Hello from Scotland~

I don't own a hand gun ! Ive never fired a hand gun, and i dont have any real interest in them !

But........... I do how ever spare an interest in cast bullets. Over the last year or so i bought a Marlin .444 ss 22" and started casting with the Lee 310 bullet.

To be honest hard cast bullets are rare over here very ,very few people use them and most people think cast bullets are simply low velocity cheap slugs that lead your barrel.

Having pushed my Lee 310 bullet to 1840 f.p.s i know this not to be true !

As of yet i have not hunted any game (deer) with hard cast and dispite hearing about incredible penatration and killing power of wide meplats its still hard to belive. That is when like most hunters in Britain you are bought up on jacketed bullets with high B.C

These hard cast gas checked bullets really are a revolution ! I'm impressed with what ive read of very large game taken with hard cast bullets in hand guns. And figure if you hand gun guys can cleanly kill big game with short barrels and lower velocity than my .444 should be able to take some pretty big game.

Its funny how you hear rifle shooters talking constantly about velocity, it seems to consume our every waking moment if its not doing 3000 f.p.s then it won't kill game ! There are so many different mind sets within the shooting world.

Im slowly gaining "faith", my 310 gn bullets are now grouping 2.5"-3" at 100 yards with Ashley gost rings......The proof of the pudding will be when i take my first game with it.

I would be interested in hearing your views on hard cast and velocity im guessing you hand gun guys look at things from a slighlty different angle than us rifle shooters........

Englander

[ 06-19-2003, 22:51: Message edited by: Englander ]

"Ive never fired a hand gun, and i dont have any real interest in them !"

Seems to me the first part of the sentence could very well explain the second.

Try it, you might like it.

Leighton

Englander, I`ve read your posts at the marlin and beartooth forums, so I`ll say hello to you and hope that I can help.I have taken 2 elk and 2 deer with 44 mag handguns. All were 1 shot kills and the animals never went anywhere.2 were with hardcast bullets and 2 were with JSP. The hardcast bullets penetrated all the way---- the animals dropped like they were hit with the hammer of Thor. I too have a 444 and although I use JSP they hit very hard, very hard. Some 25-30 yrs ago I started hunting with a muzzleloader, all my family said it wouldn`t kill very well. The first 3 deer I harvested with this rifle dropped right where they stood. I was of course using a lead minie ball at about 1200 fps! so, yes sir lead projectiles will do the job if you do your part. Its been good to talk to you. ---- good hunting, Don

[ 06-19-2003, 23:22: Message edited by: Don44 ]

Greetings from the other side of the pond,
Welcome to the world of hardcast bullets! A 300 grain bullet at around 2000 fps is what Teddy Roosevelt called Big Medicine when used in his 405 Winchester model 95. Granted, the sectional Density of the .405 bullets would penetrate better than your .430 bullets, but the power would be similar. Teddy shot everything that Africa had to offer with that 405. I can't think of anything on your Island that won't fall to your 444 with those cast bullets.
By the Way, can you own pistols in Scotland?

regards,
Graycg

I have been a fan of and owned 444s for nearly 20 years. Since I have also cast for the 44 handguns I have experamented a fair bit. In the last 444 I used a cast bullet of 235gr out of a 240 mould. I used wheel weight material with just enough pure lead to bring the bullets up to the 235 mark from about232gr. I don't know how they would work on game animals but 2 of my rounds were used by a friend to defend himself and 3 guests from an armed homeinvader bent on mayhem. The perps last word was reported to be "wuff",likely due to the 2 centre of mass hits from a 444 at about 10 ft. The problem with hard cast bullets would seem to be therefore,overpenetration. It is fun to experiment with though isn't it. derf

Thank you all for your input. Its good to look at things from different angle some times.........

Hand guns are illegal in all of Britain except Northern Ireland , funny the place is crawling with murderous terrorists

Us law abidding mainlanders are now only trusted with black powder pistols and hand guns with a barrel over 12"

I hope to try black powder one of these days, but im a hunter and its illegal to hunt with hand guns here anyway

Englander

It's not too late to emigrate!!!

Greetings Englander,

It has been a while since we last spoke, hope you and your family are well.

Once upon a time, cast bullets were the only game in town so to speak. I have used hard cast bullets, both of my own production and commercial, out of several different calibers. Provided the bullet is not hard to the point of being brittle, a cast bullet usually will out penetrate an equally weighted jacketed hollow or softpoint bullet. There are exceptions, so I can not say always.

