there in the last few years! But, should I be out with a 500 S&W and the proper flat nose bullet and mess that first shot up for whatever reason, I still don't think I would have a proper tool for stopping that action, 100% of the time! Will it do the job? Absolutely it will, without question, and has many many times. Proper tool for stopping?

Now, I love to hear about the 500 S&W cartridge killing hell out of everything. Reason is, basically my little 50 B&M Super Short is a rimless 500 S&W in a tiny little bolt gun with 16 inch barrels. Capable of a good 450 gr solid at 1900 fps--I figure plenty good for a buffalo, with a proper first shot! You guys prove that with the 500 Smith! Thanks! So one day when I run out of other things to do, I might want to take my little 50 Super Short and my lever gun in 50 B&M AK and shoot some bigger critters with them, would be big fun I think! But better not flub that first shot I think too!

Anyway guys, a little perspective from one of the Big Bore rifle guys, now let me get behind the couch before things start hitting me in the head!


Michael

No one's going to run you off, Michael!

What is a stopper anyhow? Without hitting CNS, you won't stop an animal that is hellbent on stomping, goring, chewing on you, so it boils down to penetration. So, if my handgun, loaded to a leisurely 1,200 fps can penetrate through a large bovine from any angle, explain it to me again why it is an "inadequate" stopper?

Oh, and Happy Day-After Thanksgiving!

Whitworth

For the most part I agree with you--CNS for sure, the handgun has certainly enough penetration for that, and breaking bones. I am a firm believer in those big flat nose bullets you guys use, penetration to CNS, and bone breaking ability, and that will stop for sure, and they are capable of that.

Where they come up short, my opinion, is in the velocity and transfer of tremendous trauma and shock if not hitting CNS or breaking bones.

We can increase this transfer of trauma in three ways, I have learned, one by velocity, the other by diameter, and the last by bullet choice, or type of bullet.

If one can get this transfer of energy, trauma, in addition to the penetration and bone breaking ability, then you have an adequate stopper. The handguns have the bullet, they have the ability to penetrate, and yes the flat nose bullets do transfer energy for sure, far better than many other designs, I have seen it, but just think if you increased from 1200 fps with that same bullet to 2000 fps and held bullet integrity then what would it do?

This is all I am saying.

Now, I love 45/70, always have, but I can tell you compared to 458 Winchester velocities it comes up way short in the transfer of energy department. The key is that extra velocity being able to impart that energy upon the target. With bigger diameter, and a change of bullets the 50 B&M AK imparts that same energy upon a target, at near the same velocities--1600--1900 fps. I was surprised on the first outing with the prototype .500 caliber rifle, near the same velocity as a 45/70, but hitting so much harder it appeared these animals were getting hit with a 458 Lott? We were all surprised at this and did not expect it.

Now, can this transfer of energy be accomplished at 1200 fps with a change in bullet type? I think maybe it might be possible, and one of the things I am trying to study with some of these NONCON bullets! Maybe when I receive some of the 350 gr .500 caliber bullets I have on order we can try this in some of your .500s? Imparting this transfer of energy, and getting penetration at the same time? Hmmmm, must put some serious thought into this I think! How fast do you think we can run one of these 350 gr .500 caliber brass HPs in a 500 Smith? Don't get hung up on bullet weight, we are test phase now, bullet weight is easy to increase or decrease. The penetration of the remaining slug is what is important, and the energy imparted up front from 3-10 inches or so.

Michael

Don't know how fast we could run up a 350 grainer in the .500 Smith, but if you can get the same bullet in .511 diameter, we have just the tool to significantly exceed the velocity capabilities of the .500 Smith......

David is way behind in his bullet making, so don't know when I will get what I ordered. But when I receive I will send you some to try out and see what you get. Then we will test them!

M

Ross Seyfried took a Cape Buffalo a decade or 2 ago with the 45 Colt, Ross also shot completely through on wth a Westly Richards Long Range Express riffle with a 480 grain hard cat bullet at just under 1400 FPS.

