I tried some of the Hodgdon loads for the 40 S&W using their Longshot powder, and it results in 10MM auto performance at safe pressures. Recoil and accuracy are best with 155 gr HPs at 1350 fps for 628 FPE in my CZ 75 with 4.7 inch bbl.

Longshot in the .40 bore is a bit faster than 2400, with the energy of bullseye...now I know how they get 1550 fps with 1&1/8 oz of shot in a 12 GA at 11,000 psi!

Sounds like you may be on the right trail.

Sabot where did you get your data from? The little free booklet I picked up yesterday doesn't even list the 155 gr for the 40S&W.

Hiya Sabot,

I am using Unique powder in my .40 S&W with the 155 gr hollowpoint, and I am getting over 1300 fps. and accuracy to boot!!! I don't know how Longshot compares to Unique, but it must be close.

Sooo... .357 mag ballistics out of a semi-auto, with a bigger hole to boot.

40 S&W is as available as fleas on a country dog

Guns for .40 S&W are also, and with the police surplus market, are cheaper than snot.

Standard .40 S&W rounds can be fired for practice/defense.

As little big game hunting as I'm planning on doing, this sounds like it might be EXACTLY the ticket.

I'm a huge CZ75 fan. How is your CZ75 holding up to the extra hot ammo?

I used the Hodgdon year 2000 manual and interpolated between the 180 and 135 gr loads to get some idea of where the 155s would start. The manual indicated 8.0 grs for the 180 at 1159 fps and 32,300 psi and 12.0 grs with the 135 at 1480 and 32,400 psi. These were for a 4 inch bbl, and mine is 4.7. I duplicated the 1.125 COL. The interpolation is based on bullet length more than weight.

The CZ 75 digested all of the loads I tried without a whimper, including some at 1445 fps, but I assumed they were too hot as they were approaching the 135 gr velocities, and there are no free lunches. Recoil was noticably up, but the brass looked fine.

I plan to refine seating depth and charge weight to get and avereage of 1310 fps with the 155s for an even 600 FPE.

My instincts tell me that a 180 gr lead bullet can safely be driven over 1200 fps in my barrel, so its getting into close rage hunting territory. Might even get there with 180 plated bullets as they are much shorter than the 180 XTP listed by Hodgdon at 1159 fps.

Unique and Longshot are pretty far apart on the burn rate chart, with Longshot listed right next to 2400 and Unique up with Universal Clays. Max charge weights for Longshot are 50 to 70% higher than Universal Clays.

I get a little nervous using Unique powder for hot loads. You can get some pretty extreme variations in the charges you throw. Be very careful hot rodding the 40 S&W. It can be done, but there is absolutely no margin for error.

What pressure testing equipment are you using?

Sorry guys, I dug out my papers and saw that I was actually getting 1150 fps with 155 gr. using 7.3 grns. of Unique....Not the 1350 fps that I originally posted. Don't know what I was thinkin the night I posted that!!!!

I must say in fairness to Unique, it has always been quite reliable and accurate when staying within the published load limits. I don't use it for hot loads for the .357, I would consider them middle of the road loads for varmint and target shooting.

I worked this load up for the .40 S&W about 6 years ago, and I am sure more load info has been published since I worked this one up. It seemed that Unique was giving me about the max velocity listed for the 155 gr. load at that time. The only drawback to it is it is dirty as hell. I felt I had a good load when I found most of the fired brass in a 2ft circle about 5 feet from where I was standing. I have found no evidence of high pressure with this load I have given.

If your getting 1350 fps, and it cycles smoothly and managably, you have found an excellent load indeed!!

Sorry, I am not using pressure equipment...just staying within Hodgdon guidelines and watching for traditional signs of high pressure. Cycling is good, and primers are not flat with no unusual case marks or bulges.

Longshot does require a firm taper crimp to give consistent velocities but NOT mag primers. Of course as you approach 10MM velocities, you get 10MM recoil, so there is no free lunch here.

For a clean powder try Universal Clays at 1 gr less than Unique. You will duplicate the velocity and drop recoil.

Sabot,

I shoot the 40 and am a true fan but do not feel it is wise to drive this round so hard. The 40 is a very high pressure round for an auto pistol anyway.

I know that this is listed data, but as you have stated, with near 10mm ballistics comes 10mm recoil. Also, comes 10mm stresses on the handgun. I would be curious how your frame will hold up at these velocities.

Of course replacing the factory spring with a few pound heavier one would help alot as long as reliability was good.

From the 10mm loads I have developed for my customers, 1350 fps with a 155gr bullet in a 10 mm seems quite sedate, especially in a full size auto.

Sadly, factory 10 mm ammo has been down loaded by most of the ammo manufacturing companies, far below its top performance levels.

Anyway, as long as your frame will hold up to the pounding, sounds like a great load in the 40, I would just as soon drop velocity to 1250 fps, save on the handgun, and have much quicker recovery times.

Just my opinion though!

Good Shooting!!!

50

fifty driver -

Good advice, indeed. My best controll actually comes at about 1200 fps with the 155s. The heavier spring is a good idea if I stick with the Longshot load, but that would probably be a hunting application anyway. I get very light recoil with Universal clays at 1165 fps and my highest scores are with that powder.

