Gentlemen, I propose a topic for serious discussion.

There is a lot of knowledge here in the Handgun section of AR.

So Please, without any personal attacks, I would like us to discuss the following.

With the "Elmer Keith" 44 Mag load of a 240/250 SWC at 1200fps as a basis...

What do you feel is this loads limit for Handgun hunting, and how much more effective in the field, on actual game, are the common Super Big Bores.

In your reply discuss not only the effective power of the different calibres but of the recoil as well.

Also for this discussion, I am concerned with revolver type cartridges, not Hand Cannons [breakopen and bolt actioned handguns] as I consider them a different "animal".

Elmer Keith would have a hay day with all the new rounds out today.

You are going to get a wide array of answers here, you are going to get the guys that believe in everything John Linebaugh has out on the subject. There is nothing wrong with that, it has worked well.

Now I have taken a few black bears with some big bore revolvers, I shot one black bear with my 500 Mag with a 370 gr. hard cast bullet going 1900 fps, the exit wound was about the size of my fist. I recently took a black bear with my 510 GNR with a 350 gr. bullet at 1230 fps and the entrance hole and exit hole was the same size. Both bear died very quick and recovered in 25 yards or less. The key was shot placement.

As for the recoil, the 500 Mag with the load I use, has a lot more felt recoil over the 510 GNR. Recoil is different for everyone, some guys can handle more recoil than others, it is your personal limit that you have to live with.
Effective power, now that is a subject that has caused a lot of discussion on this forum. I subscribe to energy having a lot to do with effective power. There is a combination of, speed, bullet weight and bullet design(construction) along with the amount of energy and penetration, that make's a bullet perform correctly.

Even though the 44 Mag is a great round, I prefer larger diameter holes in my game. My hunting revolvers start at 45 Colt up to the 500 Mag and 510 GNR and a lot in between.

I would have to say, any revolver in the 44 Mag and up, will take a large percentage of game with the proper set up. There is not one perfect set up, most of the common Super Big Bores, will do anything we ask of it within reason.

Shot placement is the biggest factor in handgun success, in my opinion.

The Keith is fine for deer or under. Most don't have a large enough meplat, need some expansion that will limit penetration nor are most heavy enough for really large game.
Yes, they have killed large animals and will continue to do so in expert hands. The same as moose being killed with a 30-30.
I like to err on the other side of the coin, big, heavy WLN or WFN boolits.
But the main reason I don't use the Keith is lack of ACCURACY! Elmer designed the boolit when softer lead was standard and handgun power was not there. It had severe limitations and still does. Then every company thought they could change the original any way they wanted to.
My opinion of the Keith is that they LOOK nice when holding a round in your hand.

By the way, I have been sent at least 20 or more Keith style boolits for the .44, .475 and 45-70, all the way to 400 gr's. Not a single one has shown any accuracy beyond 25 yd's.
I do not believe any of them will match a forcing cone and stay straight.
The truncated cone boolit aligns itself for a straight trip down the bore.
Look at every jacketed bullet today---See any Keith bullets?

The .44 Mag. using a 240-250 gr. hardcast SWC ( or jacketed bullet, for that matter) @ 1200-1400 fps is quite adequate for North American game up through elk. Obviously it has been used successfully on polar and brown bear, as well as bison and moose, too, although I have not done so, nor would I choose to. I find .44 Mag. recoil to be comfortable.
FYI, Keith's load of 22 gr. of 2400 has run about 1300-1400 fps out of all my guns, rather than 1200 fps.
In my case, I have chosen to use a .454 FA on several african safaris after I lost a kudu in 1990 using a .44 Mag...probably with a poor hit...can't be sure, 'cause we didn't find him.
For larger game, such as buffalo, bison and bears, I have chosen to use FA's in .475 Linebaugh and .500 WE. The extra power level is satisfying, and frankly I prefer the .475 above all others ( a 400 or 420 @ 12-1400 fps, depending upon the gun ). However, with the increased power comes significantly increased recoil...perhaps much more than some people are willing to live with.
I prefer to run most of my revolver loads @ 1300-1400 fps, to make the trajectory of each similar to each other, with the exception of the .454, which I run a bit faster.
To summarize, the mega-bores can kill larger game faster in my experience, but at the cost of significantly greater recoil in similar weight guns. I use them because I wanted to learn to do so, and because I truly enjoy them. The .44 Magnum needs no apologies made for it, because it is all most revolver hunters will ever need for nearly all the hunting they will ever really do.