Hell Ted Nugent killed one with a 10mm


They are not armor plated

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Ross Seyfried took a Cape Buffalo a decade or 2 ago with the 45 Colt, Ross also shot completely through on wth a Westly Richards Long Range Express riffle with a 480 grain hard cat bullet at just under 1400 FPS.

Hell Ted Nugent killed one with a 10mm


They are not armor plated

I heard that story on the phone, for about an hour, from Ross Seyfried. Took 5 shots, and, the buffalo almost got him. He got those 5 shots off in two seconds, or so. Wonder how many of us would have had a buffalo on top of us instead of on the ground, pretty much nose to nose?

There was a reason he pushed for heavier bullets, and bigger bullets.

He also designed the .585 Nyati right after that, so he could have a .600 Nitro Express bolt gun, pretty much.

Average penetration on that buffalo was 38"
and, that was NOT all the way through.

Happy Black Friday

I'm surprised a 10MM could launch enough of a bullet to work.

The buff Nugent shot with the 10mm was already half dead from being shot with an arrow earlier in the day.

quote:

Originally posted by Tembo:
The buff Nugent shot with the 10mm was already half dead from being shot with an arrow earlier in the day.

You say he only 1/2 killed him with the 10mm?

I took this Bison with one shot from a 500 Linebaugh shooting a 525 grain WLFN at about 1100 FPS. Te bullet exited




I shot this Asian Buff fist with the 500 JRH with a 425 grain bullit at 1382 FPS as he started to run breaking the on side shoulder support bone and exiting the off shoulder. The next shot was from the 475 Linebaugh with a 420 grain LFN at 1380 FPS and he bullet brokethe off side shouldr support bone and that anchored him

Beautiful Bison.
What did it weigh?

The Bison went about a ton, the Asian about 1500 pounds

Buffalo are funny critters though. The big bore board folks swear that a 458 win mag is inadequate on anything other than deer, but the 454 has dropped quite a few. Personally, I still like the big bore rifle for nasty hunter stomping game.

John

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Tembo:
The buff Nugent shot with the 10mm was already half dead from being shot with an arrow earlier in the day.

You say he only 1/2 killed him with the 10mm?

Or Less.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:
Buffalo are funny critters though. The big bore board folks swear that a 458 win mag is inadequate on anything other than deer, but the 454 has dropped quite a few. Personally, I still like the big bore rifle for nasty hunter stomping game.

John

John, that just means you need a .475 on up -- it won't leave you wanting a rifle!

I think those of us here (as opposed to the big bore forum) agree that a good, heavy hard cast bullet of .45 or larger going 1200 to 1500 fps is a hell of a killer on even very large animals.
But I must concur with the big bore guys that if something goes amiss, it would be very nice indeed to have a Lott or a .470 double as backup, especially if you have an angry, wounded Cape buff coming at you like a freight train 15 yards away.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:
Buffalo are funny critters though. The big bore board folks swear that a 458 win mag is inadequate on anything other than deer, but the 454 has dropped quite a few. Personally, I still like the big bore rifle for nasty hunter stomping game.

John

The 475 Linebaugh with a 420 LFN, the 500 Linebaugh with the 525 grain WLFN and the 500 JRH with the the 425 grain Hard cast will shoot completely through and exit Large mature Bison and Asian Buffalo which are both larger than the Cape
I know this because I have done it and have seen it done by others

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
I think those of us here (as opposed to the big bore forum) agree that a good, heavy hard cast bullet of .45 or larger going 1200 to 1500 fps is a hell of a killer on even very large animals.
But I must concur with the big bore guys that if something goes amiss, it would be very nice indeed to have a Lott or a .470 double as backup, especially if you have an angry, wounded Cape buff coming at you like a freight train 15 yards away.

Bill cal me crazy, but I would be very content with one of my big bore revolvers (475 or 500)

Even when they are hairy and bite back

JWP: I tip my and bow deeply, sir. NICE BEARS!

Are you truly a handgun hunter if you have rifle backup, or just someone who took the first shot?

just curious how deep the commitment runs...

Rich

Are you truely a rifle hunter of dangerous game if you have a rifle back up?