I have used .357 and .44 magnums as well as the .454 Casull and .44 Special with cast bullets to take several deer. The performance was quite adequate. Another plus I have found when using cast bullets is the reduced amount of bloodshot meat present.

Expansion need not be much of an issue when the bullet used is nearly one-half inch in diameter at the start. So enjoy your cast bullets and if I ever get over to Scotland, I like my venision steaks medium with a nice merlot.

All the best,

Rob

I have shot a few cast in my 405 but not spent a lot of time on accuracy with it yet. I would also like to try cast in the 444 but just havent had time. One of these days....

Englander... I recall your name from MarlinTalk, too. Hard cast bullets, whether shot from a handgun or levergun, do indeed fair well in hunting situations. I'd suggest reading Ross Seyfried's articals, as he occasionally speaks of this (Rifle/Handloader magazines).
Last fall, I shot a caribou with 315 grain TC hardcast bullets from a 45LC levergun that a friend made (El-John-O, from MarlinTalk). These bullets are way too much for caribou, much more suited for larger game - the tissue/bone damage was severe! I won't be shooting caribou with such heavy bullets anymore, I'll likely use lighter jacketed soft points. I sort of wonder if the 310 grainers you'd be using may be a bit too much for the deer you intend to shoot. I suppose you'll find this out when you actually do the hunt. I imagine a deer can't be too dead, either way! Good luck. ~~~Suluuq

My experience with cast bullets has been nothing but good. I have cast and shot cast roundballs in my .50, .54, & .62 cal. flintlock muzzleloaders and have taken roughly 20 deer with them and none getting out of site. I have taken two elk, one 700lbs and the other 550lbs with cast .54cal roundballs. I did cast for my .357 and 45LC but got tired of putting the gas checks on them. I trade for two different cast bullets now. I use a 250grn Keith style in my .45LC and a 300 grn Keith style in my 14" 45-70 Contender barrel.
The 45LC has taken two deer at 60 & 85 yds and busted up trees after passing through them. Dropped both after shoulder hits and spinning them 180 degrees. The 45-70 is another story. I get about 200fps more from the cast bullets than jacketed and I shoot a healthy load of IMR4198 at 1550fps. I took a 100lb doe last fall just after getting the barrel and loading some rounds for it. I hit her in the right shoulder, spun her almost 360 degrees and put her feet straight up from 60 yards. A pretty good mess of the shoulders. Won't do that again. I will put it center body and take out the lungs. My old hunting buddy has been hunting deer in Oklahoma for 40 years with an old 45LC and cast bullets. He won't use anything but that an a couple of bows he made. I'm loading some 300grn Cast w/gas checks I just got for my 45LC to try for accuracy and maybe a good hog hunting load for my new lease with many hogs running around tearing up the pastures. I will keep you informed. Cast will do the job.
Mike
Norman, OK

[ 07-02-2003, 05:39: Message edited by: McClura ]

Englander, you'll have no trouble with your cast bullet combination. Screaming velocity is not a requirement for effectively killing anything and never was. I'd be a rich man if I had a dollar for every cast bullet I've shot from rifles AND pistols. Before I got foolish and traded it off, I used to hunt deer with a Marlin .357 Magnum. Final score was 9 deer. All one shot kills. All shot with cast bullets. Only one of the nine so much as took a step after being hit.

The 444 with a 310 gr cast bullet is MORE than a match for a deer. Hit him in the boilerroom and he will go home with you.

Speaking of hard cast...some shooters IMHO make too much of casting bullets as hard as humanly possible. Long ago I thought this was necessary. It isn't My best and most effective bullets were not much harder than pure wheel weights. It is possible to get cast bullets so hard they will often penetrate game almost like an AP unless they strike a major bone. This is NOT good.

Just cast a reasonable bullet and enjoy. You'll laugh at yourself for ever doubting they will work.

"Us law abidding mainlanders are now only trusted with black powder pistols..."

Very interesting, Englander! This answers a question that I had.

If you are not dragged away in the middle of the night for daring to possess....oh....say...an 1860 model Army .44 revolver....you could have a meaningful self defense handgun yet.

Course, back in the old country, I understand you don't have a right to self defense. If you ever had to use it, you might need to take up some midnight gardening. Now I know why you Brits are so hot for your gardens....