I don't think the meplat is wide enough, and think 240-250 grain bullets are on the light side, but I too think that Elmer Keith (God rest his soul) would be thrilled by the wide array of big-bore options that are avaialble today. Obviously we've come a long way. Also what should be obvious is that the "Keith load" was good enough to take all game it encountered, but again, we have come a long way. There are better options available to us now and if you cast your own bullets, it won't cost you any more to use a better design. I know, why fix what isn't broken, but why use a carburetor when you can have fuel injection at the same relative cost (sorry for the automotive metaphor, but I'm a motor-head from way back!)?

Since John Linebaugh was mentioned rather derisively, it is important to note that the man is a pioneer in big-bore handgun development. He made real big-bores (above the commercially available .44 mag and .45 Colt) a reality when he gave us the wonderful .475 and .500 Linebaughs. Big, heavy bullets at moderate velocity.

I loaded and used the Keith load (240 grain SWC over 22 grains of 2400) extensively many years ago, and it worked, but again, we have many more options available to us and the only really limiting factor is the individual on the trigger. How much can he/she really comfortably handle, because this is really what it is all about. All of the "power" in the world won't do you a damn bit of good if you can't shoot the gun well enough to put your shot in the 10-ring of the animal -- so to speak.

I don't use a much heavier bullet in my .44s (just shy of 280 grains), but this is only to preserve my M29s. If they were a little stronger, I would give them a constant diet of 300-320s...... I am a firm believer in heavy for caliber, wide meplat bullets at moderate velocity.

Many folks believe in ME as the measure of a round's ability to kill well, and without opening that can of worms, let me just say that we are using the wrong platform to extract muzzle energy. Penetration is the key. If you can reach the vitals, you can kill it. Like Keith, I too like two holes -- they bleed more than one!

Sorry for the rambling, I am only on my second cup of coffee.......

quote:

Originally posted by kenoneill:
The .44 Mag. using a 240-250 gr. hardcast SWC ( or jacketed bullet, for that matter) @ 1200-1400 fps is quite adequate for North American game up through elk. Obviously it has been used successfully on polar and brown bear, as well as bison and moose, too, although I have not done so, nor would I choose to. I find .44 Mag. recoil to be comfortable.
FYI, Keith's load of 22 gr. of 2400 has run about 1300-1400 fps out of all my guns, rather than 1200 fps.
In my case, I have chosen to use a .454 FA on several african safaris after I lost a kudu in 1990 using a .44 Mag...probably with a poor hit...can't be sure, 'cause we didn't find him.
For larger game, such as buffalo, bison and bears, I have chosen to use FA's in .475 Linebaugh and .500 WE. The extra power level is satisfying, and frankly I prefer the .475 above all others ( a 400 or 420 @ 12-1400 fps, depending upon the gun ). However, with the increased power comes significantly increased recoil...perhaps much more than some people are willing to live with.
I prefer to run most of my revolver loads @ 1300-1400 fps, to make the trajectory of each similar to each other, with the exception of the .454, which I run a bit faster.
To summarize, the mega-bores can kill larger game faster in my experience, but at the cost of significantly greater recoil in similar weight guns. I use them because I wanted to learn to do so, and because I truly enjoy them. The .44 Magnum needs no apologies made for it, because it is all most revolver hunters will ever need for nearly all the hunting they will ever really do.

Oh, and one more thing, I think Ken is spot-on here........

Opinions vary, I am quite fond of the 240 Keith in my 44's loaded either with 21.0 grains of Herc 2400 or loaded down with Unique. I've shot silhouettes many times and been in the mid 30s with revolver, so I'm getting decent accuracy past 25 yards with it; or I wouldn't have been hitting turkeys with the load. All you IHMSA shooters know what I'm talking about.


I've taken only 26 whitetails with my .44 mags using both cast and jacketed bullets weighing 240 grains. I've noted no difference in performance between the Keith design and the LBT, these are whitetails we are talking about however.

Same goes for my .38-44 loads using the Lyman 358429, which is a knock-off of the Keith design. Penetration is great and we don't grow deer big enough to hold that bullet either.

We do some shooting at 5 gallon buckets out to 300 yards with my .500 Linebaugh. The 450 grain "Keiths" I cast work when I do my part.