Just want to know how deep the commitment runs

quote:

Bill cal me crazy

I ain't waiting on Bill to call you crazy, Hell JWP-You Crazy!

Not crazy for hunting with the big handguns, just crazy for shooting the damn things! I am a 110% devoted Big Bore Rifle loony nutcase! But get away from me with those big bore handguns, hurt my hands when you shoot them! Make too much noise and fuss, too much recoil, too much everything! I will leave them to you--and I will take a bow to your success, and expertise in the matter, as I have very little to none in this arena. I shot a few things with 45 Colt and have a couple of 454s, but that is it.

Next is where can a fellow go and shoot two bears and two moose? That is getting close to being big fun I think with plenty of shooting.

Next, above I mentioned a couple of ways to get to stopping power, my opinion of course. Velocity--Diameter--type of bullet. You boys might be getting all over the diameter deal with 475 and 500? I can attest for sure there is one hell of a difference in 458 caliber and 500 caliber bullets at the same velocity, say in the 45/70 velocity range. At 1700-1800 fps in many cases the 45/70 is just ho hum. Same bullets in 500 caliber start showing us a different story! So maybe with this jump in diameter it is giving you a tremendous jump in stopping power too.

Whitworth and JWP475, and others who venture where you guys go with the big bore handguns, hammer down, go get them! You have done your homework in this area, your expertise on the matter is being absorbed. I don't intend to put it to use, too much for me! I have to stay on the lower end of the scale with a little weak 45 Colt, I can attest that it does not have the "stopping Power" that we seek, but I will gladly use it if needed of course.

I can tell you about being charged by a wild crazy shot up warthog and stopping him with a couple of pieces of 230 ball ammo out of a Kimber Covert one time! We were doing some pig shooting in South Africa, I think about 2003 or so. Had my Win M70 358 STA, shot at a pig, hit a stick, bullet hit pig sideways in the bottom of the jaw. Pig runs like hell, Michael runs like hell, pig outruns Michael by a good margin. Following up, get a long snap shot at pig, and "zipper" the pigs underside. Off again running, starting to catch up, rifle too long and big, hand off to tracker, snap out the little Kimber and it's off to the races! Catching up pretty good for an old man, at 6 ft pig decides this is enough and turns on me, screeching halt, snap shoot pig in the snout, pig shakes head, stops just long enough for one planted dead between the eyes, game over! I'd say that qualifies as a stopping cartridge, that day for that pig! This was back in the day when a fellow could carry a handgun in RSA. I did not have any rifle backup either! So I figure that moment that day I was a "true handgun Hunter"---Well, maybe shooter is more like it? Regardless of what you call it, it was big big fun! My tracker had no idea I could run that fast!


Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Are you truly a handgun hunter if you have rifle backup, or just someone who took the first shot?

just curious how deep the commitment runs...

Rich

Nah, cuz you don't "need" rifle backup.....



Great story, Michael!

I am pretty sure I have this whole thing ass backwards! I have been using a handgun to back up my rifle?

Gees, some people just can't get it right!

Below see the pig I was talking about, if you look close I think you can see the hole lower in the snout, then the one between the eyes. Make mine a 45acp!


Here is another assist with the handgun!


Michael

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
I think those of us here (as opposed to the big bore forum) agree that a good, heavy hard cast bullet of .45 or larger going 1200 to 1500 fps is a hell of a killer on even very large animals.
But I must concur with the big bore guys that if something goes amiss, it would be very nice indeed to have a Lott or a .470 double as backup, especially if you have an angry, wounded Cape buff coming at you like a freight train 15 yards away.

Bill cal me crazy, but I would be very content with one of my big bore revolvers (475 or 500)

Even when they are hairy and bite back

JWP475:

How did you get TWO bear tags??????