I'm going to have to echo the cautions of others here. Speer, and others, point out that handguns, or their brass, don't indicate high pressures as reliably as rifles do. Reading brass has been pushed for years by the rifle crowd as the way to tell if you are safe. Lately, with more sophisticated testing equipment, we've found that this isn't true.
The 2000 Loadbook I have doesn't have Longshot data. But it does have other Hodgdon's data. I note the test pistol, or equipment, isn't noted. I have also noted that some of the data out there is more of an estimate than hard tested data. All of which is grounds for caution.
The other is that I've seen this bussiness of "the miracle powder" before. And been sucked into it. Only to learn that I was shooting stuff that was far too hot.
My data shows the 10mm meets, or exceeds these levels with few powders and just barely. All the data I have has lots of cautions about how you load he 40 and the 10. All advise caution as both rds. go critical easily and fast. E

Sabot,

What game do you intend to hunt with your 40 S&W? I am not starting a flame here, I am curious and this is why I ask.

It is common opinion that the 357 Mag is marginal but adiquate for light deer at close range and I would fully agree with these comments as long as a good, stout bullet is used, no HP's of any kind please.

If one flips though the pages of most modern loading manuals, the 40 S&W will drive a 155gr nearly as fast as the 357 will a 158gr.

Here are a couple comparisons to look at.

Speer #12 manual

Top 158 gr 357 Mag loads out of a 6" S&W M19
N110 15.0gr 1253 fps
H-110 15.5gr 1217 fps

Top 155 gr, 40 S&W loads out of a 4" S&W M4006
Blue Dot 11.0gr 1221 fps
Unique 8.0 gr 1207 fps

Hornady #5
158 gr, 357 loads in 8" barrel
Win296 16.0gr 1250 fps
H-110 15.6gr 1250 fps

155 gr, 40 S&W loads in 4" barrel
Blue Dot 10.0gr 1200 fps
Power Pis. 8.6gr 1200 fps

Now let me say that I feel a 357 Mag really does not come into its own unless it is loaded to 40,000 psi in a large frame revolver such as a Blackhawk. When loaded to this level, the 40 S&W can not even come close to its hunting performance.

But, it would seem that modern, lower pressure 357 loads and top 40 S&W loads are ballistic twins at the ranges they would be used at.

In my book, velocity means very little anyway. In handgun hunting there are but three things that will drop game quickly. They are:
1) Placing your bullet accurately!
2) Having enough bullet weight and bullet integrity to provide adiquate penetration to reach vitals.
3) Have a large enough bullet diameter to disrupt enough vital tissue to cause a quick clean kill.

Velocity means very little in handgun hunting.

Just curious what you plan to use your 40 on, I would like to know how it performs on game!

Good Shooting!!

50

Thanks, everyone, for all the thoughtful and useful comments. They are right on.

I really don't know what to make of the Longshot data either, except that the same manual lists 9.5 grs in the 10MM with 180 gr Sierra JHC at 1287 fps at 34,800 psi. The next fastest load is 1127 with 9,4 grs of HS6 at 35,800 psi.

The 12 GA 1 and 1/8 oz load does 1575 fps at 11,000 psi...again WAY up there in velocity with a safe pressure.

It may be that they engineered a fairly dense flake shotgun powder with a flat pressure curve...I just don't know. Regardless of pressure, this may still beat the gun up just from the power generated, as noted above.

The hunting application would be deer at bow distances...certainly inside of 40 yards. I plan to work with 180 gr lead bullets with appropriate meplat at about 1150 fps. My back up will be the Ruger PC4 carbine with 180 gr Gold Dots at 1450 fps if the perfect pistol shot does not eventuate.

The P4 shoots the 155 gr Gold Dots 1650 fps with Longshot, but these are too explosive...a dandy entry rifle for the police if they are interested in something half the cost of stubby ARs in 223 that take the same magazines as their Ruger side arms. Comes with ghost Ring sites and is 32 inches long.

No equipment... then your just guessing and rolling the dice. Your risking your personal safety and your gun for nothing. You have nothing to gain by making your bullet go 100-200 fps faster, but have lots to lose.

I take it as a good sign that I get the same velocities with the same charge weight and components that the Hodgdon Manual has published.

Sabot, I must say the 180 grain Pro Load(1200fps) Gold Dot I used on a whitetail at 30 paces worked very well. Good luck.

I'd be interested if Longshot has application to the full-length 10mm Auto round.

My post above was in reference to the 10mm not the 40 S&W. whoops

Okay, lets say that your load is within reasonable pressure limits. Doesn't the added velocity increase the slide velocity also? Would a heavier spring and recoil buffer work to keep the slide from battering the frame? This is why I've always wondered about hotrodding autos.

Just curious, why is 40/10mm so important on this thread? It is only an auto round and will not reach the realms of 41 Mag and up. I love autoloaders but am realistic enough to hunt or use as a back up a revolver at SAFE BUT MAX LOADS. These revolvers will do the job better at a helluva better platform with higher velocities, bigger bullets and better pressures.

I, for one, do not have revolver of any kind.
The option to use a pistol already in your arsenal is more favorable on the wallet than having to go out and buy one that you may never use.
With appropriate handloads there's nothing wrong with a 10mm, also there is now factory ammo that is rather potent for an autoloading cartridge.
From double tap ammo :
Their "hunting load"
Bullet : 200gr XTP/JHP
Ballistics : 1250fps/ 694ft./ lbs. - Glock 20
Their "dangerous game penetrator"
Bullet : 200gr FMJ/ FP
Ballistics : 1270fps/ 715 ft./lbs. - Glock 20
One can't expect the 10mm to surpass a 41 magnum, though it's only 200 fps behind, it certainly is no slouch in the energy department.