Recoil is a matter of perspective, because what kicks bad for some doesn't for others. bfr states Contenders hurt him; I don't have that problem. I love my Contenders and have taken several hundred head of game with them. Relatively speaking, increasing to the Linebaugh calibers, the .500 JRH, etc is going to get one an increase in recoil.

Different styles and weights of bullets perform better for some than others. That's why we have the number of choices we do in this area. It's all good; one just has to match the proper bullet to the application.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

Since John Linebaugh was mentioned rather derisively, ...

Not in the least. Don't read into it, and don't make it was it is not.

not sure if i want to open this can of worms, but........i think any of the big bores will kill anything, including the 44 mag. the best penetration in the linebaugh seminars for any of the calibers is similiar when you throw out the extremes that are more likely due to the penetration media differences. for instance, the 500 linebaugh ranged from 32" to 57", the 475 linebaugh from 40-64", the 454 casull ranged from 34" to 56", the 34" was with a softpoint! the 45/70 from 23" to 55" and the 44 mag with an extremely limited amount of rounds tested went up to 42". throw out the extremes and all the above including the 500 smith averaged in the 40's on my database of results listed from seminars over the years. they'll all kill the same stuff with subtle advantages for each round, most of the 500's are what i'd choose for sedate/low pressure penetration. the 454 casull for a low trajectory round, the 475 for the perfect combination of what the 500 and 475 have to offer. the 44 for a lower recoil round/along with the 45 colt in it's various forms, and the big smith's both 500 and 460 are the obvious choices for those that want the best the above have to offer and more if you don't mind a huge pistol. i've seen factory hardcast 475's come apart on a hog (bullet, not caliber failure obviously) and so i based on innumerable hogs, a few bison, and a couple of elk, i think whatever you use a punch bullet on works on anything that walks and i just really haven't seen a difference in the end. i suppose the 500 smith might have an average run time after hit of 4-5 seconds where the 44 might have an average run time of 6-7 seconds if one were to really time it, but practically speaking, no i have not seen a measureable difference but you do need to be pickier with your loads in a 44 mag than in say a 500 smith.

The neat thing about John Linebaugh is that he thinks a .45 Colt loaded to moderate (compared to .44Mag.) pressures and moderately heavy bullet will do a hell of a lot of work on North American game. I like to re-read his .45 Colt article every year or two.

Hello all. One thing not mentioned here is the accuracy potential of the LBTs vs the Keiths. I shoot both extensivly, and have found without exception, the the LBTs are fine out to about 150 yards, where the Keiths maintain stability and acuracy for easy hitting out at 250. As Keith was known for long range handgunning, I believe he knew if you could not connect accurately, all the meplate in the world did no good. Don't get me wrong, I used to make and sell LBTs. (Black Lion Bullets). However for open areas, I find myself using the Keiths more often then not. I have made accurate hits on Deer at 300 yards with a Keith, where I would draw the line ay 150 with an LBT.

Not me. I use a WFN (designed by member bfrshooter) in my .475 Linebaugh that is really accurate at 200 yards and I don't doubt beyond this point, I just haven't tried it past 200 yards. I never got this kind of accuracy with a Keith-style bullet, although accuracy wasn't bad at all. Here is a photo of the WFN. The meplat is 81% of the diameter.

Dwright, you must be the exception. Every 50 yd group with the Keith is always twice as large or larger then the LBT style. I have kept 4 out of 5 shots on a 6" swinger at 400 yd's with my .475 BFR and clang steel to 500 meters with it and my 45-70 BFR. I can NOT do that with a Keith! Even my WFN can hit tin cans at 200 yd's. Even the .44 SRH I had kept 12 out of 12 in a 5 gallon can at 400 meters from Creedmore position. (Meters, not yards.)
I use the Keith for light, plinking, close range shooting only because they save lead.
I still have some .475 Keith boolits, they will be melted down to make real boolits with.