I didn't ha 2 ear Tags nor did I shoot 2 Bears there ere 3 of us on this particulat hunt and the picture show the take for the 3 of us. That was in 88 and I was shoting a 385 grain LFN at between 1300 and 1350 FPS and yes it flatted a Moose and the bear that came in on us while working a Moose kill

heres my take on it. Ive shot 7 bison and a water buffalo now with cast bullets out of 500 line 475 line 44 mag and 50 beowolfs. They will definately kill they do not hammer animals a 1000lbs and larger. Ive actualy shot buffalo with the 500 behind the shoulder and had them contiue grazing like a bee bit them not knowing they were dead until they keeled over. Now i know that the ammount of time it took them to know they were dead was plenty of time for an animal to come and stomp me. Ive also seen them shot with 458s and 416 weatherbys and yes rifles tend to thump them more. even the 4570 loaded up on the warm side with a cast bullet does thump them harder. Would i hunt something dangerous with a 500 or 475. Yes if i had someone with a rifle backing me up but not alone. You can shoot one or two animals with a certain caliber and drop them and think you really have something but Ive seen enough buffalo shot with various guns to about know what to expect for a reaction. Even John linebaugh once comented about a bison hunt he was on and that he was amazed that bison would walk off after a good hit by one like they werent even hit. Even the old buffalo hunters that used black powder rifles with about the same power level as the linebaughs would start shooting into a heard and put one shot into each animal and move on to another and said very few dropped at the shot. Most wandered a little and dropped dead. I think what fools some people with guns like the linebaughs is when they shoot it they figure that anything that recoils like that has got to be amazingly powerful and in reality your shooting a mild black powder 4570 level load.

Lloyd good information, but hard as hell to read all bunched up Brother....

Lloyd,your exerence with the big bore revolvers on Bison are 180 degrees oppisite of mine. Every one that I have shot or seen shot reacted to the shot imediately and was down in secounds, except for 2. A fellow shot a big bull Bison with a 500 S&W wih the Winchester Platinum Tip Hollow point and it took 20 minutes before that onewas on the ground. Those bullets did not pentrate as well as the wide meplat flat point hard cast nor did they prove to be as effective
The other one was shot with the 500 Linbaugh with 435 hard cast that tumbled and did not give adequate penetration. Other than those2 excptions the results he been superb in 12 or other instances

Lloyd,

I have shot and seen shot a bunch of water buffalo, bison, and cape buffalo over the years with everything from a 30-06, 44 mag., 45 auto, 45-70, 45-90, 50-90, 500 S $ W, .375, 458 win., and even a 450 Dakota. The quickest kill was the brain pan shot at 35 yards with my 45 auto with a hardball load. I was backed up with a 458 Winchester but it only took one shot.

Big critters like this need to loose several gallons of blood before their brains starve for oxygen and they show any effects. My 1874 C. Sharps is the most beautiful rifle I own but bison are unimprressed with the walnut and Doug Turnbul case colors. Even with a 600 grain .512 WFN bullet they wander around long enough to shoot a few times before they lay down. The next one I shoot will be with a 505 Gibbs. Maybe that will be a DRT kill but I am not betting on it. They are fun to chase around on foot and my family loves the meat so more testing is needed. What I want is to convert one of my 1886 rifles into a 50-100-450.

Hey Blake,

I just found a gunsmith in WA state that does conversions. I found a really nasty M71 five years ago for $400. My local guy converted it and put a 30" full octagon barrel and full magazine on it, but it has been plagued with feeding problems. This guy has access to new followers and says he has done over 40 50-110's over the last two years. As soon as he gets mine done and back to me I'll post a report.

About bison, I have killed two with my Shiloh 45-70 with a 500gr hardcast at about 1470fps MV.
Both over 100 yards, and both went down, but got up and made about 15-30 yds before collapsing a minute or two later. The last one was a big bull, over a ton, and I hit him at about 60yds with a 450gr hardcast at 1600fps MV in the head. He sat down, then got up and wandered around for about 5 minutes before I clocked him with a 45 LC 260gr hardcast at about 1100fps MV. It made me think about using my CZ 505 Gibbs on the next one.

I have a Colt Anaconda in 45LC with a 4" barrel. I can get the SSK design truncated cone 320gr bullets about 1200fps, and that should be enough under a hundred yards.

Regards,

Rich


Rich