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
not sure if i want to open this can of worms, but........i think any of the big bores will kill anything, including the 44 mag. the best penetration in the linebaugh seminars for any of the calibers is similiar when you throw out the extremes that are more likely due to the penetration media differences. for instance, the 500 linebaugh ranged from 32" to 57", the 475 linebaugh from 40-64", the 454 casull ranged from 34" to 56", the 34" was with a softpoint! the 45/70 from 23" to 55" and the 44 mag with an extremely limited amount of rounds tested went up to 42". throw out the extremes and all the above including the 500 smith averaged in the 40's on my database of results listed from seminars over the years. they'll all kill the same stuff with subtle advantages for each round, most of the 500's are what i'd choose for sedate/low pressure penetration. the 454 casull for a low trajectory round, the 475 for the perfect combination of what the 500 and 475 have to offer. the 44 for a lower recoil round/along with the 45 colt in it's various forms, and the big smith's both 500 and 460 are the obvious choices for those that want the best the above have to offer and more if you don't mind a huge pistol. i've seen factory hardcast 475's come apart on a hog (bullet, not caliber failure obviously) and so i based on innumerable hogs, a few bison, and a couple of elk, i think whatever you use a punch bullet on works on anything that walks and i just really haven't seen a difference in the end. i suppose the 500 smith might have an average run time after hit of 4-5 seconds where the 44 might have an average run time of 6-7 seconds if one were to really time it, but practically speaking, no i have not seen a measureable difference but you do need to be pickier with your loads in a 44 mag than in say a 500 smith.

.


. For myself the seconds factor are the most important ....For me at this time I don,t use optical sights on my revolvers ...so shooting over 75 yards probably isn,t going to happen ...

I do use a revolver for defense against brown ,grizzly and black bear ... .. A second is a long time in when a bear is mauling a person so I want to reduce them as much as possible ....
I haven,t been impressed with the [ killing power ] of the 44 mag with 320 gr CPWLN bullets @ 1200 fps . Tho that load worked , I wasn,t impressed . I now have some 320 gr punch loads for my 454 Casull , and I am going to do some penetration tests with them ....

I think there is a difference between purely a defensive load for use on bears or lion ect and a hunting load /handgun combo .... I think Redhawk 1,s 500 S&W load w/370 gr bullet @ 1900 would have a much more dramatic result on a bear than his 510 GNR load ......
Fist size exit holes equal fight over and dead animals ....While the 510 GNR will get the job done , in a more comfortable to carry pistol the 500 S&W preforms like a 45/70 rifle with similarly constructed bullets ... The 44 mag does not , most of the time ..... My goal is to Learn , and utilize the 454 with similar killing ability to the 45/70 Guide Gun ... Probably thru bullet technology ...

My thoughts are on big game in the 200-300 pound range, i.e. your generic white tail and hog gun, the 44 mag is pretty much all you need.

It's when you consider the larger critters i.e. elk, moose and the great bears that the 44 mag is sometimes a bit lacking.

As I've mentioned before, I find the 480 or 475L loaded to the same level of 400 gr @ 1200 fps to offer a noteable increase in it's ability to create a wound channel and drive deep, but without generating recoil levels that most can't handle.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Dwright, you must be the exception. Every 50 yd group with the Keith is always twice as large or larger then the LBT style. I have kept 4 out of 5 shots on a 6" swinger at 400 yd's with my .475 BFR and clang steel to 500 meters with it and my 45-70 BFR. I can NOT do that with a Keith! Even my WFN can hit tin cans at 200 yd's. Even the .44 SRH I had kept 12 out of 12 in a 5 gallon can at 400 meters from Creedmore position. (Meters, not yards.)
I use the Keith for light, plinking, close range shooting only because they save lead.
I still have some .475 Keith boolits, they will be melted down to make real boolits with.

I will grant you that my experiences differ from most. LOL. I have not tried the LBTs in a BFR. I will say that if I could find an accurate load in my Ruger GP100 .357 for my 180 grain LBT, beyond 150 yards, I would jump on it. Suggestions? I use mostly 2400 thus far. The Keith I've been using will stay in a 6" group at 250 yards when I do my part. The LBT opens up to about 2 feet.

I know it's only 25 yards but this Keith bullet seems to knock out the paint from the center of the 50 yard swinger too. It would score 10 out of 10 on the Hunter Pistol turkeys if the dang turkeys would hold still. This is a .41 Mag with 220 gr. bullets at about 1000 fps.

Those were my experiences with the original 429421 and the 358156 but they have changed them so much over the years and each mold maker has his variations that I don't trust them any more.
It is too tricky of a boolit to fool with by making changes over what Elmer came up with.
Just because it looks like a Keith doesn't make it so.
If you have a design that shoots, never part with the mold.

How about a drop test at 200 yd's with my LBT style, 330 gr boolit from the SBH.
1-5/16".

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
If you have a design that shoots, never part with the mold.

I couldn't agree more!!